Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+52
lancelot
mnztr
TMA1
Scorpius
sepheronx
Podlodka77
wilhelm
caveat emptor
Swgman_BK
bac112
Krepost
Lennox
Autodestruct
Broski
limb
Backman
Arrow
tomazy
ALAMO
Russian_Patriot_
x_54_u43
Kiko
Rodion_Romanovic
KoTeMoRe
thegopnik
JohninMK
AJ-47
Isos
dino00
miketheterrible
william.boutros
flamming_python
medo
PhSt
marcellogo
Gazputin
LMFS
Hole
kvs
Cyberspec
higurashihougi
PapaDragon
George1
TheArmenian
magnumcromagnon
Austin
TR1
GarryB
Viktor
bhramos
Stealthflanker
Admin
56 posters

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15821
    Points : 15956
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  kvs Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:47 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    kvs wrote:The recent crash of the light transport prototype shows that Russia needs to introduce new heavier class engine types.   Forcing
    smaller engines is just begging for problems.   Some whip cracking needs to be done since the western parasite corporate culture
    is creeping in.  All of the sudden everything is so expensive and corners need to be cut.   Except that the engineers are not making
    more money and the cost of raw materials has not jumped.  


    Is it really that more expensive to fly an Il-76 than that of these other smaller planes?  I mean, how much cheaper?

    I do not think for the army this is an issue.   Russia could just allocate fuel to it since Russia produces the fuel and extracts
    the oil.   Smaller transport craft have some value in that they can use smaller runways and do save on fuel if it's subject to market
    pricing.   But they need properly sized engines and not hacks.
    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 780
    Points : 782
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Krepost Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    You don't hear much about its big sister though - VK-1600. It was supposed to begin bench test trials late this year.

    Wasn't that engine going to be used in the new Il-112 or Il-114 light aircraft?

    No. The engine of the Il-112V is the Klimov TV7-117ST turboprop with 2,610 kW (3,500 hp) each.


    Last edited by Krepost on Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 148
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: United Engine Corporation

    Post  Autodestruct Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:05 am

    Is it really that more expensive to fly an Il-76 than that of these other smaller planes? I mean, how much cheaper?

    The maintenance on the aircraft and the facilities that house them are probably where the big difference in operating cost comes from.
    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 148
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: United Engine Corporation

    Post  Autodestruct Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:16 am

    The recent crash of the light transport prototype shows that Russia needs to introduce new heavier class engine types. Forcing
    smaller engines is just begging for problems. Some whip cracking needs to be done since the western parasite corporate culture
    is creeping in. All of the sudden everything is so expensive and corners need to be cut. Except that the engineers are not making
    more money and the cost of raw materials has not jumped.

    Klimov does have a PDV-4000 (~4000kW engine) in development. But it is a long way off; they've talked about it being a step change with technology. Klimov in recent years has prioritized programs that could be quickly completed, given the deterioration of Ukrainian supply options. So they've modernized the VK-2500, and worked to build the VK-650 and VK-1600. The later are really just scaled versions of the VK-800 which are more optimized for modern production processes like 3d printing. And then, of course, they've tried to stretch the TV7.

    They've always had a desire to implement full next generation designs...but resources. And not just financial. Time is important too.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40438
    Points : 40938
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:31 am

    Regarding the VK-1600 I only found this:

    https://rostec.ru/en/news/klimov-presents-design-of-vk-1600v-engine/?sphrase_id=304442

    The recent crash of the light transport prototype shows that Russia needs to introduce new heavier class engine types.

    No it doesn't... the aircraft crashed because the engine that failed didn't feather and the thrust on one wing from the running engine and the high drag from the props on the stalled other engine caused the aircraft to roll and crash into the ground.

    What it needed was an auto feathering system that worked faster.

    Having engines that are too powerful just make them less efficient and more expensive to operate.

    Forcing
    smaller engines is just begging for problems.

    The engine was not under powered, the problem was the prop blades didn't feather.

    Some whip cracking needs to be done since the western parasite corporate culture
    is creeping in. All of the sudden everything is so expensive and corners need to be cut. Except that the engineers are not making
    more money and the cost of raw materials has not jumped.

    Obviously firing everyone involved is the best solution so that they can make all the same mistakes again because of a lack of experience of the new team who are only doing the job because the preferred team got fired.

    Engine problems are very specific... why should the entire management team be fired because of such a problem?

    Is it really that more expensive to fly an Il-76 than that of these other smaller planes? I mean, how much cheaper?

    A combination of rather more expensive, but also involving unable to operate from more isolated airstrips too.

    It is simply not practical to just have big aircraft.

    Would you trade in the family car for a 50 seater bus?

    Get all the groceries in one trip for all your friends and family... for a month.

    The best way to ruin an aircraft design is to give it the wrong engines.... more power is just stupid and wont solve the fundamental problem.... the aircraft rolled over because of the thrust from one side and the drag from the other side... extra power would have made no difference to what happened, while a propeller that feathered properly when shut down would have saved the aircraft because it would be able to fly with one engine running.
    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 148
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: United Engine Corporation

    Post  Autodestruct Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:52 pm

    RUSNANO has developed a wear resistant coating for composite fans for aircraft engines.

    Specialists of Plakart, a member of RUSNANO Group, in less than 5 months developed a wear-resistant coating for the feather ends of the blades of the PD-35 ultra-large thrust engine compressor, the Group's press service reported.

    The new coating is planned to be used on promising wide-body aircraft - long-haul passenger and heavy transport aircraft, including the Russian-Chinese airliner CR929.

    The creation of a new PD-35 aircraft engine is being implemented within the framework of the state program "Development of the Aviation Industry". It is based on breakthrough technologies, innovative solutions and new materials.

    As part of the support for the implementation of a key project in the field of domestic civil aircraft construction, more than 44.6 billion rubles were allocated by order of the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Mikhail Mishustin.

    Plakart JSC is a portfolio company of RUSNANO JSC, established in 2010 to implement a project to create a network of innovative centers for the production of nanocoatings by methods of gas-thermal spraying and surfacing. Plakart performs work both in its own workshops located in the Moscow region, Perm, Tyumen, Nizhny Novgorod, and Naberezhnye Chelny, and at the site of installation and operation of equipment throughout Russia and the CIS.

    https://aviation21.ru/v-rosnano-razrabotano-iznosostojkoe-pokrytie-dlya-aviacionnyx-dvigatelej-novyx-rossijskix-samolyotov/

    GarryB, medo, dino00 and LMFS like this post

    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 148
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: United Engine Corporation

    Post  Autodestruct Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:06 am

    PD-35 flight tests scheduled for 2024, certification in 2027.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2021/12/28/17251/

    dino00, DerWolf, LMFS and Lennox like this post

    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 148
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: United Engine Corporation

    Post  Autodestruct Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:18 am

    CIAM summed up the results of 2021

    The article linked below covers their activities for the year (work on PD-8 and PD-35 engine cores, VK-650 bench test, PD-14 volcanic ash test, small engine development, as well as the hybrid powerplant flying on the Yak-40LL), their education work, and future activities. An interesting tidbit is that the product 30 engine is not discussed at all.

    Deputy General Director for Science Alexander Lanshin made an interesting remark: "Although this year is an intermediate one, a year of preparation for a decisive leap, we managed to achieve a number of significant results." This suggests much more will come in 2022-2023.

    He mentions a few things not seen yet such as a fan with ultra-low circumferential speed (sounds like a geared fan), hydrogen fuel tests, and ceramic bearings (which need very little lubrication and can even last for years with none).

    https://aviation21.ru/v-ciam-podveli-itogi-2021-goda/

    dino00 and LMFS like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5146
    Points : 5142
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  LMFS Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:49 am

    GarryB, GunshipDemocracy, Rodion_Romanovic, lancelot, Kiko, TMA1 and Rasisuki Nebia like this post

    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 780
    Points : 782
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Krepost Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:14 am

    VK-1600V

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 148
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: United Engine Corporation

    Post  Autodestruct Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:08 am

    UEC-Aviadvigatel teams won two awards for Aircraft Builder of the Year on December 20th. The first was for the category "For an effective system of aftersale service of the locally produced aviation equipment" and it was won on the basis of their work in developing a means to repair/restore high pressure turbine blades made of Rhenium-Tantalum strengthened superalloy ZHS32-VI with laser powder deposition. The second was for the category "For the creation of a new technology" and it was won on the basis of their work in automating full-cycle testing for turbofan engines.

    https://avid.ru/en/news/2021/12/24/2123/

    GarryB and LMFS like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 11099
    Points : 11077
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Hole Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:48 pm




    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Fjger010
    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Fjger011

    George1, dino00, PapaDragon, Rodion_Romanovic, thegopnik, LMFS and Lennox like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11589
    Points : 11557
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Isos Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:55 pm

    What is the goal of this engine ?
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5146
    Points : 5142
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  LMFS Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:00 pm

    Isos wrote:What is the  goal of this engine ?

    6th gen fighter. It was already said that they were developing it based on the gas generator of the izd. 30 and that it would keep the same footprint of the AL-31/izd. 30
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11589
    Points : 11557
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Isos Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:00 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:What is the  goal of this engine ?

    6th gen fighter. It was already said that they were developing it based on the gas generator of the izd. 30 and that it would keep the same footprint of the AL-31/izd. 30

    But what are those 3 circuits about ? Subsonic supersonic hypersonic modes ?
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5146
    Points : 5142
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  LMFS Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:43 am

    Isos wrote:But what are those 3 circuits about ? Subsonic supersonic hypersonic modes ?

    They allow to create a variable cycle engine which has a great flexibility to be economic at low speed (max bypass flow) or very powerful for supercruising (all the air through the core), at the same time. Besides it allows to reduce spillage drag and helps with the cooling of the plane, among other advantages. Every major power is working on them currently for the new generation of fighters.

    GunshipDemocracy likes this post

    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1807
    Points : 1809
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  thegopnik Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:47 am

    two versions hmmmm? guess anyone' guess is good as mine on what those 2 aircrafts will be perhaps? scratch I know the bottom one is going to be fucking fast because it says "high supersonic" would mach 3-4 be pushing it?

    GarryB likes this post

    Broski
    Broski


    Posts : 772
    Points : 770
    Join date : 2021-07-12

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Broski Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:04 pm

    Are they developing a ramjet or a scramjet engine for their next generation interceptor?
    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1807
    Points : 1809
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  thegopnik Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:24 pm

    you will get more questions than answers, 1. there was alot of detonation engine news for aircrafts so neither ram or scramjet engines. 2. it appears theres a regular and a high supersonic 3 circuit engines and the mig-41 or next gen interceptor had claims of mach 3-4(which counts as being called high supersonic) so I am assuming one will be used for a 6th gen and the other perhaps for the mig-41 since we have two different versions?
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40438
    Points : 40938
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:20 am

    Their current problems particularly in production of transport planes is lack of a range of different engines in different thrust categories... they are solving that by making new engine designs that can be scaled to different thrust levels to suit different jobs.

    Hopefully they will do the same with these new types of engines... certainly a supercruising fighter is interesting, but a supercruising drone would be a real challenge too... though a variable cycle engine for a drone might be a bit of overkill... maybe small turbofans to get it airborne and a separate ramjet for efficient sustained supersonic flight.

    Certainly the flight performance demands for a fighter and an interceptor are different in the same way the requirements for the MiG-25 and Su-27 were different and the MiG-31 and Su-35 are different, and of course the MiG-41 and Su-57 will be different too... which is not to say that flying fast is not useful for fighters, but it is very important for interceptors to be able to meet the incoming threat further out from its targets.

    Most fighters don't fly around at anywhere near top speed because you have to go full AB in straight and level flight to accelerate to such speeds, and it reduces your flight range and endurance and your ability to manouver.
    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5146
    Points : 5142
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  LMFS Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:54 am

    Posting this again for reference:

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Uec_2021

    The basis of the new Russian military engines for tactical planes is the gas generator of the izd. 30. That is the technological baseline for the current developments, the same AL-31F was the reference for the 4th gen.

    An engine for the PAK-DP can be developed using this core. It can be many things, since we don't have the TTZ of the program. But if high supersonic flight was required, a concept similar to RTA or an after burning VCE would seem appropriate and able to deliver up to 4 M

    As to the 3 streams engine, its gas generator would be based also in the izd. 30 but with further improvements, plus the bypass circuit and low pressure sections would be changed. It allows for more flexibility than a 2 stream VCE and is widely considered the kind of engine that will power the 6th gen fighters.

    dino00 and GunshipDemocracy like this post

    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1807
    Points : 1809
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  thegopnik Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:55 pm

    Refractory "armor" of Samara scientists will extend the life and reliability of aircraft and rocket engines #Двигателестроение Roman Barsky Yesterday at 03:30 1255 0 Scientists of samara National Research University named after ak. S.P. Korolev came up with a coating to protect the structural elements of rocket and aircraft engines at extremely high temperatures. Refractory "armor" will prevent the destruction of the internal surfaces of nozzles and combustion chambers, turbine blades and other parts at a temperature of 1500 degrees Celsius. "This will significantly increase the service life and reliability of rocket and aircraft engines, gas pumping and power generating installations, as well as microgas turbine engines used on unmanned aerial vehicles," explained the author of the project Mikhail Giorbelidze. In structure, the coating resembles chain mail, consisting of layers of flat scales, which are specially located and fastened to each other. The thickness of all chain mail is less than half a millimeter. Inside the individual "scales" is a protective layer of material that does not allow aggressive components from the environment to penetrate to the engine parts. After the aircraft engine works out 25 thousand hours (this is the operational life between repair work), specialists check the condition of the coating and the engine element. If necessary, the coating can be applied again and used for another 25 thousand hours. There can be two or three such cycles of use, so the savings, taking into account the cost of engine parts, are tens of millions. After refining the technology, scientists will create prototypes of the coating for testing

    Источник контента: https://naukatehnika.com/ogneupornaya-bronya-samarskix-uchenyix-prodlit-resurs-i-nadezhnost-aviaczionnyix-i-raketnyix-dvigatelej.html
    naukatehnika.com

    GarryB, magnumcromagnon, kvs, lancelot and Arkanghelsk like this post

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8138
    Points : 8273
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Temporary engine coating upgrade story

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:31 pm

    thegopnik wrote:Refractory "armor" of Samara scientists will extend the life and reliability of aircraft and rocket engines #Двигателестроение Roman Barsky Yesterday at 03:30 1255 0 Scientists of samara National Research University named after ak. S.P. Korolev came up with a coating to protect the structural elements of rocket and aircraft engines at extremely high temperatures. Refractory "armor" will prevent the destruction of the internal surfaces of nozzles and combustion chambers, turbine blades and other parts at a temperature of 1500 degrees Celsius.   "This will significantly increase the service life and reliability of rocket and aircraft engines, gas pumping and power generating installations, as well as microgas turbine engines used on unmanned aerial vehicles," explained the author of the project Mikhail Giorbelidze.   In structure, the coating resembles chain mail, consisting of layers of flat scales, which are specially located and fastened to each other. The thickness of all chain mail is less than half a millimeter. Inside the individual "scales" is a protective layer of material that does not allow aggressive components from the environment to penetrate to the engine parts.   After the aircraft engine works out 25 thousand hours (this is the operational life between repair work), specialists check the condition of the coating and the engine element. If necessary, the coating can be applied again and used for another 25 thousand hours. There can be two or three such cycles of use, so the savings, taking into account the cost of engine parts, are tens of millions.     After refining the technology, scientists will create prototypes of the coating for testing

    Источник контента: https://naukatehnika.com/ogneupornaya-bronya-samarskix-uchenyix-prodlit-resurs-i-nadezhnost-aviaczionnyix-i-raketnyix-dvigatelej.html
    naukatehnika.com

    This is good news, although mods should probably move this to the proper thread:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7152-u-e-c-russian-aircraft-engines

    GarryB, thegopnik and Arkanghelsk like this post

    avatar
    bac112


    Posts : 6
    Points : 12
    Join date : 2021-05-16

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty interesting video (PD-14 - the main engine of Russia)

    Post  bac112 Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:35 pm

    Lennox likes this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18497
    Points : 19000
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  George1 Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:57 am

    bac112 wrote:

    introduce yourself pls here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/f6-member-introductions-and-rules

    Sponsored content


    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 10 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Nov 08, 2024 10:03 am