Sweden and Finland accession to NATO

lancelot wrote:Good luck Scandinavians. I will be here eating snacks while the missiles fly off.

A modern tactical nuke has more explosive power than the bombs the US dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those were so heavy the B-29 would only carry one, and it had to be dropped directly over the target. Modern H-bombs are 10x more powerful.

The Tu-22M3M can carry like four Kinzhal missiles with 2,500km range each. The combat range of the Tu-22M3M itself is close to 4000km. The Kinzhal warhead has up to 500kT explosive power and the bombs the US dropped in WW2 had 16 and 21 kT explosive power basically. How many large cities do you guys have? Maybe 3 in Sweden and another 2 in Finland? Probably cities not large enough to justify dialing all up to 500kT. Maybe just 100kT would be enough. You can tune the explosive yield from 100kT to 500kT I think.

Seriously? Thats the best you got? You sound like a ten year old.

No one in Sweden or Finland gives a rats ass about Russian nukes. They always been there and they will never be used, specialy against a Nato member. Because then you can choke on your snacks while ~1000 SL/ICBMs hits Russia and ends its existens.
If you want to blame anyone that these to countries now will join Nato, blame Putin.

US will never go at full nuclear war over those dumbass countries.

US pushed for the war in Ukraine. Finish and Sweedish are dumb enough to beleive what US says and want to join NATO for stupid reasons.

US will accept them but certainly not for protecting tjem from russian nuks but to turn them into full US dogs like they did for whole Europe.

Both nations are making themselves irrelevant.

Putin is finished with the west, his dream of a euroasian block from the atlantic to the pacific is gone and buried... he tried to make it happen and was rejected repeatedly, so now essentially closing borders and embassies to europe and turning to Asia and Africa and central and south america and the pacific will be the future for Russia and Russians.

He tried.

Tactical nukes pointed towards Europe will be all the defence they need to protect themselves from attack, borders will largely be closed and the requirement for trade in rubles with hostile countries will limit trade with europe to a tiny trickle very quickly.

Good luck Scandinavians. I will be here eating snacks while the missiles fly off.

Putin wont start WWIII over this... he wont commit suicide over those two nothing nations joining HATO.

He is going to turn away from the west and start looking to the rest of the world... he wont attack the west or fight the US... he will ignore them.

They always been there and they will never be used, specialy against a Nato member.

Only one country has ever used nukes for real on civilian populations.... three times if you count the Marshall Islands...

Being in HATO makes you a target but also a hostile country Russia will no longer want to trade with... you will get on their ignore list.

US will accept them but certainly not for protecting tjem from russian nuks but to turn them into full US dogs like they did for whole Europe.

For the US it is a win win... more places to exercise and forward deploy weapons and even if the weapons are used the retaliation hits a country the US doesn't give a **** about... they don't even care about America, why would they care about european countries for?

In fact, Russia might decide to do that sooner rather than later, before the US deploys hypersonics of its own. If Russia does that, you will dread the day you decided to join NATO.

The funny thing is that Putin does not like war... he only acts when Russia is threatened... he sent forces to Syria because he knew if Assad fell then Russia would be next for all the Russian nutters who went to help ISIS, and Ukraine is currently at war because Russia felt threatened and could see no other option.

Obviously joining HATO will make Finland and Sweden super safe... except if US missiles on the Russian border makes them feel unsafe.... and then guess what happens...

lancelot wrote:I remember reading several post Soviet collapse scenarios for Russia. One was to make a massive strike with tactical nukes on all the bases with US presence in Europe and force the US out of the continent. If NATO continues with its hostility, it might happen. And if you think the US will strike Russian cities when theirs would be wiped out of the map in return, you will be sorrily mistaken. Right now, this would have to be done with the Kh-102 missile. It is subsonic, and kind of slow, which means the US might have time to hit Russian silos before it hits. We have seen the Kh-101, its conventional armed sibling, hit targets in Ukraine just fine. So far Ukrainian air defenses don't seem to have managed to intercept a single one. Russia has been using like four to six of those every single day. For the last two months. And people still don't get it. They even used the Kinzhal with a conventional warhead a couple of times.

Once Kinzhal and Zircon are fully deployed then Russia will be able to wipe out all those targets before the US can react.
In fact, Russia might decide to do that sooner rather than later, before the US deploys hypersonics of its own. If Russia does that, you will dread the day you decided to join NATO.

Dude you r giving me a headache. You sound like they do on Russian tv debates.

Did the IQ drop over the last months? Ever heard about the words Mutual assured destruction?

lancelot wrote:

walle83 wrote:Dude you r giving me a headache. You sound like they do on Russian tv debates.
Did the IQ drop over the last months? Ever heard about the words Mutual assured destruction?

No, you are the one who doesn't realize the ones with the nukes won't be you. And Uncle Sam won't use the nukes if it can result on a strike on their own territory. Which is what will happen if they strike Russia.

No shit Sherlock, same sentence can be used for Russia.

If Russia launches anything at Nato members the result will be a third world war. And like I said not even Putin is that stupid and therefore no one cares about the Russian nuclear weapons.

Russia should be more worried about having a new historic long border next to Nato. If Russia cant handle Ukraine they sure hell cant handle the Fins with full support from the US.

Fact is that if Russia woudnt have attacked Ukraine Finland would never had applied.

Funny how things can come back in your face if you aint careful.

Finland and Sweden are simply changing from semi neutral independent states to cannon fodder for the US...

The length of the border between Russia and HATO countries is irrelevant... as you say a Russian nuclear strike only has one response on paper because of article 5, but that is not totally true because if that nuclear strike is the result of a border incursion or attack from a HATO country then article 5 does not apply because Russia is not attacking, it is defending.

Either way joining HATO simply makes you a hostile country... which you already were so no real practical changes there.

This will mean any remaining trade with Russia will need to be in rubles moving forward which will mean you wont be interested, so you will cut off trade with Russia from your end.

No trade and being part of HATO means Russian embassies in Finland and Sweden will likely close as will Finnish and Swedish embassies in Russia...

No trade and no diplomatic relations... the border will effectively be closed.

The US of course will want all sorts of bases and weapons and equipment to be based in Finland, which will result in Russia moving hardware to the border area themselves... not for an invasion but to neutralise any weapons the US might locate there... the most efficient weapons for that goal would be tactical nuclear devices... from 152mm artillery, through various nuclear delivery systems... they are developing short range cruise missiles with reduced weight warheads which would be excellent for nuclear warheads which are smaller and lighter than conventional HE warheads... maybe a train based system with dozens of missiles per train carriage that could launch large numbers of tactical nuclear weapons at once.

Ahh, you say, the Russians wont use nukes against a HATO force, but an attack on Finland is not the same as an attack on the Ukraine where there are plenty of non hostiles to be freed from the imperial nazi force the west unleashed on them in the coup in 2014.

An attack on the Ukraine is to liberate the victims of nazi oppression... an attack on Finland would be destroying a threat with no friendlies in the field of fire.

It is like the difference between a rescue and an attack... the former requires restraint and respect and minimising damage and death to the bad guys, while the latter... they are all the enemy wanting Russians dead so the less survive the safer Russia will be.

A very different sort of conflict and one that does not require conventional weapons really.

How many Americans want to die to save the Ukraine?

Probably the same number that want to die to save Finland or Sweden... none of the 1% in charge that is for sure.

lancelot wrote:

walle83 wrote:Russia should be more worried about having a new historic long border next to Nato. If Russia cant handle Ukraine they sure hell cant handle the Fins with full support from the US.

Fact is that if Russia woudnt have attacked Ukraine Finland would never had applied.

Finland bought the JASSM air launched cruise missiles together with the Poles. Does that sound like a defensive posture to you? Finland ordered them back in 2007. 370km range. Who is Finland planning to use those air launched cruise missiles on? They bought 70 missiles with enough range to hit both St. Petersburg and Moscow. In 2007 they also bought the M270 MLRS with 150km range. Now, you can't buy US weapons even from third parties without their explicit approval, so they have been in the US camp clearly since then at least.

So on that basis you mean that Finland is planning to attack Russia?

And who they might use the missiles on...this says it all.

"JASSM is just as much a deterrent capability, as it is a strike capability. It makes the enemy pause and think twice about aggressive action, because it provides precision strike of a wide range of valuable targets."

— Senior Finnish official on why Finland needed these missiles

walle83 wrote:

lancelot wrote:

walle83 wrote:Dude you r giving me a headache. You sound like they do on Russian tv debates.
Did the IQ drop over the last months? Ever heard about the words Mutual assured destruction?

No, you are the one who doesn't realize the ones with the nukes won't be you. And Uncle Sam won't use the nukes if it can result on a strike on their own territory. Which is what will happen if they strike Russia.

No shit Sherlock, same sentence can be used for Russia.

If Russia launches anything at Nato members the result will be a third world war. And like I said not even Putin is that stupid and therefore no one cares about the Russian nuclear weapons.

Russia should be more worried about having a new historic long border next to Nato. If Russia cant handle Ukraine they sure hell cant handle the Fins with full support from the US.

Fact is that if Russia woudnt have attacked Ukraine Finland would never had applied.

Funny how things can come back in your face if you aint careful.

Russia is handling the Ukraine fine

Hence why Finland wants to join NATO now. Their previous plan of defense is obsolete.

And if Russia hadn't attacked the Ukraine Finland would still be a client state of the US and part of a military alliance with it in all but name, sanctioning Iran, Syria and taking part in adventures against Libya. Just like Sweden. Now clam it.

Security concerns of super powers are not a business of small countries to decide what they want or in that case paid actors playing head of state to decide. Just like Canada or Mexico would never be allowed to join a Russian,Chinese or North Korean military alliance and let alone dare to station any kind of contigent or weapons on their soil, the same applies for any boardering country with Russia.

I have an impression that the entire scandinavian ego stands on two legs in form of US is our daddy and some historical jerk-off fest about some Simo Häyaa fan-club amongst all scandinavians. This is not the timeline to do stupid things like threatening a country with super power capabilities with joining an aggressive military alliance who's entire existence was dedicated to kill and destroy Russia. You will be either calibrated before you will join NATO or you will be next Ukrainian Adi-lover who will be supplied by US weapons but never receive any NATO assistance. The US nor article 5 will EVER apply to PONOS countries. You will all be used like the Ukraine for attrition war against Russia in the hope it will wear out at some point or a Jeltzin, Gorby or Navalny can do the killing within.

The most likely scenario to get your ass kicked by a Russian is joining the Anti-Russian gang and voluntarily be the very first row guy. Congrats Scandinavians you are next to the Fasco-Ukrops getting punched if you are stupid enough. Article 5 will NEVER be used!

So on that basis you mean that Finland is planning to attack Russia?

Finland is planning to join a military group led by a country (US) focused on fighting Russia, so, while Finland herself might not be planning to do it on their own, they will be the cannon fodder that basically now represents as you say the front line border area where HATO forces will be positioned to expand the lineal threat to Russia.... Russia will have to spend money placing forces on that border to counter the forces the US demands to be allowed to place there... probably not initially... but eventually there will either be an actual provocation or they will make something up and you will need young American boys shagging your women and protecting you from the red menace...

"JASSM is just as much a deterrent capability, as it is a strike capability. It makes the enemy pause and think twice about aggressive action, because it provides precision strike of a wide range of valuable targets."

And having a few hundred when your potential opponent will be making rather large numbers of all types of such weapons in the past and now moving forward means any actual use of such weapons will wipe out military targets in Finland pretty quickly... but then when Finland joins the hostile countries group when it joins HATO why would the Russians care about civilian casualties... it will be like a HATO force in the Middle East... if you are not with us then you are with the terrorists so if you are near the enemy then you are the enemy.

Finland within HATO is a genuine threat to be eliminated. Finland outside of HATO could be talked to, but Finland inside HATO then Russia has to talk to the US and the US wont give a shit about Finland and will be all brave and stupid because it is only Finland at stake...

Russia is handling the Ukraine fine

Hence why Finland wants to join NATO now. Their previous plan of defense is obsolete.

Which is what is so amusing.... their previous plan of defence which was minding their own business and not joining HATO and not creating bio weapons labs and not creating nuclear weapons and not planning to shell or invade rebel regions within its own country was working really well, but the US whispering in their ear that Russia will invade them next has turned them into scaredy cats and they are desperate to join the anti Russia club...

And if Russia hadn't attacked the Ukraine Finland would still be a client state of the US and part of a military alliance with it in all but name, sanctioning Iran, Syria and taking part in adventures against Libya. Just like Sweden. Now clam it.

The US had been grooming the regions around Russia to be anti Russia forever... they even believe Siberia might demand autonomy too... The irony is that Russia ends up better off when the US gets what it wants most of the time... just look at their track record.

Security concerns of super powers are not a business of small countries to decide what they want or in that case paid actors playing head of state to decide. Just like Canada or Mexico would never be allowed to join a Russian,Chinese or North Korean military alliance and let alone dare to station any kind of contigent or weapons on their soil, the same applies for any boardering country with Russia.

Even the Solomon Islands are not free to choose their own trade and security agreements it seems...

The most likely scenario to get your ass kicked by a Russian is joining the Anti-Russian gang and voluntarily be the very first row guy. Congrats Scandinavians you are next to the Fasco-Ukrops getting punched if you are stupid enough. Article 5 will NEVER be used!

I agree with what you said but I think the most likely scenario is that Finland and Sweden both join HATO and that leads to Russia putting both countries into the hostile country bin which will mostly lead to a revision of Russian forces being located at that border... their size and structure will change... but both sides will be very careful to prevent conflict so trade will reduce down to a trickle and then stop completely... and then embassies for each country will end up in tit for tat expulsions till neither has any diplomats and their embassies will close too... no point in a Russian embassy in US territory so far from Washington that even Washington doesn't care about.

Interestingly they are not allowing a referendum on this decision, i guess they just want to avoid a Brexit situation.

It is like Maidan... you have to kill people on both sides to get the blood boiling and then a coup and cutting off all ties even with your main trading partner seem like sensible things to do. Of course Russia wont be Finlands or Swedens main trading partner so it will be even easier for them to cut them off.

Right now the propaganda in the west is working a treat... everyone thinks Russia is the bad guy and Kiev is innocent of all charges and to be honest unless we get a new media new revelations of the truth wont make much difference when you actively and enthusiastically broadcast the lie and then months later mention it was a lie in passing people just remember the lie...

But as I have said for several decades... Russia has no future with the west in its current form... it is not democratic and it is not free and fair like it pretends to be.

Russia sampled what life with the west would be like in the 1990s and even today the west thinks Russia in the 1990s was the best it could possibly be... they don't want a partner... they don't want cures for cancer because treatments are more profitable...

Russia needs to set a new path using its own morals and ethics and not be bullied by anyone as to what they should or should not be.

Russia was never going to push the west away because the west is a parasite, but fortunately for Russia, this parasite is trying to make Russia very sick so Russia is doing things it doesn't like which gives Russia every reason to get rid of it...

Russia needs to look to the rest of the world for trade and cooperation... they put a hand out to the west for the last 20 years and it has been slapped away with a good telling off.

The Russian economy and position in terms of the things that it need is very self sufficient... they don't have absolutely everything but the rest of the world has everything else they might need.

This thread is about Finland and Sweden of course, so the real question is will the US and their new HATO allies fill any gaps created by losing Russia as a trade partner... and I would say based on Georgia and Ukraine... they will build bio weapons labs and talk about military bases and forward deployed forces and missiles, but they will want you to buy their weapons... which is a huge irony... during the Cold War the logic in the west behind third world countries choosing the west over the commies was that the commies will give you weapons and their military bases but they wont have consumer goods and the technology that makes life easier or fun... almost seems to be the reverse situation now... but the west has always loved war and created wars at every opportunity...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciUNBIKNxMw

Scott Ritter about Finland joining NATO. Including a little history lesson.

Boris Johnson in Sweden declaring security insurances. Next stop is Finland.


Edit: Boris visit in Finland and the Finish president has some comments about the reason to join Nato. Saying that Russia "should look in the mirror" to find the reason.

lancelot wrote:

walle83 wrote:And who they might use the missiles on...this says it all.
"JASSM is just as much a deterrent capability, as it is a strike capability. It makes the enemy pause and think twice about aggressive action, because it provides precision strike of a wide range of valuable targets."

Finland managed to have over 60 years of peace without such weapons. We will see how safe those weapons will make them.

Well they didnt buy them to be used as a first strike attack weapon on Russia thats for sure.
If Russia doesnt want to have missiles fired at them, just stop attacking other nations. Its very easy.

flamming_python wrote:

walle83 wrote:

lancelot wrote:

walle83 wrote:Dude you r giving me a headache. You sound like they do on Russian tv debates.
Did the IQ drop over the last months? Ever heard about the words Mutual assured destruction?

No, you are the one who doesn't realize the ones with the nukes won't be you. And Uncle Sam won't use the nukes if it can result on a strike on their own territory. Which is what will happen if they strike Russia.

No shit Sherlock, same sentence can be used for Russia.

If Russia launches anything at Nato members the result will be a third world war. And like I said not even Putin is that stupid and therefore no one cares about the Russian nuclear weapons.

Russia should be more worried about having a new historic long border next to Nato. If Russia cant handle Ukraine they sure hell cant handle the Fins with full support from the US.

Fact is that if Russia woudnt have attacked Ukraine Finland would never had applied.

Funny how things can come back in your face if you aint careful.

Russia is handling the Ukraine fine

Yes everything is going according to plan.....everything is perfect

Boris Johnson in Sweden declaring security insurances. Next stop is Finland.

Security promises from Boris Johnson... you can take those to the bank...

Edit: Boris visit in Finland and the Finish president has some comments about the reason to join Nato. Saying that Russia "should look in the mirror" to find the reason.

Hahaha... it is all Russias fault... of course it is... as Scott Ritter points out... losing soverignty over you own defence and having to fortify that enormous border you have with Russia is probably going to cost you your nice cushy standard of living... of course spending 2 percent of your GDP wont be a problem if you get F-35s.

Well they didnt buy them to be used as a first strike attack weapon on Russia thats for sure.
If Russia doesnt want to have missiles fired at them, just stop attacking other nations. Its very easy.

Russia has attacked a country that has been at war for the last 8 years with its own people... they didn't attack on a whim or for fun or for oil, they are defending their neighbours from nazis as clearly outlined in that Scott Ritter video... the CIA has been funding nazis for the last half century or more.

For Finland to be scared suggests they want to attack Russia for some reason... but who cares... Finland and Sweden are not important... if they want to give up control of their defence to the US and give up their comfortable lives that is their choice... or should I say that is their leaders choice it seems... but then it is also the choice of other HATO states... any of which might say no thanks.

Yes everything is going according to plan.....everything is perfect

Of course it isn't... this attack was the last option, but when EU countries demand Russia fulfil its obligations under Minsk.... when Russia has no obligations under the minsk agreement you can tell diplomacy has failed and the people paying the cost were Ukrainians in the Donbass and Lugansk regions.

Well now the rest of the Ukraine is feeling their pain and it seems they don't like it and the western world thinks it is all unacceptable... now.

In case Finland was attacked by Russia, the airfields would be the first targets of an attack.

Finland is not a friendly country, any conflict with Russia would be about eliminating a threat rather than rescuing a population from thugs in charge... rather simpler all round... they likely would not even send any troops in, just do what HATO would do... drop the bridges and destroy the tunnels and then work through power generation and other important industrial and economic targets till they surrender.

All trade would be in rubles so probably all trade will cease, which is fine.

Whats the point about this talk about nukes, and threating Finland and Sweden? I just don't understand what good can come from it.

The EU and NATO borders are the most stable borders Russia has. Does no one in the Kremlin understands this?

The EU and NATO borders are the most stable borders Russia has. Does no one in the Kremlin understands this?

The west is stirring up hatred of Russia and Russians... look at the Ukraine... since 2014 Kiev has been shelling civilians and the west has not said a word, or if they did they claimed it was Russians invading the Ukraine so it was all self defence and everything would be solved if Russia withdrew its forces from the Donbass and stopped helping the locals fight against Kiev.

The Ukraine and Georgia also have bio weapons labs and US military forces rotated in an out during peace time... they seem to run away when there is conflict...

That is what the Kremlin understands.

Russia has been asking for cooperation and trade and improving relations, and the west has been telling Russia who Russians should elect and why everything they do is wrong.

Putin has had enough, and clearly a lot of Russians have had enough.

If the west can ignore Kiev killing Ukrainians then they wont care if those Ukrainians want to now join the Russian federation... Putin went in wanting to get rid of the rat bags that have taken over and then let the Ukrainians decide their future but it seems when you take away the rat bags it appears the rest prefer Russia to the west... yet another case where the west gambled and was hoping to damage and diminish Russia and the opposite happens instead.

Whats the point about this talk about nukes, and threating Finland and Sweden? I just don't understand what good can come from it.

Russia could not fight all of HATO and would not try because that would be a conflict of self defence.... destroying a threat for Russia, they don't want to invade and occupy the west... it is pretty clear that if the west wont cooperate then it will be walled off and ignored... but with nuclear weapons deployments in new HATO countries then Russia will need to change its posture too, which means they become very relevant... it little conflict can't be allowed to start and then grow out of control... any attack will need to be stomped on hard to stop such behaviour from being considered an option by the west... but it is OK because Russia wont stomp on Finland... the US could care less about Russians killing ex-Russians... it would be fun for them... like getting Indians to fight the Chinese... they could care less who gets killed because it is not them getting killed...

An attack from Finnish territory would be considered something endorsed by Brussels and Washington, which would require attacks on those locations in addition to the necessary strikes needed to stop the actual attack of course.