Sweden and Finland accession to NATO

The whole of Scandinavia has less people than Ukraine. Problem with Russia is that because of EU defense clause it could get in a war with whole of EU.
Joining NATO would not help Scandinavian defense one iota and just piss the Russians off.
They might just call their bluff and take the Baltics and Finland one day.

walle83 wrote:

Isos wrote:One thing they haven't realized is that Russia doesn't want nato forces next to its vital bases. Finland is at artillery range from Northern fleet's naval bases where half of russian SSBN are... which mens nato could wipe out half of russian naval ballistic missiles with two or three nuclear armed rockets.

That means Russia will need to strike first and no lightly. Those two countries could not exist anymore as soon as they join that alliance.

If they are having problems with even the Ukrains i suggest they dont mess with the nordic countries.

The alternative is a nuclear strike, and then we are all fucked.

Russia has no interest in the Nordic countries

And the approach of the Russian military in the Ukraine is very soft. They want to turn the invasion into a liberation.

In a war with another army, Russia will switch to artillery and stand-off weapons, rather than just flooding the place with troops

And Scandinavian countries have a larger coastline much larger than Ukraine which makes it difficult to defend and gives the enemy plenty of options for beach landings. However majority of Scandinavians seem relatively peaceful and not warmongers, they don't have the appetite like UK and USA. They see no gain in having an angry Russia on your doorstep for the sake to appease USA and UK foreign policy.

walle83 wrote:

Isos wrote:One thing they haven't realized is that Russia doesn't want nato forces next to its vital bases. Finland is at artillery range from Northern fleet's naval bases where half of russian SSBN are... which mens nato could wipe out half of russian naval ballistic missiles with two or three nuclear armed rockets.

That means Russia will need to strike first and no lightly. Those two countries could not exist anymore as soon as they join that alliance.

If they are having problems with even the Ukrains i suggest they dont mess with the nordic countries.

The alternative is a nuclear strike, and then we are all fucked.

You don't get the situation. They have no interest in taking Sweeden as NATO tries to make you beleive.

The only option if Sweeden and more particulary Finland join NATO is to nuk them.

Finland is already playing with the fire by tracking russian subs and strategical bombers for NATO. In a war with nato Finland's bases will be crushed wkth nuks.

As simple as that.

walle83 wrote:

If they are having problems with even the Ukrains i suggest they dont mess with the nordic countries.

The alternative is a nuclear strike, and then we are all fucked.

The Ukrainians are brothers. If the Russians invade you there'd be no kid gloves - they'd turn you into Iraq with snow.

lyle6 wrote:

walle83 wrote:

If they are having problems with even the Ukrains i suggest they dont mess with the nordic countries.

The alternative is a nuclear strike, and then we are all fucked.

The Ukrainians are brothers. If the Russians invade you there'd be no kid gloves - they'd turn you into Iraq with snow.

Have you seen the brutality Russia uses against Ukriane? I would say that brother wants to kill him.

Russia already uses basicly all it can in Ukriane today, the result would be the same. Lines of destroyed Russian tanks.

walle83 wrote:

lyle6 wrote:

walle83 wrote:

If they are having problems with even the Ukrains i suggest they dont mess with the nordic countries.

The alternative is a nuclear strike, and then we are all fucked.

The Ukrainians are brothers. If the Russians invade you there'd be no kid gloves - they'd turn you into Iraq with snow.

Have you seen the brutality Russia uses against Ukriane? I would say that brother wants to kill him.

Russia already uses basicly all it can in Ukriane today, the result would be the same. Lines of destroyed Russian tanks.

What brutality? You're being bullshited to. Russia has been quite light-handed with the the Ukraine.
Cruise missile strikes against headquarters of Ukrainian command and SBU - but even then giving them a prior warning to evacuate. Strikes against air defense systems, fuel debots, ammunition storages, military airfields, buildings used by territorial defense battallions and neo-Nazis.

There was urban fighting as well which destroyed civilian buildings, that much is true.

Lots of ground battles with the Ukrainian military, but that's mostly to take key road communication points and to shove them away further.

There aren't any lines of destroyed Russian tanks either. I've seen a lot of abandoned ones. I've seen some 1-2 destroyed ones. But I haven't seen any columns of them taken out.

From now on pics or it didnt happen

Develop anti Russian targeted bio weapons and get the US to help you develop nuclear weapons and find out.

Finland seems to have turned completly around in the Nato question in just over a month. By the looks the nation that has had a strong neutrality since WW2 now could apply and join Nato before the summer.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12398611/64-3-69051?utm_medium=social&utm_source=copy-link-share
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-12398611?utm_medium=social&utm_source=copy-link-share

Also Sweden is turning. The ruling Socialdemocrats that always been against joining nato is now under high pressure from the opposition to join Nato. Much will depend on what Finland will do in the next few weeks.

https://www.di.se/nyheter/magdalena-andersson-brett-stod-for-nato-kravs/
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/akesson-finland-avgor-nato-fragan-for-sverige/

The attempts at neutrality sound rather fake anyway, they were essentially forward bases for HATO no matter what their offiical position.

Russia is turning to the rest of the world, what Finland and Sweden do is not overly critical to very much at all except relations with harden and diminish so trade will mostly cease.

Not really a huge problem actually.

Wonder if they will start nazying up and open US paid for Bio weapons labs and talk about nuclear weapons... didn't really work in the Baltic states but it worked in the Ukraine.

Seriously suspect these days in Europe more and more will think maybe Hitler wasn't so bad... and it is all Russias fault...

Of course there is no better way to damage the EU than cut off its energy and they are doing that to themselves.

The Swedish Socialdemocrates just announced that they are leaving thier policy from a "No to Nato" to having a neutral stand in the question insted. If Finland now chooses to apply in the next ten days Sweden will most likley follow.
Best gess in 3-5 months Nato will have 2 new members and the neutral Northen Europe will end after 75 years. Meaning that the whole baltic sea then will be surrounded by Nato except from Russia.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/a/Kzm327

walle83 wrote:

No-one cares about Finland and Sweden, the conflict is not about Finland and Sweden, but about the Ukraine and the attempt to solidify the ultra-nationalist regime there with NATO assistance and in the future membership.

And the stakes have been raised so high in the Ukraine that you better hope the West does not lose the battle there. Otherwise there could end up being no NATO in the future. Similarly if Russia loses it, there could be no Russia.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1513570561447837700

"There are Unconfirmed reports today that Russian Forces in the Leningrad Region near the City of Vyborg are beginning to move Heavy Military Equipment including K-300P Bastion Coastal Defense Missile Systems towards the Gulf of Finland and the Finnish Border."

lancelot wrote:https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1513570561447837700

"There are Unconfirmed reports today that Russian Forces in the Leningrad Region near the City of Vyborg are beginning to move Heavy Military Equipment including K-300P Bastion Coastal Defense Missile Systems towards the Gulf of Finland and the Finnish Border."

That video has been making the rounds for a few weeks, dunno when it's from

Probably more Ukrainian agitation. They've been doing but that.

flamming_python wrote:

walle83 wrote:

No-one cares about Finland and Sweden, the conflict is not about Finland and Sweden, but about the Ukraine and the attempt to solidify the ultra-nationalist regime there with NATO assistance and in the future membership.

And the stakes have been raised so high in the Ukraine that you better hope the West does not lose the battle there. Otherwise there could end up being no NATO in the future. Similarly if Russia loses it, there could be no Russia.

Yes im sure Putin will be overwelmed with joy when Russia gets a 1.000km boarder next to Nato.
If you remember the whole conflict started with Russia more or less demending Nato not to get any new members in Europe. Well that backfired....

More like Putins warning to HATO falls on deaf ears as usual and they stumble on this land mine like a deaf and blind person might who didn't know they were in a mine field.

The difference is that Putin clearly said we are not happy and this is why, and these are the things we are upset about and the US said I am bullet proof and I don't care what you think... minions... slowly keep walking forward with plan meatshield, and not only is the EU following that command but other countries not part of HATO are signing up.

Signing up to HATO is a sign of weakness for Sweden and Finland because it massively diminishes their independence and puts them in even more danger while providing the US with more of a meatshield.

If the US cared about human rights and democracy and freedom of speech how could they possibly allow the nazification of the Ukraine... how could they stand by and let Kiev ban a language... what would happen in the US if anyone tried to ban any language at all... whether it is Russian or Chinese or Mexican...

Finland and Sweden jumping into bed with the US is totally their choice, but I would wonder what they expect to get out of it?

Higher defence spending that will result in rather more Russian fire power being based on their border... wow... just as well you joined HATO.... look at how aggressive Russia is responding to you joining an anti Russian organisation like HATO...

Finland and Sweden have every right to join HATO, but Russia has every right to adjust its defence posture and trade relations with hostile countries... sounds like any trade in the future will be in rubles because they are both becoming hostile nations, but then the goal was always to kill trade with Russia... which is also OK.

Europe does not seem to understand they are only a small portion of the worlds population and despite being the richer parts of the world they never pay top dollar for anything... they often demand discounts and special treatment resulting in them often never paying retail price for anything... such a low margin customer makes them worse than a poor customer who pays full price.

Both countries are shadow HATO allies anyway... declarations would make little practical difference in terms of defence except to make you actual targets that can be targeted with tactical nukes.

Going from a neighbour to a threat does not make you safer, no matter what the US claims.

GarryB wrote:More like Putins warning to HATO falls on deaf ears as usual and they stumble on this land mine like a deaf and blind person might who didn't know they were in a mine field.

The difference is that Putin clearly said we are not happy and this is why, and these are the things we are upset about and the US said I am bullet proof and I don't care what you think... minions... slowly keep walking forward with plan meatshield, and not only is the EU following that command but other countries not part of HATO are signing up.

Signing up to HATO is a sign of weakness for Sweden and Finland because it massively diminishes their independence and puts them in even more danger while providing the US with more of a meatshield.

If the US cared about human rights and democracy and freedom of speech how could they possibly allow the nazification of the Ukraine... how could they stand by and let Kiev ban a language... what would happen in the US if anyone tried to ban any language at all... whether it is Russian or Chinese or Mexican...

Finland and Sweden jumping into bed with the US is totally their choice, but I would wonder what they expect to get out of it?

Higher defence spending that will result in rather more Russian fire power being based on their border... wow... just as well you joined HATO.... look at how aggressive Russia is responding to you joining an anti Russian organisation like HATO...

Finland and Sweden have every right to join HATO, but Russia has every right to adjust its defence posture and trade relations with hostile countries... sounds like any trade in the future will be in rubles because they are both becoming hostile nations, but then the goal was always to kill trade with Russia... which is also OK.

Europe does not seem to understand they are only a small portion of the worlds population and despite being the richer parts of the world they never pay top dollar for anything... they often demand discounts and special treatment resulting in them often never paying retail price for anything... such a low margin customer makes them worse than a poor customer who pays full price.

Both countries are shadow HATO allies anyway... declarations would make little practical difference in terms of defence except to make you actual targets that can be targeted with tactical nukes.

Going from a neighbour to a threat does not make you safer, no matter what the US claims.

Yeah I stopped reading your responses a while ago, no point really.

walle83 wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

walle83 wrote:

No-one cares about Finland and Sweden, the conflict is not about Finland and Sweden, but about the Ukraine and the attempt to solidify the ultra-nationalist regime there with NATO assistance and in the future membership.

And the stakes have been raised so high in the Ukraine that you better hope the West does not lose the battle there. Otherwise there could end up being no NATO in the future. Similarly if Russia loses it, there could be no Russia.

Yes im sure Putin will be overwelmed with joy when Russia gets a 1.000km boarder next to Nato.
If you remember the whole conflict started with Russia more or less demending Nato not to get any new members in Europe. Well that backfired....

Pretty clear he was referring to the Ukraine and to some extent Georgia

Finland and Sweden were never mentioned at all at any time.

Yeah I stopped reading your responses a while ago, no point really.

Of course.

You pay for expensive new American weapons and enjoy those new tactical nukes Russia is going to move to your border to point at you... they have no interest in invading your countries or occupying your countries, your populations are too far gone on the brainwashing front so there is no saving you.

But you do constitute a threat to Russia so you territory will be targetted by a vastly increasing inventory of tactical nuclear weapons I suspect... they wont invade or occupy you, but you represent a threat that may need to be eliminated at some point... so more troops and armour and aircraft don't make as much sense as tactical nuclear ballistic rockets and cruise missiles to eliminate the threat to Russian borders.

By all means don't discuss or consider any other view... the US MIC loves people like you.

I rather suspect you and your neighbours admire Hitler and the Nazis too much to be friends with Russia anyway.

The west is moving towards a type of fascism again...

If you remember the whole conflict started with Russia more or less demending Nato not to get any new members in Europe. Well that backfired....

Not really. Putin expressed Russias security concerns, which they have every right to do and mentioned previous security guarantees Russia had received from Europe and the US which proved to be lies.

Finland and Sweden are already cooperating with HATO so their addition just means they will have to spend more money buying US weapons that wont make them any safer.

Backfired?

In many ways it will be cheaper to just move tactical nuclear weapons to the borders and close down cooperation with these newly openly hostile states... you already said both countries are reducing trade with Russia, so essentially the borders will be closed anyway.

Except for a tiny part up with Norway (that really noone even cared about (too icy)) and the Baltic States, Russia almost had no border with Nato countries. If I stand correct it was like 6% of its frontier. And if you take kaliningrad away should had been like 2%.

So entrace of Finland and Sweden are not an issue for Putin?

Pacense wrote:Except for a tiny part up with Norway (that really noone even cared about (too icy)) and the Baltic States, Russia almost had no border with Nato countries. If I stand correct it was like 6% of its frontier. And if you take kaliningrad away should had been like 2%.

So entrace of Finland and Sweden are not an issue for Putin?

It's the fact that eastern countries are good place for tomahawk like missiles to be put. Eventhough they don't share a border they are close enough to put smaller missile for a first strike on Moscow and on a big part of russian nuclear missiles.

Isos wrote:It's the fact that eastern countries are good place for tomahawk like missiles to be put. Eventhough they don't share a border they are close enough to put smaller missile for a first strike on Moscow and on a big part of russian nuclear missiles.

Finland already has the JASSM air launched cruise missile. Is that a defensive weapon? I am not sure which clauses the treaty they signed with the Soviet Union had but I doubt it allows them to have shit like that. The whole reason Stalin went into the Winter War in the first place was so that Leningrad would be out of artillery range from their territory.

So entrace of Finland and Sweden are not an issue for Putin?

It would not be ideal terrain for a massive land invasion from Europe.

The fact that they are painting themselves as hostile is obviously a negative for a politician like Putin who has been talking to Europe for the last 20 years about open economic borders from the Atlantic to the Pacific and has had these ideas thrown in his face as the Europeans cherry picked eastern europe and then former soviet states while rejecting and indeed demonising Russia.

Whether it is an issue or not they were not buddies and were never going to be BFF.... now they will just be target coordinates for lots of nukes.

Closing the borders to traffic will simplify their border relations too... anything heading to Russia can be considered hostile where before it needed to be inspected and identified.

It's the fact that eastern countries are good place for tomahawk like missiles to be put. Eventhough they don't share a border they are close enough to put smaller missile for a first strike on Moscow and on a big part of russian nuclear missiles.

The sort of bases the US loves because it can launch as many missiles as it likes and the response... why would the US care about Sweden and Finland being glassed?

Another chance to murder Russians with no downside for the US.

The next winter war wont involve Russian troops on the ground... but then the other winter war was Soviet troops anyway.

Finland will announce if they will apply to Nato on May 12. Im gessing its going to be a big yes.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-will-decide-apply-nato-membership-may-12-says-iltalehti-newspaper-2022-05-02/

Swedens ruling party will be finished discussing thier new Nato policy by May 24. Most likley a yes to apply here to.
https://www.dn.se/sverige/s-i-maratonmote-om-tidtabell-for-nato/

Both nations should be applying before the end of June 2022.