Syrian Civil War: News

SOC wrote:

mack8 wrote:Just like the other MILLIONS(!) of dead in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries ( and just counting the last 20 years), the blood of Syrian is on YOUR (USA) hands, YOU are guilty, it doesn't matter who and why did it before, all it's matters YOU are doing it NOW.  

Not me doing it.  But I guess that's my fault.

mack8 wrote:i hope not a stone will remain unburned in that messed up country of theirs, and if anything is left standing whoever survives must go there and raze it to the ground.

...and we're back to punishing everyone for the actions of a small percentage.  The problem is most of the world just doesn't seem to possess enough intelligence to realize that 1) most Americans could probably care less about anything outside our borders and 2) the government may represent America but it doesn't mean that all Americans agree with it.  But that's OK.  For being against action in Syria and even against continued US involvement in asinine adventures around the globe I guess it means I deserve to be nuked with the rest of us just because I couldn't figure out how to rig the election or something.  

If such a huge percentage of the world actually hated us I'd think they'd be smart enough to not let Coca-Cola, Pepsi, McDonald's, Apple, or Microsoft continue to take their money to prop up that system they allegedly despise so much.  Or maybe they're just speaking out of their asses and don't have the backbone to stand up for their convictions either if it'd cost them their precious iPod or soda.

What i posted in the above quote actually did not gave me peace since then, i have crossed a moral border that i should have NOT, lest i become the same as those i absolutely loath for their inhuman, criminal and ruthless actions. So i'd like to take back the part where i said " going there and razing everything to the ground", obviously out of anger and frustration, i deeply apologize for that. I certainly do NOT want to advocate whatsoever, condone or suggest killing or making suffer innocent persons of ANY race, location and so on.  

That being said, you are obviously a smart person and i'm sure you noticed the part where i said YOU (US), what gave you the idea i was talking about yourself? On the other hand if you don't want the world to loath you and your country anymore, and you don't want to be "nuked", you who go on so much about democracy, freedom , the founding fathers and so on, why don't you do something then? Being complicit and "not caring" puts in you in the same boat as those actually responsible for the suffering and killing you know.

As for the brands you mention (comm and tech wise), especially in Western Europe there is simply no other option, because the corrupt and vassal GOVERNMENTS here won't allow or support for instance  an european internet system, with servers HERE , totally independent, or an independent banking system, or  independent IT providers, because they are at YOUR government's and corporations service the cowards. Don't know about Russia, but China is definitely completely independent on that respect, kudos to them for not bowing to anyone. (please don't start with usual propagandistic "chicoms" human rights Tibet crap, they are the most advanced successful communist country ever, primarily because the people BELIEVES in what they are trying to build and achieve, despite past hardships).

As for Syria, unfortunately, while the UK surprisingly blocked (my respect to all the MPs who voted against war) that servile PM from involving this country in yet another american military adventure (so far), even if the US won't attack Syria shortly, they and their ME stooges will probably increase the weapons and jihadist manpower supply to the motley collection of "insurgent" groups in Syria, so there's more suffering and destruction for the syrians ahead. You can't make this s**t up they are supporting and arming the very same jihadism and extremist islamism that they started this "war on terror" against. One can wish these criminals and their stooges will end up in a new Nuremberg trial.

Mindstorm wrote:In mine opinion the best solution at the moment would be for Russia to declare any attack on Syrian territory, against SAA or FSA  by any external power without an UN mandate or the definitive results of scientific surveys on the events  ascertaining definitely the real side responsible for the CW attack , as a DIRECT ATTACK TO RUSSIAN FEDERATION's OWN TERRITORY, with possibilities to directly destroy or neutralize any asset menacing it.

Saudi Arabia threatens Russia with Islamic terror during Sochi Olympics

http://www.syrianews.cc/saudi-arabia-threatens-russia-olympic-terror/

http://www.businessinsider.com/saudis-russia-sochi-olympics-terrorism-syria-2013-8

If true Russia should get itself some of that pre-emptive self defence stuff the Americans talk about all the time.

Deep Throat wrote:

Mindstorm wrote:In mine opinion the best solution at the moment would be for Russia to declare any attack on Syrian territory, against SAA or FSA  by any external power without an UN mandate or the definitive results of scientific surveys on the events  ascertaining definitely the real side responsible for the CW attack , as a DIRECT ATTACK TO RUSSIAN FEDERATION's OWN TERRITORY, with possibilities to directly destroy or neutralize any asset menacing it.

Saudi Arabia threatens Russia with Islamic terror during Sochi Olympics

http://www.syrianews.cc/saudi-arabia-threatens-russia-olympic-terror/

http://www.businessinsider.com/saudis-russia-sochi-olympics-terrorism-syria-2013-8

I am not interested in far hypothesis ,conjectures and the likes ,clear ?

Only THREE elements :


1) A CW attack carried out in Syria just the day an UN team (strongly asked just by Syrian Government for months) , tasked to investigate allegations of pasted  use of CWs had arrived in Damascus.

2) The charge ,by part of US, of this CW attack on SAA.

3) The claim by part of US government to own "irrefutable proofs" of SAA's guilt.....without producing even only the shadow of ONE    



I have already explained how ANY SINGLE  factual and rational elements of this history lead toward the same direction : a ridiculously staged "false flag" attempt by part of the rebel terrorists , that was in an almost desperate situation and was perfectly aware that , without a direct NATO intervention, within some months theirs eradication from Syrian territory by part of SAA would have reached also theirs last bastion in the North of Syria, executed moreover in plain face of the UN team present just in those days in Syria.  



Now the central question :


CLAIMS have ZERO VALUE both in Science (unsubstantiated claims uttered in any serious scientific conference gain, to the tale-bearer, a prompt estrangement from the meeting among the wide derision of all the participants )   and in LAW (in any court at world the comical "j'accuse" of president B. Obama of last day, accompanied by the even more ridiculous four pages full of the TOTAL VOID , would have generated a burst of uncontrollable laughers by part of all the presents ).

The situation could appear even worth of the most classical comedy if only the stage of this farce was not the international panorama with its most important Institutions and Laws and in play was not present the supreme right of Anyone to be judged second the Law and only for factually ascertained crimes and a Dangerous War ,moved against another sovereign nation, moved on the basis  only of totally unsubstantiated, very inconsequential and completely irrational allegations by part moreover of an unfriendly nation with vested interest in destroy  the unity and capabilities of Syria .




The Russian scientific team tasked to investigate on a pasted (March) allegation of CW employment in Syria have produced something like over 900 pages of samples ,reproducible analysis and hard laboratory data, records,  all collected and processed within the strict protocols established by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons and have promptly submitted them just to the same Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, the UN department for WMD control and even the UN's Council with the adamant verdict that both the Sarin neurotoxin shell was not of industrial level (and distant light years from anything in SAA's arsenal) , very recently produced (only half February ) and the delivery vector was clearly made in a rebel controlled area (including some biological traces which could have been used for DNA matching).

This scientific hard dossier is strangely still there, avoided like death by all those purposely appointed authorities, in the very pathetical attempt to gain time ,for some interested nations, to precipitate in the meantime the events and have still some "space" for produce totally unsubstantiated, criminal allegations on those subjects.    





President B. Obama CLAIM to have irrefutable proofs of SAA's use of CWs in 21 August ? FANATSTIC  !!


Therefore let US teams of experts depose those "hard findings" on that........supposed....... CW attack of SAA  the 21 August in front of the UN team now charged of the task (image what aid..... ) at OBCW and Security Council,  exactly as done by our team of scientists and experts and enjoy the support and the praise and support of entire International Community (Russia included) and the silence of detractors



http://en.ria.ru/news/20130831/183081484/Putin-US-Claims-About-Syrian-Chemical-Attack-Unimaginable.html


OR  (much more likely)


Face the immense poor showing in front of any single person on this planet to have attempted to move a war aimed at undermine the unity of another sovereign nation on the basis of inexistent and/or purposely doctored proofs (which never pass the test of a serious scientific analysis )   and see for the next two or three centuries the name of president Barak Obama directly and instantly suggest the words : clown, liar, criminal.

"Yes, We Can........CHEAT AND LIE TO THE ENTIRE WORD"

The technical dossier was  officially deposed at UN .

This can provide an idea of what we talk here.


http://www.recordpub.com/ap%20international/2013/07/09/russia-syrian-rebels-made-used-sarin-nerve-gas



http://www.unmultimedia.org/tv/unifeed/2013/07/un-vitaly-churkin-2/


About other additional 800 related pages has been deposed, after, to OBCW.....


Now THAT is a serious, technical dossier founded on first hand, hard, empyrical findings and on the basis of which someone can begin to talk of objective resposibilities of a side or the other.  


Even merely the data and declaration collected independently by an United Nations leading investigator was, of course, in the same direction.







This self-embarrassing  NOTHING instead  


http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/USGassessmentonSyria08302013.pdf


is even "below critics" as very well said by President Putin


http://ria.ru/arab_riot/20130831/959871399.html


and very well represent how much down is capable to go the US (like already in the past with the Iraqi WMD allegations) ,crushing Truth , Law and even the Reason, only to promote its most lowest interests at the expense of entire sovereign Nations and theirs People.

IRAQ SHOULD SENT HARDCORE MUJAHIDEENS ND HARDCORE FIGHTERS OF IRAQ LIKE AL MAHDI ARMY IN SYRIA ND BADR BRIGADES 2 BATTLE AMERICAN ISRAELI TURKISH ND SAUDI FUNDED ND MADE ND ARMED CIA REBELS KNOWN AS F$A ND OTHER REBEL FORCES AL QAEDA = ALCIA DA IN SYRIA IF SYRIA FALLS NEXT IN LINE IS IRAQ AMERICAN ISRAELI TURKISH SAUDI ND IRANIAN GAME PLAN IS 2 DESTABLISE ALL ISLAMIC COUNTRIES ESPECIALLY ARAB COUNTRIES FOR THE INTERSTS OF AMERICA ND ISRAEL IF SYRIA FALLS ISRAEL WILL THEN TRY 2 MAKE IRAQ FALL ND START A CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ CIA REBELS F$A ND OTHER REBEL GROUPS SUCH AS AL QAEDA= AL CIA DA WILL THEN TRY 2 ENTER IRAQ ND DESTABLISE IRAQ ND START CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ SO ITS HIGH TIME IRAQ SEND HARDCORE MUJAHIDEENS ND FIGHTERS LIKE MAHDI ARMY ND BADR BRIGADES 2 SYRIA 2 HELP SYRIA 2 ROUT OUT THESE FOREIGN AMERICAN ISRAELI SAUDI ND TURKISH SPONSORED F$A ND AL QAEDA= AL CIA DA OTHERWISE IRAQ IS NEXT START SENDING IRAQI FIGHTERS ND MUJAHIDEENS IN SYRIA NOW OR IRAQ IS NEXT IN AMERICAN ISRAELI SAUDI ND TURKISH AGENDA. THANKS

U.S report lots of "assess with high confidence" but no hard evidence whatsoever

AlfaT8 the point is not in the WORDS ( high, low, middle....or any other ) which someone can use to CLAIM the reliability of the informations in its own possession ; the unique factor mattering in establishing level of confidence of a series of informations provided is only in the quality and quantity of the HARD ,VERIFIABLE ,DATA produced.

Do US own those series of irrefutable proofs ?

Very Well !!

Go to the preposed Institutions and expert Commissions (including the same UN team tasked to control allegation of CW usage that was in Syria ,after direct invitation of Syrian authorities, and jsut ...strangely....when someone decided to execute this attack.... ) and submit quickly those "irrefutable proofs" ,exactly as done by Russian team of specialists, at this point the outcomes coul be only two :

1) You gain the praise of all your allies , hush the voices and strongly tarnish the image of your international opponents and can act with a strong PO support and UN mandate.

2) You gain the shared international derision for the next two or three decades , your international opponents caught the chance to demolish totally your image and your credibility, in the future similar low level attempts to attack other sovereign Nations on the basis of false allegation, become almost impossible and self-defeating.


Anyone can see what obvious road has choiced US and can easily infer WHY    


Those four little pages of pure NOTHING produced by US DoD are a true offense to the intelligence of humankind and a sad testimony of a blind, elementary, mean arrogance (even more is used to begin a War against another sovereign Nation) which should cause waves after waves of objections in the western "supposedly free" media world .........naturally only if it was not, in reality, totally prone and subdued by those same lowest national interests.

mack8 wrote:What i posted in the above quote actually did not gave me peace since then, i have crossed a moral border that i should have NOT, lest i become the same as those i absolutely loath for their inhuman, criminal and ruthless actions. So i'd like to take back the part where i said " going there and razing everything to the ground", obviously out of anger and frustration, i deeply apologize for that. I certainly do NOT want to advocate whatsoever, condone or suggest killing or making suffer innocent persons of ANY race, location and so on.  

...and I fully respect you for coming back here and clarifying that.

mack8 wrote:That being said, you are obviously a smart person and i'm sure you noticed the part where i said YOU (US), what gave you the idea i was talking about yourself?

I included myself in the entire US, I was aware that it wasn't a personal you vs. me thing.  Although in a way it was personal in a broader sense, as in if someone were to nuke and raze the entire US, that would obviously include me!

mack8 wrote:On the other hand if you don't want the world to loath you and your country anymore, and you don't want to be "nuked", you who go on so much about democracy, freedom , the founding fathers and so on, why don't you do something then? Being complicit and "not caring" puts in you in the same boat as those actually responsible for the suffering and killing you know.

I'd run for office if I thought I had any chance of getting elected and then we'd see a lot of this crap end.  But that's no more than a pipe dream as I'm not a multimillionaire congressperson and my personal views...let's just say that I wouldn't be selectable as a candidate for EITHER party.  As it is we do tend to let the government know when things are going stupid, we send new people into office every two years.  The problem is that there is no guarantee that the new people won't become just like the old people that were de-elected.  Plus, there's the tunnel vision effect.  People tend to vote for the guy who says he'll fix whatever problems they care about, unless they're stupid enough to just see a political party and vote for it, and the external issues tend to be ignored in favor of things that actually matter to that person's existence.

And yes, it DOES matter if the people don't care.  Because that's what helps illustrate the fact that the government is doing this without millions of people calling for action.

The problem with the world, especially the part where idiotic self-detonation is seen as actually making a difference, is that they are simply not smart enough to separate the US government from the US population.  "Oh, it's all America, it should all die".  They see the government doing something and naturally assume that this means every single person with a US passport is actively calling for it to happen.  Simply not true.  Hell, even the active voting population is a small percentage of all Americans.  A little more than half of them get to decide who's in charge.  Saying "you aren't stopping it so it's your fault"...that's not even a logical response.  For one, I didn't vote for the guy, so I did my part there.  Publicly when asked I don't support the idea, so there's that.  So what else am I actually expected to do?  I do have things called a job and other obligations, and am not in a position to subject myself to a political campaign, so should I be plotting to redirect JDAMs into important structures at the expense of my own financial well-being or job? (bet I'm on the NSA list NOW  )  I'd get arrested, and the government would do what it wants to do anyway.  Get as mad as you want at the US government.  A lot of us here do the same thing.  But understand that as a group of "mostly" law-abiding people we're not inclined to do dumbass things like detonate ourselves on the steps of the Capitol just to make a point.  Syria is not the US.  We're screwed up enough internally right now for Syria to not be a major part of any normal American's "give-a-crap" meter.  Most people just want to go to work, get paid, eat, and have someplace decent to live.  Which makes us more similar to people in other places than they often care to consider.  What the government does to screw things up (which, I will point out, it is doing while NOT fixing the things actually wrong HERE) way outside our borders is less of a concern because it has no impact on our daily existence.  I could explain what the real problem is with the mentality and intelligence (yeah, I said it) of a lot of the world and how it makes crap like this come about, but I'd likely get into way too much trouble   The OTHER major problem is that the West in general is being habitually retardified by things that are asinine.  If I really want to know what's going on elsewhere I have to get onto the internet.  The news here could give a crap less most of the time, as they'd rather report on various stupid stories that make anyone with half a brain wonder what the hell is wrong with this country.  And don't even get me started on our TV.  Comedies, stuff like that on network TV, that isn't the problem.  But putting fat kids onto pedestals on The Learning Channel is just flat-out ludicrous (and makes one severely wonder just what in the HELL we were actually fighting to retain).

Actually, you know what?  Maybe we do need to be reduced to a degree.  Let me know who's taking this on and we'll talk targets.  I'M JUST KIDDING NSA!

mack8 wrote:As for the brands you mention (comm and tech wise), especially in Western Europe there is simply no other option, because the corrupt and vassal GOVERNMENTS here won't allow or support for instance  an european internet system, with servers HERE , totally independent, or an independent banking system, or  independent IT providers, because they are at YOUR government's and corporations service the cowards. Don't know about Russia, but China is definitely completely independent on that respect, kudos to them for not bowing to anyone.

Now I know that isn't entirely accurate.  Think about the simpler things like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, or an iPod.  There are local alternatives to them all.  At that point it's on the people of those nations to put people into power that will simply not allow foreign infiltration of their markets to this degree.  Hell, I can even buy different brands of soda, or a non-Apple mp3 player here, or go to a local burger shack for food.

mack8 wrote:(please don't start with usual propagandistic "chicoms" human rights Tibet crap, they are the most advanced successful communist country ever, primarily because the people BELIEVES in what they are trying to build and achieve, despite past hardships).

China can do what it wants to out west as far as I'm concerned, just like Syria now and Georgia in 1991-2, but who'd ever admit that they have every right to assess and deal with their internal situation as they see fit, without external "assistance".  If China invaded Nepal, or Syria invaded Jordan, then the situation would be different as now you're making big boy mistakes.  But if it stays internal, it's an internal problem and should be handled internally.  Felt the same way about Yugoslavia, too.

mack8 wrote:As for Syria, unfortunately, while the UK surprisingly blocked (my respect to all the MPs who voted against war) that servile PM from involving this country in yet another american military adventure (so far), even if the US won't attack Syria shortly, they and their ME stooges will probably increase the weapons and jihadist manpower supply to the motley collection of "insurgent" groups in Syria, so there's more suffering and destruction for the syrians ahead. You can't make this s**t up they are supporting and arming the very same jihadism and extremist islamism that they started this "war on terror" against. One can wish these criminals and their stooges will end up in a new Nuremberg trial.

The fact that the US would end up as a de-facto supporter of Al Qaeda is what I find so ridiculous about the whole thing these days.  I mean, seriously?  Then you get Kerry saying that "chemical weapons are illegal"...except Syria didn't sign that agreement, or that "it's in our national security interests"...except that the people you keep saying are bad are the one's we'd be supporting!  Besides, how the HELL is anything Syria does at present any impact on our national security?  At least when they bring up Iran they tell stories about Iranian nuclear ICBMs!

connect2raza wrote:IF SYRIA FALLS ISRAEL WILL...

This is funny.  Maybe reality is finally settling in among the not-so-smart bombs?  Now, I'm no supporter of Israel either, not by a long shot, but this is absolutely hilarious because now instead of talking about WE'RE GONNA BLOW UP THE FSA AND THEN ISRAEL it's WE NEED TO STOP ISRAEL AND THEN GO ABOUT OUR BUSINESS.  Remind me of how many times people have tried and FAILED to eliminate Israel, and maybe people are starting to recognize that the Israeli's, regardless of what thinks of them, have a propensity for beating their asses.  Even with a bigger army and with Israel lacking the significant technological edge it'd have now, people still FAILED.  A LOT.  

Also, maybe this is the downside to a non-US corporation created PC:  comes in permanent caps lock mode!

connect2raza wrote:AMERICAN ISRAELI TURKISH SAUDI ND IRANIAN GAME PLAN IS 2 DESTABLISE ALL ISLAMIC COUNTRIES

Seriously?  Turkey, Saudi, and Iran are going to destabilize themselves?

Mindstorm wrote:Those four little pages of pure NOTHING produced by US DoD are a true offense to the intelligence of humankind

...and, hilariously, also manage to basically prove that the US would be helping to topple a sovereign regime.

Syria payed almost 2 billion usd to Kremlin in 2013.
Even after complete destruction , Syrian finances are growing..  

FROM WHERE DID SYRIA GET THIS MONEY..!  

Syria Russia Arms payments

President Assad is reportedly settling his bills for Russian arms orders through that country’s banking system to try to shore up ties with his
most powerful ally. The payments, which have increased in recent months, show how Assad has sustained his ties with his main diplomatic
defender. The relationship has deepened in recent months. Although it was not possible to say for certain if they are bringing weapons,
the number of ships travelling to Syria from a Ukrainian port used by Russia’s arms export monopoly has increased since April.

A Russian defence industry source said Assad had started in recent months paying off a nearly $1bn contract for
four S-300 anti-aircraft missile systems and another $550m order for 36 Yak-130 trainer fighter planes.

Another Russian source with links to two Moscow-based members of the Syrian opposition said the Assad family’s financial affairs in
Russia have been looked after by the President’s uncle Mohammad Makhlouf, from a hotel room in Moscow. “That’s where Makhlouf meets
with those bringing money in. He is looking after all the operations, making sure everything goes according to plan,”
said a Syrian opposition member in Moscow.

gaurav wrote:Syria payed almost 2 billion usd to Kremlin in 2013.
Even after complete destruction , Syrian finances are growing..

FROM WHERE DID SYRIA GET THIS MONEY..!

Syria Russia Arms payments

President Assad is reportedly settling his bills for Russian arms orders through that country’s banking system to try to shore up ties with his
most powerful ally. The payments, which have increased in recent months, show how Assad has sustained his ties with his main diplomatic
defender. The relationship has deepened in recent months. Although it was not possible to say for certain if they are bringing weapons,
the number of ships travelling to Syria from a Ukrainian port used by Russia’s arms export monopoly has increased since April.

A Russian defence industry source said Assad had started in recent months paying off a nearly $1bn contract for
four S-300 anti-aircraft missile systems and another $550m order for 36 Yak-130 trainer fighter planes.

Another Russian source with links to two Moscow-based members of the Syrian opposition said the Assad family’s financial affairs in
Russia have been looked after by the President’s uncle Mohammad Makhlouf, from a hotel room in Moscow. “That’s where Makhlouf meets
with those bringing money in. He is looking after all the operations, making sure everything goes according to plan,”
said a Syrian opposition member in Moscow.

Very good news. Atleast Russia is getting some profit while US will spend it's money away. If they topple Assad an put another puppet in power Russians will eventually sell equipment like they do to Iraq and Afghanistan. For Us taxpayers money:)

also manage to basically prove that the US would be helping to topple a sovereign regime

SOC i image that you are perfectly aware that , if this kind of mindset should begin to appear even only acceptable for the settlement of International disputes, we would see in future other nations or blocks of nations try to resolve in the same UNLAWFUL , VIOLENT and totally ARBITRARY way the "problem" represented by France, South Africa, Russia, Japan, USA, Australia, China, Israel, India, Brasil or any other nation at world, only spelling a ,totally arbitrary, derogatory term for one of those nations ( ex : "sovereign bloodthirsty nation", "sovereign crypto-despotic democracy", "sovereign imperialist republic" and so on....) using as "casus belli" to attack it ,against the most elementary International Laws, totally invented allegations supported by........four little pages of total void.


It not seem to me that the Founding Fathers of the United States of America and the main promoters of the Universal Principles behind its Constitutional Chart would find a similar lurid behavior worthy of theirs blood and theirs sacrifice.

The same mean behavior mantained today by USA in its foreign politics, if changed of "spin" and operated by another nation in the opposite direction, would conduct to the distruption and disintegration of the USA for effect of an arbitrary and unlawful foreign aggression by part of a block of enemies nations and theirs unsubstantiated charges.

AlfaT8 wrote:Fully agreed, although i still wonder why Russia didn't publicize there report on March attack back in July.

Oh, it's 'their', and they don't have to publish anything yet, since they're not rushing into any sort of military action against another country. That's the whole point of evidence - you present it before a court, you do NOT fabricate it to justify attacking another sovereign nation.

USA and France must significantly shorten the time for theirs programmed  ILLEGAL  attack to Syria ,including the disgusting PR campaign in those same hours using the horrible death suffered by innocent Syrians for.....effect of the gas used by the terrorists rebels that theirs attack will attempt to save from the defeat, only to gain US's public opinion support ,  because appear that THRUTH climb up again much faster than what those criminal liars had planned (at least faster than what happened with false allegations on Iraqi WMDs)  :

mack8, SOC; you people are funny  

The reason why the US & Europe wants to invade Syria is simple . Europe wants to reduce it's dependency on RUSSIA for gas . Some 1.3 trillion Cubic meters of gas has been discovered offshore in Syria . Qatar is keen to build a Gas pipeline via Syria to supply Turkey and Europe.So, they plan to use Sunnis and ALQ to overthrow Assad.All this talk of Chemical weapons are a bunch of packaged LIES , so reminiscent of the intelligence about nuclear weapons that led to the invasion of Iraq.

So you thnk we should remain dependent on Russia? Hmm...

As Sa'iqa wrote:So you thnk we should remain dependent on Russia? Hmm...

That's not what I said . I was explaining ground realities .

Countries like Qatar , Saudi Arabia , Turkey are not all that scrupulous either .

On whom you will remain dependent or should you remain dependent at all is your call .

As Sa'iqa wrote:So you thnk we should remain dependent on Russia? Hmm...

Yes. Yes you should  

Or rather, be as independent as you want, but quit NATO and start practicing an independent foreign policy in line with your energy independence too; not just barking on signal at Russia whenever Brussels or Washington start pushing the buttons.

We don't need to be independent. North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe etc. are all "independent" and everyone knows what they look like.

In fact, Russia has been the main archenemy of Poland since at least 16th century, there is a conflict of interest between Russia and Poland but not between Poland and Arab states.

As Sa'iqa wrote:We don't need to be independent. North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe etc. are all "independent" and everyone knows what they look like.

In fact, Russia has been the main archenemy of Poland since at least 16th century, there is a conflict of interest between Russia and Poland but not between Poland and Arab states.

There is absolutely no conflict of interest between Russia and Poland in anything at all.

It's all in Poland's head.

During the collapse of socialist rule in Eastern Europe; i.e. from 1989 onwards, the Soviet Union and later the Russian Federation were very much hoping to maintain friendly relations with their now former satellite states in Eastern Europe.
Russia did not need any enemies.
But unfortunately these new countries did; despite the fact that the communists in Russia were overthrown a scant 2 years after they were forced from power in Eastern Europe.

In fact during the Cold War era Poland and Russia were allies; political, economical and military. Of course Poland's government took orders from Moscow, and the communists in Warsaw were reliant on the USSR for economic support (initially they were tolerated by their own people), and then from the 80s onwards they were on the verge of needing even military support from the Soviets to prevent them from being overthrown.

That being said; taking orders or not - they still co-existed, Poland has autonomy and limited independence to with as it wished, yet these countries still had no areas of conflicts between them. Poland did not desire or need influence in USSR republics such as Belarus and the Ukraine.
Poland did however have conflicts with NATO and Western Europe - because they had an opposite ideology and because Poland was told to be their enemy by the USSR.
Nowadays Poland takes orders from Washington, its leaders look to the EU for ideology and it receives economic support from there too (Poland is the biggest recipient of EU aid AFAIK). True, its government is more successful and has broader support of its people, it's economy is more dynamic, and it has more autonomy in its domestic & foreign policies; but fundamentally the same rules apply as they did in the Cold War.
Poland's foreign policy is once again kept on a leash.
It views Russia as its enemy because once again, it has an opposing ideology (or so it claims), and because Washington tells it to look for problems.

History, and all that BS since the 16th century has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's of no relevance whatsoever; other than the fact that it's used to justify Poland's current foreign policy towards Russia (which in actuality is dictated by Washington not by history).
Today's reality is completely different and has nothing in common with the early 1600s, division of Poland at the end of 18th century, the Polish-Bolshevik war in 1919-1920 and so on; just like Germany today has nothing in common with Nazi Germany 70 years ago.

Poland does not actually need to support anti-Russian forces in Belarus or the Ukraine, or the Baltics or the wider world. It gains practically nothing from it. But it does it anyway because the EU and America encourage it to.
Belarus isn't going anywhere, while even if Poland gains some influence in the Ukraine - it's worthless as the Ukraine is becoming a wreck of a country; particularly in the West which is the most pro-Western part.
What's more, the very same people in the Ukraine who are anti-Russian are traditionally anti-Polish too; responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Poles all over Western Ukraine in WW2. In Lithuania it's a similar story; supporting the local nationalists against Russia is a double-edged sword, because indeed nationalist Lithuanians have even more of a bone to pick with Poland than they do with Russia.

All that Poland succeeds in doing with all this is pissing off Russia. And once it does that; it loses economic opportunities, it loses the possibility of military co-operation and arms purchases (although actually Poland is mostly just refusing this itself) and it creates the situation where rather than having a simple buyer-seller relationship with Russia in the sphere of energy - it all becomes politicized; thus it then has to invest money instead into more expensive & risky solutions such as LNG terminals and fracking.
And also invest money into an expensive missile shield like it's doing now; which won't work anyway as Washington will not give this second-echelon NATO state; potentially full of Russian spies and subject to Russian influence - it's latest missile technology; and Russia's tech will advance even further by the time Poland does introduce some limited anti-ABM capability against obsolete IRBMs.

Poland can very easily be independent. It just needs to get rid of some of the jackals that Brussels and Washington keep in its government (such as that Bullingdon club elitist Sikorsky and his Russophobe mistress Anne Applebaum), diversify its economic/political relations with Russia and China (hopefully gaining a good deal on gas & oil supplies), while remaining in the EU and just generally laying out the terms for its continued participation in the Western project; rather than the other way 'round.
Hungary's Viktor Orban is showing how it's done. And Poland is in a stronger position to pull it off than Hungary is.
That way it can be more like France or Germany and less like some puppet state in Eastern Europe that follows whatever orders are given to it to the letter.
After that it can slowly wind-down on its commitments in NATO and start to move to neutrality; like Finland - a country with 1/8th of Poland's population that somehow seems to be managing it.
Once it does that, it can vote whatever way it wishes in the UN; hopefully for peace and justice and Russia

So you thnk we should remain dependent on Russia? Hmm...

That is what I hate about westerners.

When was the last time Russia blackmailed Europe over gas supplies?

Russia was blackmailed by the Ukraine who stole gas that was going to Europe, which Russia dealt with and is providing alternative routes to ensure it does not happen again... in other words they are spending trillions of dollars to ensure a stable supply of gas to Europe.

Now with all the things that have happened... NATO attacking Serbia, invading Kosovo, taking Russian nationals prisoner and illegally having them kidnapped from Thailand etc etc etc how many times has Russia said do what we want or we will stop the gas supply?

Never? Correct. Never.

Such a gas supply is called reliable and stable and therefore is not actually a problem but clearly Europe does not like fair trade purchasing gas from a country it clearly despises so it is calling the situation a dependency and is trying to change it... I would think having a gas pipeline going through a war torn country like Syria will be for the next 20 years if Assad is overthrown is just asking for an unreliable link to the chain.

The real reason the west is afraid of depending on Russia is that they know that one day they know that Russia will wake up and realise the west is full of sht and its lies about rights and peace and democracy and friendship are all fairy tales and it is actually all about oil and gas and cheap energy.

When Russia wakes up it might start treating the west the way the west has treated the rest of the world... like an interest.

History, and all that BS since the 16th century has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's of no relevance whatsoever; other than the fact that it's used to justify Poland's current foreign policy towards Russia (which in actuality is dictated by Washington not by history).

If you want to talk about differences between countries in history NATO would collapse... which NATO countries have not fought any of the other countries?

The UK vs the US in the war of independence, the UK vs France, everyone against the Germans twice, etc etc... Europes history has been war, and if you keep your head buried in the sand then that is not really likely to change.

The purpose of studying history is not to find the winners or losers, but to look at the mistakes and maybe not make them again.

Once it does that, it can vote whatever way it wishes in the UN; hopefully for peace and justice and Russia

It is a little country mentality... I see it here in New Zealand. Most New Zealanders seem to think we can't be independent and that we have to suck up to Australia or the US or Britain... who all tell us to be afraid of China and to not like Russia.

Personally I would want to have good relations with all countries and try to make sure all other countries respect us and don't just use us as another vote in the UN, or a handy stepping stone to Antarctica or whatever.

I call it cocacola syndrome however... most countries have their own fizzy drink brands... well they do till coca cola comes in and buys up all the bottling plants. They start with the small corner stores as their local product range expands they demand their products get pride of place or they wont let you sell their product. Eventually they take over... they are like a virus.

The Soviet Union was the same... as was the west. They want as many friendly pieces on the board as they can get, but the other guy wants the same and because of their rivalry and the politics they are pushing are quite different small countries basically had to make a choice. White western small countries went with the west... or white colonised countries where whites were the vast majority like NZ and Australia or had secure control of power like South Africa picked the west. Poorer countries half colonised by the west had a choice like Cuba and Vietnam and many others in central and south america and africa, while countries within military blocks like eastern europe didn't get a choice.

With the end of the cold war these released countries need a sponsor... they don't know how to do it on their own and jumped into whatever bed they could see.

It was very much a small child running from the skirt of one protector to the skirt of another without looking up very much... they just knew they were safe under a skirt...

Well to have Russia as sole energy supplier could cost you arm and leg. Gazprom is known to use political channels to pressure You. It's happening right now - our trucks and even light cars are not being let to enter Russia for days. Reason for that is our pro Russian government was trying to get agreement on gas prices. What happens next is that our trade will be more focused towards west and we are actively seeking diversity in energy suppliers. Gazprom will be sued for it's practices and hopefully we will win a fair reduction. I don't want American companies comming to my country and digging for shale gas, but now same government refused this proposal now is lighting a green light.