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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10

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    Post  Guest Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:28 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Still puts into question of Mikoyans lack of quality. They always seem to have an issue of some sort, with their new jets. And they also have had returns from Algeria due to poor quality compared to Sukhoi.

    Sucks but oh well. Signs that maybe MiG-35 may not be a good buy till Sokol plant and Mikoyan can get their crap together.

    Actually Algeria was protesting due to fact MiG concern used some already produced parts that they had stockpiled from 90s that were kept in storages. Algeria claimed they were mislead and expected all the parts to be brand new.
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    Post  par far Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:29 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Still puts into question of Mikoyans lack of quality. They always seem to have an issue of some sort, with their new jets. And they also have had returns from Algeria due to poor quality compared to Sukhoi.

    Sucks but oh well. Signs that maybe MiG-35 may not be a good buy till Sokol plant and Mikoyan can get their crap together.


    This true and worrisome, hopefully all of Mig plants and Mig is put under investigation.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:35 pm

    Mikoyan only has 1 plant for aircrafts and it is Sokol. They own it now since last year or this year. Mikoyan products are nice and quite advanced, but seem to suffer from some kind of technical failures, specifically with the fly-by-wire and its connection to the engines.

    An investigation won't do anything. New management is needed and maybe be controlled by Rostec instead.
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    Post  par far Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:43 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Mikoyan only has 1 plant for aircrafts and it is Sokol. They own it now since last year or this year. Mikoyan products are nice and quite advanced, but seem to suffer from some kind of technical failures, specifically with the fly-by-wire and its connection to the engines.

    An investigation won't do anything. New management is needed and maybe be controlled by Rostec instead.





    Than get new people or someone else to control it, it has huge potential that is not yet reached.
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    Post  Guest Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:47 pm

    We still do not know what caused the crash, chill people. It might be pilot mistake, ship crew mistake, malfunction, sea state... Lets wait abit first before throwing stones.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:55 pm

    It was technical failure. https://www.rt.com/news/366911-russian-mig-crashes-mediterranean/

    So it has something to do with the plane itself.

    I am not worried about anything other than this hurting overall Mikoyans image and potential future sales. It has been a company under a lot of financial constraint for a long time, so that can take a toll on the company as a whole. Rostec has a good history of turning companies around and making quality stuff. So maybe this can work for Mikoyan as well.
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    Post  TheArmenian Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:49 pm

    Militarov wrote:We still do not know what caused the crash, chill people. It might be pilot mistake, ship crew mistake, malfunction, sea state... Lets wait abit first before throwing stones.

    You are ruining the parade of the drama-queens who look for opportunities to whine, bitch, complain, blame, throw rocks ...
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    Post  Guest Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:53 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Militarov wrote:We still do not know what caused the crash, chill people. It might be pilot mistake, ship crew mistake, malfunction, sea state... Lets wait abit first before throwing stones.

    You are ruining the parade of the drama-queens who look for opportunities to whine, bitch, complain, blame, throw rocks ...

    Basically ye. However even if it was malfunction its very important to know what kind of malfunction it was. Its not the same if landing gear refused to drop and if both engines stalled.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:57 pm

    Apparently more common than I thought regarding carrier aircrafts. Sucks it happened but glad pilot is A O K. Wonder what now though. Bring in another MiG-29K?
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    Post  zg18 Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:50 pm

    Syrian sources said MiG-31 was deployed in Hmeym AB

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 25 CxP9PqkXEAAXF1c

    R-33 AA missile

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 25 CxQCmbAXgAAES54

    MiG-31 landing

    Nothing official yet.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:....................

    I am not worried about anything other than this hurting overall Mikoyans image and potential future sales. It has been a company under a lot of financial constraint for a long time, so that can take a toll on the company as a whole. Rostec has a good history of turning companies around and making quality stuff. So maybe this can work for Mikoyan as well.

    Well they should focus on new products then. MiG-29 is widespread so reputation from that angle is pretty much set in stone.



    zg18 wrote:Syrian sources said MiG-31 was deployed in Hmeym AB

    ...................


    Awesome, but what the hell would they need those things for? Are they going after someone's strategic bombers? Suspect
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    Post  headshot69 Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:03 pm

    ...if you sum all assets russian have collected around Syria...it is over...one big splash to erase IS from Syria territory...without US presence...all third party threats suppressed...from sea, air, ground....whatever....very smart move :-)
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    Post  George1 Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:05 pm

    zg18 wrote:Syrian sources said MiG-31 was deployed in Hmeym AB

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 25 CxP9PqkXEAAXF1c

    R-33 AA missile

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 25 CxQCmbAXgAAES54

    MiG-31 landing

    Nothing official yet.

    interesting. But with what purpose? MiG-31BM is to take AWACS and strategic bombers
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    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:07 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:....................

    I am not worried about anything other than this hurting overall Mikoyans image and potential future sales. It has been a company under a lot of financial constraint for a long time, so that can take a toll on the company as a whole. Rostec has a good history of turning companies around and making quality stuff. So maybe this can work for Mikoyan as well.

    Well they should focus on new products then. MiG-29 is widespread so reputation from that angle is pretty much set in stone.  



    zg18 wrote:Syrian sources said MiG-31 was deployed in Hmeym AB

    ...................


    Awesome, but what the hell would they need those things for? Are they going after someone's strategic bombers?  Suspect

    maybe they just want to showcase it seems like they have just about covered everything else although the Mig-29 debute erm wasn't so good. But theres time to make up for it. I am surprised Mig-29SMT weren't deployed in Syria ages ago. going back to the Mig-31 if indeed it is present, the BM variants are capable of dropping guided munitions but there is other aircraft just as capable for the role already there, i suspect they will be used for recce and escorting the bombers when they arrive in Syrian airspace, and maybe the occasional bombing if other aircraft are tied up. I am surprised we haven't seen Su-30 and Su-35 doing a few bombing runs for battle testing air to ground munitions. Mig-31 can carry approx 8-9,000kg, of various munitions including Kh series or eight KAB-500 or six precision bombs KAB-1500 not bad really.
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    Post  medo Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:54 pm

    I'm really surprized, if MiG-31BM is actually in Syria. MiG-31BM is still air defense interceptor with no capabilities against ground targets. Only MiG-31BM prototype have SEAD/DEAD capailities, but serial ones are interceptors only. MiG-31BM could not bring any capability, which Su-30SM and Su-35 doesn't have there already. Su-35 have more capable radar and Su-30SM could as well work as small AWACS with its WSO in back seat, like MiG-31BM could. Maybe they will just test networking between those three types of fighters in real combat zone covering Syrian air space. They could as well test real coordination work between MiG-31BM and Su-33, which will work in combination protecting Russian arctic region. I see no other reason for MiG-31BM to be in Syria.
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    Post  Guest Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:06 am

    medo wrote:I'm really surprized, if MiG-31BM is actually in Syria. MiG-31BM is still air defense interceptor with no capabilities against ground targets. Only MiG-31BM prototype have SEAD/DEAD capailities, but serial ones are interceptors only. MiG-31BM could not bring any capability, which Su-30SM and Su-35 doesn't have there already. Su-35 have more capable radar and Su-30SM could as well work as small AWACS with its WSO in back seat, like MiG-31BM could. Maybe they will just test networking between those three types of fighters in real combat zone covering Syrian air space. They could as well test real coordination work between MiG-31BM and Su-33, which will work in combination protecting Russian arctic region. I see no other reason for MiG-31BM to be in Syria.

    Better late than never delivery to the Syrians? O.o
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:53 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:

    maybe they just want to showcase it seems like they have just about covered everything else although the Mig-29 debute erm wasn't so good. But theres time to make up for it. I am surprised Mig-29SMT weren't deployed in Syria ages ago. going back to the Mig-31 if indeed it is present, the BM variants are capable of dropping guided munitions but there is other aircraft just as capable for the role already there, i suspect they will be used for recce and escorting the bombers when they arrive in Syrian airspace, and maybe the occasional bombing if other aircraft are tied up. I am surprised we haven't seen Su-30 and Su-35 doing a few bombing runs for battle testing air to ground munitions. Mig-31 can carry approx 8-9,000kg, of various munitions including Kh series or eight KAB-500 or six precision bombs KAB-1500 not bad really.


    bombing with R-33 stockpiled on nex pic? unlikely but Borya Johnson will think twice if he thinks of course Smile
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    Post  eehnie Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:00 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:To focus well the answer to which warfare can come to Syria from their allies (without count Russia, Iran has a key role) and the black markets in the continental Asia, The money is a key factor. Everyone with a minimun knowledge knows the specifications of every piece of warfare. More the current owners. Then obviously, the most useful warfare will have higher price than less effective warfare, but still useful (when the other option is to use civil vehicles or to use only portable/man portable weapons). The higher prize of the most useful warfare is justified because of the lower incentive of the current owners to sale them.

    The money is a bareer to see better warfare in Syria, and the lowest technological level has a welcome in this war. To provide material for large military forces in war is not easy and cheap, and even $5K by unit of T-55 ($1M by 200 without ammunition) can become too much in adition to other needs of ammunition and material. Syria today is not in position of selecting material, Syria depends of the external gifts/aid and of cheapest material available of Russian design, that for sure has been receiving it the last years (the numbers for the evolution of the equipment of their Armed Forces suggest it). Today Syria must fight adapting themselves to what they have available, and to what the current owners of these weapons want to sale.

    To remember the list including the MiG-19 and the ASU-85:

    This is is what I would expect to be supplied to Syria from third countries by their suppliers. It would be available at low price.

    Heavy Towed Weapons:

    160mm M-43
    160mm M-160
    085mm D-48
    085mm D-44
    SA-5
    SA-2
    SA-3
    057mm S-60
    076mm ZIS-3
    023mm ZU-23-2 (also from Russia)
    130mm M-46
    122mm D-74
    122mm M-30
    082mm Vasilek (also from Russia)
    152mm ML-20
    152mm D-1
    152mm D-20

    Mobile Land Warfare:

    100mm SU-100
    240mm BM-240
    T-34
    BTR-40
    BTR-152
    PT-76
    BTR-50
    SA-9
    ASU-85

    Air Warfare:

    Il-28 (H-5)
    MiG-15 (FT-2)
    MiG-17 (FT-5)
    Tu-16 (H-6)
    MiG-19 (J-6, F-6, Q-5, A-5, FT-6,...)

    To have more modern warfare retired by Russia like Su-7, FROG-7, T-54, T-62, T-55, MiG-21, T-64 or to have warfare present in the Russian Armed Forces, surely Syria would need to pay significantly more.

    From what I see in the public data, the number of units of the warfare cited in the box, available in the continental Asia (except Russia), is not big today, In most of the cases less than three hundreds.

    In the refered to Russia, I think Syria did some contracts that finished its purchasing capability. Today the relation would be more about external aid, than about purchases of warfare. In this context, we can understand the direct military operation, and also the transfers of material that we can expect today. To remind it:

    This is what I would expect to see moved to Syria from the Russian Armed Forces:

    023mm 1960 ZU-23-2 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian Armed Forces).
    082mm 1970 Vasilek (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian Armed Forces).
    Iveco LMV (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian Armed Forces. Surely continue present in other non-military Russian security forces).

    152mm 1975 Giatsint-B
    120mm 1986 Nona-K
    122mm 1960 D-30
    100mm 1961 (M)T-12
    152mm 1987 Msta-B

    Su-25
    BM-21

    And this is what I would expect to see moved to Syria from other Russian security forces:

    BPM-97
    Vodnik

    122mm 1960 D-30 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian security forces).

    MI-24/25/35 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian security forces).
    Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian security forces).

    The main reasons to include the Su-25 and the helicopters would be that Russia may want to tranfer to Syria the riskiest operations of air support and the transfer of this warfare would have very low affect in the capabilities of the Russian Aerospace Forces (the helicopters even are not part of their warfare).

    The Su-25, Mi-24/25/35, Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 are all still very much needed in the Russian armed forces and upgrades are still happening, in fact Mi-24/35 orders are still being placed, and Su-25 are being upgraded to SM/SM3 levels, the Ka series are having upgrades. Also i think some of the equipment you have been talking about in your last few posts are far to gone to be economically viable to put back into service and some of the aircraft would be unsafe to fly. Also some of the older stuff's ammo hasn't been in production for some time and ammo reliability greatly reduces over time and the conditions of its storage. Like others have stated Syria needs equipment they need little to no training on and with ammo thats current. Also things like Frog 3/5/7 are far too inaccurate to use in this conflict due to the number of civilians in rebel areas, the media and the west would love to have an excuse to attack Assad if suddenly a Frog-7 lands on a crowded civilian area killing 100's of civilians. Hence Tochka have only been used and not many recently. Right now the SAA need two things ammo and manpower but the second option is non-existant. I think if the terrorists lose USA backing and supplies this could really change the game in even more favour for the SAA and we could see a quicker collapse.

    If you see well the comment, you will see how the effect of the transfer for the Russian Aerospace Forces would be minimal. The helicopters mentioned are not from the Russian Aerospace Forces, but from other security forces that own them. The transfer would not touch thte strength of the Russian Aerospace forces. In the case of the Su-25, the aircrafts are owned by the Russian Aerospace forces but seems quite useful for the conditions of this war, with very low density of manpads in the side of the Syrian opposition. Some conditions that surely will not be in future conflicts where Russia can be involved. The transfer of around 24 units wold have small impact taking into account that Russia has around 200 of them.

    Today the close air support are the riskiest operations that Russia is doing in Syria, and where Russia is losing more soldiers despite to have some luck like in the last helicopter rescue. I do not think Russia will continue doing this operations permanently, but to transfer the operations to the Syrian Air Forces, Russia would also need to transfer the material to do them.

    Also, at same time, there is some warfare that I do not think is really needed for the work of the security forces of Russia (basically the helicopters of combat models and the artillery of 122mm) and that I tend to think that will be used exclusively by the Russian Armed Forces and the few units present in the Russian security forces will not remain in their inventories. Likely the future procurement of helicopters for the Russian security forces can be solved with Mi-38, Ka-60/62, Mi-Ansat, Ka-226, Mi-26/27 and Mi8/9... (its variants).

    It is necessary to note that we may not dissagree on some of the technical comments, but while your comment is more focused in what Syria needs, my comment is more focused in what Syrian can obtain to keep their big amounts of soldiers equiped with something else than civil trucks and portable/man-portable weapons. As example I agree with your comment about the FROG-7, but at same time I'm sure that Syria would like to have more of them. And also Syria would not reject to have some FROG-3/5, but like in the case of the BS-3, this weapon seems not available in the continental Asia at this point.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:45 am

    MiG-31BM could not bring any capability, which Su-30SM and Su-35 doesn't have there already. Su-35 have more capable radar and Su-30SM could as well work as small AWACS with its WSO in back seat, like MiG-31BM could


    Apart from the obvious... the MiG-31BM can fly at mach 2.6 for up to 20 minutes or Mach 2.4 for the entire mission and can carry RVV-BD missiles with a flight range of about 300km.

    Speed and missile range are important in an interceptor...

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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:11 am

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Still puts into question of Mikoyans lack of quality. They always seem to have an issue of some sort, with their new jets. And they also have had returns from Algeria due to poor quality compared to Sukhoi.

    Sucks but oh well. Signs that maybe MiG-35 may not be a good buy till Sokol plant and Mikoyan can get their crap together.

    Actually Algeria was protesting due to fact MiG concern used some already produced parts that they had stockpiled from 90s that were kept in storages. Algeria claimed they were mislead and expected all the parts to be brand new.

    Algeria wanted a switch deal too, it's a lot more complex than simply MiG being asses. But MiG gave them a convenient excuse to walk off the deal and have SU's instead.

    Btw Brand spanking new F-35 caught fire while landing less than a week ago. I'm sure this F-35 gig should bring shame on Boeing...oh wait. Let's stop this non-sense.
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    Post  Guest Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:05 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Still puts into question of Mikoyans lack of quality. They always seem to have an issue of some sort, with their new jets. And they also have had returns from Algeria due to poor quality compared to Sukhoi.

    Sucks but oh well. Signs that maybe MiG-35 may not be a good buy till Sokol plant and Mikoyan can get their crap together.

    Actually Algeria was protesting due to fact MiG concern used some already produced parts that they had stockpiled from 90s that were kept in storages. Algeria claimed they were mislead and expected all the parts to be brand new.

    Algeria wanted a switch deal too, it's a lot more complex than simply MiG being asses. But MiG gave them a convenient excuse to walk off the deal and have SU's instead.

    Btw Brand spanking new F-35 caught fire while landing less than a week ago. I'm sure this F-35 gig should bring shame on Boeing...oh wait. Let's stop this non-sense.

    Noone cares if that happens to BAE, Boeing or Lockeed Martin really. Sales are there, their lobying power is beyond imagination, maintenance support they offer is immense, spares inflow is also spectacular. MiG is struggling to deliver even spares to old MiG-29 operators. Boeing however faced big issues when B737s had major accidents, as sales dropped and many operators tried switching to Airbus, that is how it is.

    And its abit different as F-35 is in IOC, MiG-29K is allegedly service ready for 3-4 years already now, and the damn thing caught fire, was flushed and repaired onboard the ship. I wouldnt say a word if it was brand new design crashing on flight tests... but its not really new design and it crashed before even ever seeing any combat, and you can count all of them on your fingers.
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    Post  medo Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    MiG-31BM could not bring any capability, which Su-30SM and Su-35 doesn't have there already. Su-35 have more capable radar and Su-30SM could as well work as small AWACS with its WSO in back seat, like MiG-31BM could


    Apart from the obvious... the MiG-31BM can fly at mach 2.6 for up to 20 minutes or Mach 2.4 for the entire mission and can carry RVV-BD missiles with a flight range of about 300km.

    Speed and missile range are important in an interceptor...


    Su-35 could carry RVV-BD as well and can supercruise.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:14 pm


    Well finally:

    Russia's Admiral Kuznetsov Aircraft Carrier Begins Combat Operations in Syria

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201611151047453340-admiral-kuznetsov-syria/


    Russian Admiral Grigorovich Frigate Targets Terrorists in Syria With Missiles

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201611151047453617-frigate-syria-missiles/


    Seven Russian S-300 Air Missile Defense Systems Deployed in Syria

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201611151047455462-s-300-syria-russia/
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:59 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Still puts into question of Mikoyans lack of quality. They always seem to have an issue of some sort, with their new jets. And they also have had returns from Algeria due to poor quality compared to Sukhoi.

    Sucks but oh well. Signs that maybe MiG-35 may not be a good buy till Sokol plant and Mikoyan can get their crap together.

    Actually Algeria was protesting due to fact MiG concern used some already produced parts that they had stockpiled from 90s that were kept in storages. Algeria claimed they were mislead and expected all the parts to be brand new.

    Algeria wanted a switch deal too, it's a lot more complex than simply MiG being asses. But MiG gave them a convenient excuse to walk off the deal and have SU's instead.

    Btw Brand spanking new F-35 caught fire while landing less than a week ago. I'm sure this F-35 gig should bring shame on Boeing...oh wait. Let's stop this non-sense.

    Noone cares if that happens to BAE, Boeing or Lockeed Martin really. Sales are there, their lobying power is beyond imagination, maintenance support they offer is immense, spares inflow is also spectacular. MiG is struggling to deliver even spares to old MiG-29 operators. Boeing however faced big issues when B737s had major accidents, as sales dropped and many operators tried switching to Airbus, that is how it is.

    Mig has no issues issuing spares for the 29 fleet, that's an absolute myth. What is going on though is that MiG is wanting to get out of shitty underpriced contracts that they were forced to write, because they cannot sell anything anymore. This comes directly from the choice Russia made to basically kill the two manufacturer conglomerate back in the 1990's.

    Also the only thing that should have made RAC MiG some dough was shot down because most of the NATO operators are becoming former ones and they are bypassing MiG for parts. Last laugh was Poland offering Bulgaria a overhaul and maintenance deal while they don't have the IP to make anything regarding maintenance. Try that with Boeing.

    Mig is simply caught in a multilayered shitstorm that has nothing to do with them being suddenly the lesser gypsum, just the victims of a political choice, historical fallout and basically a savage market.

    Most of this has ironically to do with Mig Losing their entries at the MO when the USSR went down.

    If Kamov wasn't propped by their Chinese design contract, they would be in the same ditch, right now.



    And its abit different as F-35 is in IOC, MiG-29K is allegedly service ready for 3-4 years already now, and the damn thing caught fire, was flushed and repaired onboard the ship. I wouldnt say a word if it was brand new design crashing on flight tests... but its not really new design and it crashed before even ever seeing any combat, and you can count all of them on your fingers.
    The Mig29K is ready for service and one plane f*cked up (for reasons we don't know). The F35 is Green condition ready as well, and it has been for 10 years, yet it sporadically catches fire, bugs, lapses etc. Let's not start calling people names before having some perspective.



    JohninMK
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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10

    Post  JohninMK Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:01 pm

    Moments ago Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu announced that the Russian military launched a large-scale operation against terrorists stationed in Homs and Idlib provinces of Syria.

    "Today at 10:30 and 11:00 we launched a large-scale operation against the positions of Islamic State and Al-Nusra [terrorist groups] in the provinces of Idlib and Homs," Shoigu said at a meeting between Russian President Vladimir Putin and the top leadership of the Russian Armed Forces.

    The Russian "Admiral Grigorovich" frigate located next to Syria's coast targeted terrorists in Syria with Kalibr cruise missile strikes, Shoigu said. The "Admiral Grigorovich [frigate] takes part in the operation. Today, it launched Kalibr cruise missiles on [terrorist] targets that had been confirmed by intelligence data and determined in advance," the minister said at a meeting of Russian President Vladimir Putin with top officials of the Russian Armed Forces.

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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10 - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #10

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