S-300P/400 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

franco wrote:

Isos wrote:Well no it's the opposite since Russia is upgrading its old smaller systems like tunguska or Osa systems and replacing its S-300 with S-400.

They have now some 80 S-400.

80 TEL's or battalions?

57 battalions in 2019. I guess it increased since then. Maybe 80 is a bit too much.

Russian wiki says 71 with over 560 TEL.

The S-500 doesn't really replace anything... it is essentially a brand new ABM system that occupies a SAM position above the S-300V and S-300P and S-300F.

They are not likely to buy S-500 in enormous numbers... major military installations and major cities might get a few batteries, and of course most of their larger ships... destroyers and cruisers and carriers will likely carry S-500s to protect them from ballistic and hypersonic weapons, but most of the old S-300 systems were between 75km and 120km range systems and it makes sense to simply replace them with the smaller lighter probably cheaper S-350 system, while the S-400 will essentially be the new 250km and 400km range large missiles that will protect certain domestic and foreign bases and facilities like major airfields and bases etc etc.

S-500 Prometheus: 'Killer of F-35' Has Undergone Combat Missile Trials & is Coming Soon, by Ekaterina Blinova for Sputniknews. 13.07.2021.

The new generation S-500 Prometheus air defence system developed by the Russian arms company Almaz-Antey, the same group that produced the S-300 and S-400, has successfully completed a series of tests including combat missile launches, according to the Commander of the Missile Defence Troops of the Russian Air Force, Maj. Gen. Sergei Babakov.

Speaking to the Russian news outlet Krasnaya Zvezda last week, Major General Babakov elaborated that the S-500 has been developed as a completely new generation of anti-aircraft systems aimed at taking down medium-range ballistic missiles, and, if necessary, intercontinental ballistic missiles in the final stage of their flight path. In addition to this, the S-500 is capable of destroying hypersonic aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles, according to him.

"The S-500 air defence system is capable of destroying hypersonic weapons of all modifications, including in near space, in addition to aerodynamic and ballistic targets, which makes it possible to say with confidence that this system is unique", Maj. Gen. Babakov said.

Russia's new defence weapon can reportedly engage enemy ballistic missiles at a range of up to 600 kilometres and aircraft at about 500 kilometres.

The military official explained that the combat drills involved firing at targets possessing technical specifications similar to modern aerospace attack weapons or those with more advanced capabilities.

According to the major general, anti-aircraft missile crews hone their skills by intercepting both small-sized, low-flying, low-speed objects that mimic unmanned aerial vehicles and high-altitude, high-speed targets that mimic hypersonic missiles.

Moreover, the Russian Air Force has also taken into account the experience gained during the aerial campaign in the Syrian Arab Republic. All incidents of using weapons and anti-aircraft missile military equipment is being carefully studied and employed during the drills, Babakov highlighted.

Russia's military schools and academies of the Ministry of Defence as well as the country's technical universities are training specialists for anti-aircraft missile crews in the nation's Air Force, the major general noted, adding that this year over 1,000 graduates have taken up their duties in this branch of the armed forces of the Russian Federation.

S-500: Successor to S-400 or Entirely New Weapon?

Last December, Russian Deputy Defence Minister Alexei Krivoruchko revealed that the S-500 missile system and the Voronezh long-range early-warning radars could enter service as early as in 2021, following the completion of trials.

Long-range early warning radars are the backbone of any missile defence complex. The Voronezh family, which monitors airspace against ballistic missile and aircraft attacks has three variations: Voronezh-M (metre band), Voronezh-DM (decimeter band), and Voronezh-SM (centimeter band). All three operate in a single system making it capable of determining target parameters and type more precisely.

In early April 2021, Almaz-Antey signalled that the new S-500 air defence system was about to wrap up trials this year. It is expected that the new state-of-the-art Prometheus system will be delivered to the Russian Armed Forces once its combat tests are completed. In the future, the unique long-range air defence complex is due to become become the cornerstone of a unified national air and missile defence system.
On 28 June, during a meeting with top graduates from military schools and academies of the Ministry of Defence, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that the S-500 Prometheus anti-aircraft system, Sarmat intercontinental ballistic missile, and Zircon ship-based hypersonic missiles would soon be put on combat duty along with other advanced military complexes.

The development of the S-500 prompted a heated debate among western military observers who particularly raised the alarm over the system's reported ability to successfully thwart the US aircraft's low-observable (LO) technology: "Of all the Kremlin's latest weapons projects, the S-500 is among Russia's most direct and potent answers to US fifth-generation stealth fighter jets like Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II and F-22 Raptor", the National Interest underscored on 27 May 2021.

"S-500s would be ideal for providing regional ballistic missile defence along Russia's European borders with NATO", the Drive wrote in May 2018. "It is in many ways roughly analogous to the US-made Terminal High Altitude Area Defence system, or THAAD, though the goal is clearly to offer flexibility to respond to more conventional aerial threats, as well".

According to foreign observers, the S-500 can't be called a pure "successor" to the S-400: it's an entirely new weapon, designed to fulfill a broader set of strategic tasks.

https://sputniknews.com/russia/202107131083378120-s-500-prometheus-killer-of-f-35-has-undergone-combat-missile-trials--is-coming-soon/

"S-500s would be ideal for providing regional ballistic missile defence along Russia's European borders with NATO", the Drive wrote in May 2018. "It is in many ways roughly analogous to the US-made Terminal High Altitude Area Defence system, or THAAD, though the goal is clearly to offer flexibility to respond to more conventional aerial threats, as well".

Ahh piss off, THAAD is an anti theatre ballistic missile system designed to shoot down Scuds and upgraded Scuds... S-400 can already engage targets moving at 4.8km/s which means most of the missiles covered by the INF treaty including short and medium and intermediate range (and most SLBMs) ballistic missiles, while S-500 expands the range at which targets can be shot down but also increases the flight speeds to over 7km/s which is ICBM and the longest range SLBM speed.

The position the S-500 occupies is what the Moscow ABM system could only do before in Russian and Soviet service.

To achieve that sort of range and flight performance it is going to be enormous so it will not be cost effective to be using them against normal aircraft... the F-35 could be knocked down by S-400 and S-350 and a range of other missile types... there would be no need to waste S-500s on them as much as the west would hope they do.

More importantly the sensors the S-500 would need to operate in the Russia IADS means all their other SAM systems will be tracking all sorts of targets too, but then the F-35 was not safe before and will be even less safe after the introduction of the S-500 and other items like A-100 AWACS platforms and new fighter aircraft etc etc etc. Even the MiG-35 will be a serious challenge for the F-35.

Long-range early warning radars are the backbone of any missile defence complex. The Voronezh family, which monitors airspace against ballistic missile and aircraft attacks has three variations: Voronezh-M (metre band), Voronezh-DM (decimeter band), and Voronezh-SM (centimeter band). All three operate in a single system making it capable of determining target parameters and type more precisely.

To be clear it is not just the case of using three seperate frequencies to look in three different bands, think of it more as computers combining the output generated by sensors to get more out of a signal than any of the three sensors could achieve on their own.

For instance if it was an optical system you have normal visible light, so digital TV, you could add a thermal channel or three thermal channels... short, medium, and long, and you might add an image intensification channel for low light levels.

Even during daylight hours the thermal channels will add information so they will make humans and animals stand out because of their body heat, and allow the system to see things that are camouflaged for instance. At night the normal video channel becomes much less effective but the low light level image intensification and also the three thermal channels become much more useful.

The point is that a computer processing the images from each channel can tidy up the noise and non important information and can enhance or emphasise anything of interest and using computer processing can find and highlight moving targets and label them so they are easier to keep track of and monitor.

NOT just the IR bands but potentially UV as well in regards to sensors?

If the 300's such as the SA-10 and 12's are potentially being pushed aside I am sure their are plenty of countries willing to pick them up. I like the flexibility of the SA-12 with the two different missile systems. I am unsure of the thin fabric covering the hexagonal radar. How much weather protection would that actually provide? Particular in places that have hail.

It has been operating in Russia for about 40 years now... I suspect the weather protection is pretty good.

Being a tracked system it is intended to operate with armoured forces and go where they go, though obviously not on the front line of contact.

Interestingly the thing to add would actually be an IRST... one of the problems with high power tracking radar or thermal imagers for that matter is that stealth targets would require very powerful search radar beams or good quality thermal imagers to spot the targets and so just using such systems would be like scanning the area in front of you looking for a target through a straw.

The IRST does not have amazing high detail descrimination but it rapidly picks out hot spots and heat targets that you can then use a higher power higher resolution system to them examine and determine if it is a flat rock on the ground that has been heated by the sun or if it is a drone.

IRSTs are also excellent for detecting movement and calculating angles... if you think of most radar objects the radar centre of the object might be outside the actual object depending on the angle you are viewing it from.

I remember a few decades ago I was having a discussion with a chap who claimed an R-27 missile flying through the open cabin on his UH-1 helicopter was realism, ignoring the fact that a proximity fuse would have blown the aircraft to pieces let alone having such a large object moving at several times the speed of sound passing through there probably would have had an effect too...

In a limited conflict the S-500 might be used to take down enemy AWACS and JSTARS aircraft to force them to pull them out of operations, but most of the time they would be ready for any long range ballistic attack, which is what they are designed for.

The 9M96 are smaller than S-300 and the small model with a range of about 60km and the bigger one with a range of about 150km are active radar homing missiles that will be rather potent weapons... the smaller one reaches to about 20km altitude but the bigger one reaches about 30km altitude and they should be able to engage very fast targets with small radar cross sections.

There is a reason the 9M96 will be the standard SAM on future Russian ships in the Redut system.

Honestly I am surprised they have not developed an air launched model of both missiles because their small control surfaces make them rather compact and being air launched their flight range would probably double... the range of the Iskander is about 500km and the air launched Kinzhal is 2,000km so its range quadrupled...

The 9M100 CIWS for the navy on the Redut system is also carried by the land based S-350 equivalent system, and it was suggested to be used in aircraft because its lock on after launch capability meant it could be launched from an internal weapon bay in a fighter or a bomber and then fly to and look for its target in flight. It is another compact slim missile... four 9M96 missiles fit in the tube width of the S-300 and four 9M100 missiles fit in the tube space of each 9M96 missile...

Alexander Lukashenko said that Belarus is interested in the supply of Russian S-400 air defense systems. 

President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko said that his country is interested in the supply of Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems.

"Such a question has been put before the President of Russia, so that S-400s can be delivered to the Republic of Belarus at a reasonable price, on credit, because we don't have such money" – Lukashenko said at a meeting with journalists and members of the public on Monday. "The S-400 is of great interest to us. That is why we are just talking about it, and I am sure that we will get these complexes" – the Belarusian president said. 

Lukashenko said that part of the funds received from Russia as a loan for the construction of a nuclear power plant, Belarus plans to spend on the purchase of modern weapons in Russia. "We saved a lot of money at the nuclear power plant" – he said. "I am ready to say that there is a question about [the amount] from $300 million to $500 million, at domestic prices, this is a decent amount of military-technical equipment, including S-400,this is what we are talking about" – the Belarusian president said.

According to Alexander Lukashenko, he gave the order to ensure the safety of the Belarusian nuclear power plant from the air, and the most modern unit of the Belarusian air defense, equipped with Russian Tor-M2 anti-aircraft missile systems, is deployed in the area of the plant. State Secretary of the Security Council of Belarus Alexander Volfovich, who was present at the meeting with the head of state, said that the plan for the development of the country's armed forces provides for the purchase of at least three more Tor-M2 batteries.

"At one time, we made a bet on the Tor-M2, it is a good weapon, we know how to use it, we know how to modernize it, we know how to restore and repair it" – the President said. He added that an armored vehicle repair plant in Belarus and several private enterprises are repairing and upgrading Russian S-300 and Buk anti-aircraft missile systems.

The armed forces of Belarus are preparing to re-equip their anti-aircraft missile forces and equip them with S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems developed in the Russian Federation, Major General Igor Golub, commander of the Air Force and Air Defense Forces of the country's armed Forces, said in January this year. First Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation of the Russian Federation Andrey Boitsov said at the end of June this year that Russia is ready to consider the issue of supplying S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems and Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile and gun systems to Belarus with a corresponding request from Minsk.

Source: 

But didn't Lukashenko say that Russians have neither brains nor money?

Why would he want their AA system?

PapaDragon wrote:Why would he want their AA system?

Because Lukashenko is trying to sit on two chairs at once. Today, Russians are bad and are to blame for all the troubles of Belarus, and tomorrow he calls us brothers, hoping to get another handout from Russia

This sitting already tore his ass apart.
We can say anything about batka but he is not smart as a rat.
At the moment he is busy licking his wounds along with VVP hand, so I guess some cash flowing back to Russia instead of regular direction is a part of a game.

Apologies in advance. I was reading up on the Abakan missile system. It's a two tube launcher am I correct in saying this is the same two tube launcher we have seen in pictures of past which is based on the S-300?

Was reading that Saudi Arabia is interesting in purchasing. Link below.

States the following

Russia’s Almaz-Antey Corporation unveiled the new 51P6E2 10×10 mobile surface-to-air missile launch platform for the 98R6E Abakan non-strategic ballistic missile defence...

Russia’s Almaz-Antey Corporation unveiled the new 51P6E2 10×10 mobile surface-to-air missile launch platform for the 98R6E Abakan non-strategic ballistic missile defence system at the Russian Federation Ministry of Defence’s Army 2020 International Military-Technical Forum, held in Kubinka, near Moscow between 23 and 29 August.

The 98R6E Abakan is a highly manoeuvrable multichannel system designed to protect critically sensitive military-industrial, government, and administrative facilities against tactical ballistic missiles.

The Abakan system includes a 98L6E mobile multifunctional ballistic target detection and tracking radar based on a 4×4 platform, and several 51P6E2 mobile launchers. The exact number of launchers depends on a combat task. The 51P6E2 launcher is furnished with two vertically launched cylindrical containers, each containing a 9M82MDE interceptor, and a deployable radar that can be folded down between the containers in transportation mode. A ready-to-use launcher weighs 53.5 tons and is controlled by a crew of two.

The new 51P6E2 launcher for the 98R6E Abakan non-strategic ballistic missile defence system was unveiled at the Russian Federation Ministry of Defence’s Army 2020 International Military-Technical Forum between 23 and 29 August. (N Novichkov)
The new 51P6E2 launcher for the 98R6E Abakan non-strategic ballistic missile defence system was unveiled at the Russian Federation Ministry of Defence’s Army 2020 International Military-Technical Forum between 23 and 29 August. (N Novichkov)

The Abakan is designed to engage aerial targets with a minimum radar cross-section of 0.02 m² at a distance of up to 30 km and at altitudes up to 25 km. Two 9M82MDE interceptors can be guided to a single target.

The launch vehicle has a range of 500 km on surfaced roads and produces a top speed of 60 km/h. The 51P6E2 has a stated deployment time of approximately six minutes, with preparation of the interceptor given as 7.5 seconds.



A few links
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.janes.com/amp/army-2020-almaz-antey-unveils-new-launcher-for-abakan-ballistic-missile-defence-system/ZnlJK3dHVU9mZ28xajRJVkc5dVI5VFp1cVMwPQ2

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.janes.com/amp/army-2020-almaz-antey-unveils-new-launcher-for-abakan-ballistic-missile-defence-system/ZnlJK3dHVU9mZ28xajRJVkc5dVI5VFp1cVMwPQ2

https://focuswashington.com/2021/08/11/saudi-arabia-wants-to-replace-patriot-air-defense-with-russian-made-abakan-system/

Comparisons with the larger missile of the two S-300V missile suggests to me it is bigger than the bigger S-300V missile but with asimilar two tube launcher...

The range of SAMS against ballistic missiles is seriously effected by the very steep trajectories of such targets.

The PAC-3 Patriot has a range of about 20km for example.

GarryB wrote:Comparisons with the larger missile of the two S-300V missile suggests to me it is bigger than the bigger S-300V missile but with asimilar two tube launcher...

The range of SAMS against ballistic missiles is seriously effected by the very steep trajectories of such targets.

The PAC-3 Patriot has a range of about 20km for example.

So this is a completely different system to the two tube S300V?

Or is it an combination of S300V+S400+ S500? Never heard of Abakan system seems export only maybe

That's the same missile as on S-300VM with a newer radar that should be a derivative of what they made for s-500.

The system is made for protection of large cities or industries against BM.

S-300VM is heavy and made for protecting army units offroad.

S-300VM on wheels.

Well depending on foreign demand they might unify the S300VM with the S-500 system for the export version, but to make it more appealing they would change it by making it wheeled rather than tracked.

As you probably know the S-300 was supposed to be a standardised unified missile system for air force, army, and navy, but the Army wanted a system with better capacity against ballistic threats, and they also wanted the systems tracked so they could operate with armour in the field, resulting in the S-300V which used two different but related missiles. The Air Force and Navy used essentially the same missile though it was the Air Force that massively upgraded it to what is now the S-400 system while the Navy basically... the poor runt of the family got Rif and Rif-M which is a 90km and 150km very very early model S-300 equivalent.

Expect the navy to get more attention as Russia looks to the rest of the world for trade and the west tries to stop them.

If the new S-500 uses a similar missile to the S-300V but bigger then it probably makes more sense selling it with the Antei-2500 system (S-300VM), but on a cheaper wheeled platform.

The S-500 system will no doubt be used by the Army, Navy, and Air Force, so with the Army they will need to integrate it with their S-300V4 systems and they may transition to wheeled or keep them tracked... a large portion of their ground forces will likely become wheeled over the next decade or two with the introduction of Boomerang and Typhoon which will be cheaper light numbers vehicles. The Air Force will likely integrate it with their S-400 and S-350 units, while the Navy might adapt it to the UKSK launchers but then again they might need a separate launcher because of the size of the missiles...

It provides an extra layer of defence over top of existing protection layers, except in Moscow where that layer already exists... these will reinforce and improve and make mobile such defence.

Eventually I would expect St Petersberg and Vladivostok to get S-500 batteries, not just major cities but also major ports as well which might get Nudol type missiles as well over time... Sevastopol... and the northern fleet too...

Any US attack on a S-400 installation will have to deal with a lot more than just what the S-400 has to offer in terms of an already formidable capability.

Let's take the example of the FA-18 coming in for a HARM strike on any of the radars of the S-400 system. The HARM missile has a very limited range of around 100kms. Now this alone is a huge problem already as the long range 40N6 missile has an engagement range of 400kms alone!

There are 5 different types of missiles the S-400 can use with a range from 40kms to 250kms and out to 400kms.

The powerful 91N6 S-band surveillance and tracking radar can track over 300 targets and has a range of 600kms and can apparently track stealth targets 150kms away. The problem is stealth aircraft can use the HARM missile only externally dramatically reducing it's stealth capabilities.

You also have the 96L6 all altitude acquisition radars to deal with. The export version can track 100 targets that can be detected 300kms away. The Russian version is probably far more capable.

You also have the 92N6E - an I/J Band multi-function phased-array trailer-mounted engagement radar with digital beam steering.
Another additional radar is the 76N6 radar for low altitude targets.

Apart from all these very capable radars and missiles the attacker would most probably also come under scrutiny of the A-50/100, Mig-31, Su-35, Su-30SM not to mention the SU-57's. Many 0ther Russian ground based radars would also be able to track any attack from great distances. Even passive radars can be used.

Most of the S-400 sites would also be protected by the Pantsir and Tor missile systems, each with it's own tracking and engagement radars. Trying to attack the S-400 from "the rear" as suggested in the video may sound easy but I think not!

Jamming and decoys can play a significant role in attempting to destroy the S-400 but you can expect an equal amount of jamming and the use of decoys from the other side.

All in all I would say the FA-18 strike aircraft have a very slim chance of launching any HARM missiles, let alone destroy the S-400 site.

AlfaT8 wrote:

Like Mir said, it's not just the S-400 they'll have to worry about. Export Pantsir-S1's recently shot down 22 out of 24 missiles Israel fired at various targets.

What they should worry about is Iskander and Kalibr hitting their strategic infrastructures like nuclear powerplants or oil storage.

Imagine for 2 second modern western socities without electricty and oil storage facilities.

And what is equally important, still missed by most of that quasi-experts, is the fact that any time Russian AD will engage in battle, it will be supported by a waste range of decoys, electronic countermeasures, false targets, and the whole integrated system that functionally no one in the world has.
They own and operate the system that has no equal in the whole world.
As far as we can be really impressed by the achievements of Israeli AD systems, with all due respect to them, those are not even close to the Russian one.
Not complex enough, not echeloned enough, not comparable in numbers.
It is just enough to sit&watch the performance of minimalized Russian-solution-based AD in Syria and compare it to the "epic astonishment" US achieved.
Not once. Not twice. Several times, with just the same results.
A fully developed, manned and on alert US Patriot-based system failed each and any time when checked.
Iranian SRBM and MRBM just struck the most important US airbases in Iraq. All of them, that had no in-flight malfunction.
Iranian old generation cruise missiles and inexpensive drones just hit the Saudi oil infrastructure on multiple occasions, leaving THAAD, PAC2, and PAC3 systems there 100% impotent.
This farse continuous, and it is quite obvious to any sane observer why they have withdrawn most of the AD assets from the middle east.
To avoid further humiliation, that would put some serious questions to the whole Hollywood projected "military might" of the Murica.

I find it quite funny watching ze vezt fanboys ejaculating in those YT productions. It was really something to watch how they throw shit on Pancyrs in Libya or Syria, those being vulnerable to Turk drones. Without commenting that in case of applying the same drone strategy to any single NATO army, the only thing those could do would be throwing stones at them because they all lack any reasonable mobile AD systems for land forces Hell, US Army has functionally nothing that can deal with anything hovering above 5000m, imagine that A Stinger/Hellfire on wheels? Bitch, please

The US military have already revealed their plans... they need enormous numbers to swarm an air defence, but their main problem is that the Russian S-400 isn't sitting on its own with its thumb up its ass... it is embedded in a network of systems and platforms...

If you want to use a Hornet with HARMS you are being an idiot... Panstir and TOR eat HARMS for breakfast... you will need thousands of missiles from hundreds of planes and when their OTH radar detects the carriers these planes are launching from MiG-31Ks are going to get airborne and start sinking some ships... without letting the Hornets get anywhere near them so they will remain safe.

The Hornets on the other hand would be in real trouble as to fire HARMS at S-400s they will need to fly high and fast and they still will be firing from within the S-400s engagement envelope.

When the US talks about Swarms they are talking about thousands of targets and they are no where near achieving anything like that level of attack capacity, and certainly could not afford that number of HARMS... whether to buy them or simply all deploy them at one time in a theatre without removing all the HARMS they have from all other theatres.

With the cost of the F-35 they wont be able to afford an air force pretty soon and as we have seen on its thread they are refusing to buy any extra F-35s because the more they have the less availability their units have because the F-35 puts the dog in dogfighter.

The hilarious thing is that 20 years ago I would never think they would be talking about attacking S-400s with Hornets... surely it would be F-35s and F-22s and B-2s and other stealth aircraft that were designed to attack and destroy air defences.

It is a clear surrender and display of defeat that they plan to attack S-400 batteries with 4th gen non stealthy fighters using anti radiation missiles older than most of the people here...

In ten years time will the strategy be B-52s and air launched Honest John II missiles?

That could actually work as this would be a combo of good old stuff designed to work instead of burning taxpayers money

By the way, I just remembered something.
Just in a time when Iranian ballistic missiles smashed on the US airfields in Iraq, Israel (probably, but it started in Qatar) tried to penetrate Iranian air defence with some low altitude drone.
A drone was tracked by S-300 system battery radar, and shoot down with Herz-9 on spot.

Any link about this story of iranian AD vs drone ?

GarryB wrote:In ten years time will the strategy be B-52s and air launched Honest John II missiles?

Probably has a greater chance of success, too. All jokes aside, when the US talks about taking out S-300's and S-400, they're almost exclusively talking about export SAM's like the ones China, Iran and Venezuela operate, that may not be protected by medium and short range air defenses like Russian SAM's always are, not to mention how retardedly Syria was using the Pantsir-S in earlier years which lead to losing 2 or 3 of them to the Israeli Harop and the traitorous Armenian President deliberately leaving S-300 components exposed on the frontlines for Azerbaijan to destroy with Turkish drones. Incompetence and Sabotage will play a greater role in any S-300/400 systems being destroyed in future conflicts.