Sweden and Finland accession to NATO

It was NATO membership goal, executed by 8 years in a row of military buildup targeted for a single task that brought misery on the Ukro state, not EU accession how it is being portraited for propaganda purposes.

I don't agree. HATO membership is not something magical that will protect any country... if Georgia was part of HATO and they attacked Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia I don't think the US would have sent any troops or any real support to help them.

Kiev was planning to invade the Donbass and carrying on through the Lugansk and attack the Crimea.

Putin invaded the Ukraine because war was happening no matter what he did... he just took advantage of advanced knowledge and took the first punch...

He knows the war would be blamed on him and on Russia so being able to claim he didn't start it and was only reacting to the aggressive moves of Kiev would mean nothing at all, so taking the first punch seriously damaged Kiev and got Russian forces quickly into useful positions where they could get the job done.... the west will cry for the dead in a way they never did for any western invasions of countries that are far more numerous and deadly than Russias attacks for quite some time...

This is about bio weapons and nazis and nukes and an invasion anyway... none of which would apply to Finland or Sweden.

They are just european countries not wanting to be left standing up when the music stops... they would have more to lose being cut off from the west than being cut off from Russia so that is the play they are going with... and it really makes no difference... they have been defacto in HATO for quite some time already.

GarryB wrote:
He knows the war would be blamed on him and on Russia so being able to claim he didn't start it and was only reacting to the aggressive moves of Kiev would mean nothing at all, so taking the first punch seriously damaged Kiev and got Russian forces quickly into useful positions where they could get the job done.....

Calling the Russian disaster outside Kiev for the first 3 months of the war a "useful position" might be pushing in a bit.

Calling the Russian manouver of forces away from Kiev a disaster?

In what respect?

Were the forced back by massive nazi counter attack?

No.

They were ordered to move and only after they moved enemy forces moved in to the positions they had held.

They moved because they had completed their mission... likely a dual role mission of being close to Kiev in case the country collapsed into civil war because right minded people saw a chance to get rid of their nazi oppressors and were spurred on to take that opportunity, but such a force was never big enough to take the city by force, so the other role was to keep Kiev from sending all its forces to the south and east to oppose Russian forces.

After they had been in position around Kiev for a while it was clear the nazi grip on the people was secure... no surprise... they had 8 years to eliminate rational people from any positons of power or influence, but it was certainly worth a shot, but the more important role of pinning down the vast majority of their forces in the north and the east in case of further incursions from Belarus meant the Russian forces in the South could take their time and grind up the enemy forces and take out fuel dumps and ammo dumps and vehicle parks as well as repair and production sites for war material.

After three months the soldiers that were around Kiev are doing a great job further south and to the east and are working to free up the pro Russian regions so they can return to normal and get their lives back.

Russia then needs to decide what the rest of what used to be the Ukraine will look like... resistance means they can make more and more of the decisions for themselves to suit their own needs and wants... if the Orcs had surrendered immediately or simply fulfilled their agreements from Minsk they would have two autonomous regions within their borders and Crimea would be gone but they would have Ukrainian soldiers on the border with Russia... lots of mischief potential possible there... but it isn't to be. Fresh water is secured for Crimea and Russia will have friendly regions on its border if not new territories for the RF, but the rest of what was the Ukraine will be getting smaller and smaller every day.

Zelensky can fight with as much western weapons and ammo as he pleases... it is not like they can win... they will just end up with less and less the longer this goes on... and considering they are nazis that is a good thing all round.

GarryB wrote:Calling the Russian manouver of forces away from Kiev a disaster?

In what respect?

Were the forced back by massive nazi counter attack?

No.

They were ordered to move and only after they moved enemy forces moved in to the positions they had held.

They moved because they had completed their mission... likely a dual role mission of being close to Kiev in case the country collapsed into civil war because right minded people saw a chance to get rid of their nazi oppressors and were spurred on to take that opportunity, but such a force was never big enough to take the city by force, so the other role was to keep Kiev from sending all its forces to the south and east to oppose Russian forces.

After they had been in position around Kiev for a while it was clear the nazi grip on the people was secure... no surprise... they had 8 years to eliminate rational people from any positons of power or influence, but it was certainly worth a shot, but the more important role of pinning down the vast majority of their forces in the north and the east in case of further incursions from Belarus meant the Russian forces in the South could take their time and grind up the enemy forces and take out fuel dumps and ammo dumps and vehicle parks as well as repair and production sites for war material.

After three months the soldiers that were around Kiev are doing a great job further south and to the east and are working to free up the pro Russian regions so they can return to normal and get their lives back.

Russia then needs to decide what the rest of what used to be the Ukraine will look like... resistance means they can make more and more of the decisions for themselves to suit their own needs and wants... if the Orcs had surrendered immediately or simply fulfilled their agreements from Minsk they would have two autonomous regions within their borders and Crimea would be gone but they would have Ukrainian soldiers on the border with Russia... lots of mischief potential possible there... but it isn't to be. Fresh water is secured for Crimea and Russia will have friendly regions on its border if not new territories for the RF, but the rest of what was the Ukraine will be getting smaller and smaller every day.

Zelensky can fight with as much western weapons and ammo as he pleases... it is not like they can win... they will just end up with less and less the longer this goes on... and considering they are nazis that is a good thing all round.

They moved in to take Kiev when thier first lighter airborne units failed. They tried for three months to incircle the capital but was unable. This because of heavy resistens from the Ukrainans but mostly because of incompetens in everything from tactics, logistics and planning from the Russian leaders. They learned thier lesson somewhat and backed off and returned to a more classic Russian way of fighting, destroy everything with artillery and then move forward.

And stop this nonsense about Nazis. Plain Russian bs propaganda. No one outside Russia belives a word about that crap.

walle83 wrote:

GarryB wrote:Calling the Russian manouver of forces away from Kiev a disaster?

In what respect?

Were the forced back by massive nazi counter attack?

No.

They were ordered to move and only after they moved enemy forces moved in to the positions they had held.

They moved because they had completed their mission... likely a dual role mission of being close to Kiev in case the country collapsed into civil war because right minded people saw a chance to get rid of their nazi oppressors and were spurred on to take that opportunity, but such a force was never big enough to take the city by force, so the other role was to keep Kiev from sending all its forces to the south and east to oppose Russian forces.

After they had been in position around Kiev for a while it was clear the nazi grip on the people was secure... no surprise... they had 8 years to eliminate rational people from any positons of power or influence, but it was certainly worth a shot, but the more important role of pinning down the vast majority of their forces in the north and the east in case of further incursions from Belarus meant the Russian forces in the South could take their time and grind up the enemy forces and take out fuel dumps and ammo dumps and vehicle parks as well as repair and production sites for war material.

After three months the soldiers that were around Kiev are doing a great job further south and to the east and are working to free up the pro Russian regions so they can return to normal and get their lives back.

Russia then needs to decide what the rest of what used to be the Ukraine will look like... resistance means they can make more and more of the decisions for themselves to suit their own needs and wants... if the Orcs had surrendered immediately or simply fulfilled their agreements from Minsk they would have two autonomous regions within their borders and Crimea would be gone but they would have Ukrainian soldiers on the border with Russia... lots of mischief potential possible there... but it isn't to be. Fresh water is secured for Crimea and Russia will have friendly regions on its border if not new territories for the RF, but the rest of what was the Ukraine will be getting smaller and smaller every day.

Zelensky can fight with as much western weapons and ammo as he pleases... it is not like they can win... they will just end up with less and less the longer this goes on... and considering they are nazis that is a good thing all round.

They moved in to take Kiev when thier first lighter airborne units failed. They tried for three months to incircle the capital but was unable. This because of heavy resistens from the Ukrainans but mostly because of incompetens in everything from tactics, logistics and planning from the Russian leaders. They learned thier lesson somewhat and backed off and returned to a more classic Russian way of fighting, destroy everything with artillery and then move forward.

And stop this nonsense about Nazis. Plain Russian bs propaganda. No one outside Russia belives a word about that crap.

What a bunch of crock. The motor-rifle units, artillery, armoured, air defense, etc... all arrived within 2-3 days of the VDV vanguard. The VDV secured all the locations it was supposed to. Gostomosel - Ukrainians couldn't retake it no matter how many reinforcements they flooded in. The VDV weren't dislodged from anywhere else wither.
The regular forces moved in to everywhere they were supposed to too. They clearly never got the order to take the city. And you can speculate as to why that is. My version is that the hopes of splitting the Ukrainian elite, prying the generals away from the political leadership, or otherwise destabilizing the situation in Kiev did not pan-out.
Others say that they were never in sufficient numbers to take the city in the first place and that it was a pure feint - although I would counter with questioning the point of bringing in so much hardware if you wouldn't use it should the opportunity happen to present itself. The best feint is the one you're prepared to make real.

With all that said that though, Washington's and its vassals make-believe that you are busy regurgitating doesn't win a war. Nor the lionization of Ukrainian defenses as having repelled the Russian military, or the checklist of incompetences you've made up. None of that is real. Mistakes happen in every war and Ukrainian resistance was significant but by all accounts they were cratered around Kiev and resorted to moving around in DHL vans and ambulances by the 3rd week.
The reason you don't believe in Nazis is the same reason you believe in everything you've written - it suits you, but it has nothing to do with reality.

They moved in to take Kiev when thier first lighter airborne units failed.

Ohh please... are you that dumb.... the VDV was sent to capture the airfield... which they did but you think they were supposed to march on and take Kiev... are you kidding me?

There was never any move to take Kiev, it was partially surrounded and then the forces waited.

If the Nazi army collapsed and Zelensky surrendered they might have marched in to Kiev to accept his surrender but they never had anything like the number of forces to take Kiev which clearly suggests that was not their intended role.

They tried for three months to incircle the capital but was unable.

If they had completely encircled it who would feed the population of Kiev?

They don't want Kiev... they want the nazis out of donbass and lugansk...

This because of heavy resistens from the Ukrainans but mostly because of incompetens in everything from tactics, logistics and planning from the Russian leaders.

What heavy resistance. At no point were they pushed back by force around Kiev... they held their positions and waited... enormous columns of forces were unmolested and intact stretching back to Belarus.

The heavy resistance in Kiev was Zelensky handing assault rifles out to the general population and having friendly fire incidents because everyone thought the people with the guns were Russian spies and saboteurs...

They learned thier lesson somewhat and backed off and returned to a more classic Russian way of fighting, destroy everything with artillery and then move forward.

Yes, stick to your stereotypes... they will save you.

And stop this nonsense about Nazis. Plain Russian bs propaganda. No one outside Russia belives a word about that crap.

Of course a European will protect Nazis, there has been plenty of evidence found and shown that proves these extremists are nazis.

The VDV secured all the locations it was supposed to. Gostomosel - Ukrainians couldn't retake it no matter how many reinforcements they flooded in. The VDV weren't dislodged from anywhere else wither.

And yet those same reliable reports that tell us there are no nazis also tell us the VDV got crushed in those attacks and were defeated and pushed back multiple times with Putin having to throw more and more bodies into the meat grinder to achieve his aims... ironic considering what is actually happening.

Certain soldiers on a certain island were also brave heroes that threw back the evil Russian invaders... until the truth was revealed and like sensible normal people they surrendered rather than be hopelessly slaughtered.

My version is that the hopes of splitting the Ukrainian elite, prying the generals away from the political leadership, or otherwise destabilizing the situation in Kiev did not pan-out.

The Nazis had 8 years to get rid of pro Russian sympathisers... the chances of a coup in Kiev were tiny... the purpose of those forces near Kiev was to tie down Orc forces across the country so they don't all rush to the Donbass and overwhelm the force of Russians there to dismantle their military.

After a few weeks of destroying armour and ammo and fuel depots the Orc army was no longer a mobile military force, so the need for the forces near Kiev diminished so they withdrew.

Orcs rushing forward to occupy the territory they held and declared victory is hilarious... like the British victory at Dunkirk.

Others say that they were never in sufficient numbers to take the city in the first place and that it was a pure feint - although I would counter with questioning the point of bringing in so much hardware if you wouldn't use it should the opportunity happen to present itself. The best feint is the one you're prepared to make real.

They had forces that could surround Kiev and lay seige to it, but not enough forces to take it by force... if they wanted to take it they would first need to seal it up and then bring in more forces to take it, but they did neither... which suggests they were there to prevent Kiev from sending everything to the Donbass.

The reason you don't believe in Nazis is the same reason you believe in everything you've written - it suits you, but it has nothing to do with reality.

The reality is that just like the Ukraine they have to pick a side and they depend more on the west than they do on Russia so reality has nothing to do with it.

A Ukrainian leader chooses a Russian deal... that Russian deal was not exclusive... as far as the Russians were concerned they could have taken the EU and the Chinese deals too... it was the EU deal where they said if you take our deal you can't trade with Russia or China... and they spent 5 billion and kicked him out of office with lots of violence and death.

If Sweden or Finland wanted to remain neutral do you think the US would not do to them what they did to the Ukraine?

Even if they didn't how long before the EU and HATO decided to extend their sanctions against Russia to sanctions against countries that trade with Russia.

Essentially Sweden and Finland have to choose between cutting all ties with Russia or all ties with the EU and the west, so I perfectly understand their choice in the matter, but don't go trying to convince me that the Russians are the liars and the aggressors and the bad guys in this... you are giving in to the real bad guys because you know they will not only **** you over but your family and your kids too.

Instead of trying to put all the blame on Russia why don't you man up and accept the reality here... you have just become a colony of the US.

The way they are acting though I don't think you need to worry about it for too long... eventually the EU will realise what the US has done to them and that Russia was rather more important to them than the US will be... no cheap oil and gas from the US to help the EU through this...

B-52 bombers together with Swedish Gripens flying over the capital Stockholm.

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/amerikanska-bombplan-over-stockholm-ovning

B-52s against Russia would fare even less than they did against Northern Vietnam in Operation Linebacker II.
B-52 against peer adversary is just a cruise missile bomb truck. Similar to Tu-95 using cruise missiles in this operation.

Actually it is worse than that... those Bears are relatively safe in Russian air space and they only have to get to 5,000km range of their targets before they can launch their missiles and turn home.

B-52s in the US would be relatively safe too until they start to approach Russian air defences which are expanding east and north...

US B-52s over Europe are in serious trouble... their long range means nothing and they are much closer to SAMs and Russian interceptors in Europe making them much more vulnerable.

Any bases they might operate from become ground zero to nukes from Russia.

walle83 wrote:B-52 bombers together with Swedish Gripens flying over the capital Stockholm.

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/amerikanska-bombplan-over-stockholm-ovning

So is this soap opera ever going to end, are Sweden and Finland going to enter NATO sometime this year or are you going to keep boring us with updates once a week?

Far more exciting stuff than B-52s flying over Stockholm is happening a bit further south in the Ukraine.

flamming_python wrote:

walle83 wrote:B-52 bombers together with Swedish Gripens flying over the capital Stockholm.

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/amerikanska-bombplan-over-stockholm-ovning

So is this soap opera ever going to end, are Sweden and Finland going to enter NATO sometime this year or are you going to keep boring us with updates once a week?

Far more exciting stuff than B-52s flying over Stockholm is happening a bit further south in the Ukraine.

Would be strange to write about Ukraine in this thread wouldnt it? Although the "exciting stuff", like you call it, has lead to the reaction you clearly are reading about here.

flamming_python wrote:
The reason you don't believe in Nazis is the same reason you believe in everything you've written - it suits you, but it has nothing to do with reality.

Yes because the reality is that "Nazi" Ukraine was planing to attack Russia and was delveloping nuclear and biological weapons with the help from the west, aha sure yeah.

I wouldnt trust a Russian statement or a word from Putin if my life depended on in, its been absolutly 100% lies and horseshit propaganda the last 6 months. If any western leaders belived a word from mr Putin ever again I would call them braindead.

What reaction?

America said all bitches line up... and now Sweden and Finland are putting their hands up... along with their asses to join the "we don't spend enough on defence" club.

Funny thing is that the biggest spender... the US... is not very prepared and demands its european allies do more... you guys picked a great time to join.

Does Finland want 100 F-35s or 200?

How about Sweden?

250?

GarryB wrote:What reaction?

America said all bitches line up... and now Sweden and Finland are putting their hands up... along with their asses to join the "we don't spend enough on defence" club.

Funny thing is that the biggest spender... the US... is not very prepared and demands its european allies do more... you guys picked a great time to join.

Does Finland want 100 F-35s or 200?

How about Sweden?

250?

Sweden and Finland had no intrest to join Nato before Russias Invasion, the US could say whatever they wanted about that. Thier reaction is all on Putin.

Sweden dont want the F-35. Saab Gripen will be thier main fighter untill atleast 2045. Finland has been flying US fighters for 20 years, no suprice they choose the F-35. They are replacing 64 F-18s with the same number of new fighters.

walle83 wrote:
Sweden and Finland had no intrest to join Nato before Russias Invasion, the US could say whatever they wanted about that. Thier reaction is all on Putin.

Sweden dont want the F-35. Saab Gripen will be thier main fighter untill atleast 2045. Finland has been flying US fighters for 20 years, no suprice they choose the F-35. They are replacing 64 F-18s with the same number of new fighters.

What nonsense.
Sweden and Finnland have been partners in assosciation agreements and joint military exercises and work since the 90's. Defacto NATO but the name.

Sweden and Finland with their anti-russian politics since years have only to blame themselves if something happens to them. And please don't bring Simo Hayaä up as some sort of "we fight the russkis". You are societies riddled with muslisms and LGBTQ nutcases. Your society will not be ready for anything.

If any western leaders belived a word from mr Putin ever again I would call them braindead.

Brain dead is how I perceive most western leaders already... if Putin could get through to the brain dead with lies or truths it would be a miracle... brain dead means you can't get through to them at all...

But then western propaganda is based around not knowing the meaning of words and misusing them to make a point... like democratically elected dictator Putin...

If they want russian oil and gas they will have to believe Putin.

The whole point of Sweden and Finland joining NATO is so that they don't have to fight the russkies. That's the stated logic anyhow

Of course one has to avoid the same deal the Ukraine had with the US, as described by Arestovich back in 2019. Whereby the Ukraine would first have to militarily defeat Russia (or rather hold its invasion back for the month or two necessary for economic sanctions to cripple it and incite a revolution) before being welcomed into NATO as a full member.. presumably into the EU as well

Well Finland and Sweden are viewed as more core Europe.. proper Europeans rather than the expendable pseudo-Russians such as the Ukrainians.
So I doubt they'll be presented with the same conditions. However that doesn't mean that they will avoid conflict

There is still the potential for blockading the Finnish straights by Finland and Estonia as soon as the former enters NATO, while Lithuania and Poland blockade Kaliningrad from land. This will force Russia into military action.

As for Nazis - this is the ideological justification.
It by itself is not the reason for the war, which has more geopolitical causes and in the immediate sense probably precipitated by the new document the Ukraine signed with NATO in Oct. 2021 together with its preparations to invade not 'Russia', but the Donbass. This is something that Russia has tried to de-incentivize the Ukraine from doing for the last 8 years. An invasion of the Donbass would be no more acceptable to Russia than an invasion of Abkhazia by Georgia; inaction would create severe domestic discontent, there would be a mass humanitarian and refugee crisis, Ukrainian success would open the door for the stationing of NATO troops in the country (which were already there unofficially by Feb. 2022) and crucially, possible military operations against the Crimea in the future. Those last two points are what Putin alluded to during the meeting with Macron a few days before the operation was launched.

However the Nazis do exist, they have conducted a whole bunch of war-crimes, disappearances, and so on over the past 8 years and continue to do so. The people they have been targetting and continue to do so are mainly ethnic Russians. 1500 people disappeared from Mariupol from 2014-2021. The recent strike against the railway station in Kramatorsk with a Tochka after ordering everyone to gather there for evacuation the previous day.
Of course they do kill 'real' Ukrainians as well, they're not above doing that. Like those people they tied up and had executed in Bucha, outside Kiev.

ALAMO wrote:A fun fact.
There is a thing called Saimaa Canal.
It runs through Russian territory, but it is a waste Finlands river&lake system that is connected to it.
It is a door for Finnish wood industry for shipping its production to the Baltics. More than 2 mln tonns of cargo is transported there each year - a number not so much impressive, but if we consider one type of business only it gains some colors.
The official lease of the canal to Finns lasts till 2063.
It plays close to zero roles for Russkie, and is quite important for a whole region of Finnland.
Considering the situation, how impossible is terminating the lease from the Russian side, how do you think, using a 1-5 scale?  

Is that the one which was built during the Tsar's era?

I thought all that stuff was put out of commission this year

Werewolf wrote:

walle83 wrote:
Sweden and Finland had no intrest to join Nato before Russias Invasion, the US could say whatever they wanted about that. Thier reaction is all on Putin.

Sweden dont want the F-35. Saab Gripen will be thier main fighter untill atleast 2045. Finland has been flying US fighters for 20 years, no suprice they choose the F-35. They are replacing 64 F-18s with the same number of new fighters.

What nonsense.
Sweden and Finnland have been partners in assosciation agreements and joint military exercises and work since the 90's. Defacto NATO but the name.

Sweden and Finland with their anti-russian politics since years have only to blame themselves if something happens to them. And please don't bring Simo Hayaä up as some sort of "we fight the russkis". You are societies riddled with muslisms and LGBTQ nutcases. Your society will not be ready for anything.

That has nothing to do with joining Nato today. If Russia havnt invaded Ukraine neither Finland or Sweden would have applied. And again the F-35 has nothing to do with anything.

And the so called "anti-russian politics" was absolutly correct, the reality shows the the Russian cant be trusted.