Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

Austin wrote:Longish  Interview with   Roskosmos head Igor Komarov

BUSINESS FM. Igor Komarov: "WE TRANSLATE fight with the emergency on Earth"

https://www.roscosmos.ru/23730/



^^ He admits Space X is a threat Accordingly, Komarov outlined a strategy for how he believes Russia will compete with SpaceX over the next five years. For the short-term Russian space agency will be working to reduce production cost and over the next 5 years or so they will  finalize development of the Soyuz 5 rocket, a medium-lift vehicle in the same lift class as the Falcon 9 rocket. They estimate that SpaceX with its push towards reusable rockets will only be able to reduce costs by 15-20 percent which is the same as the expendable Soyuz 5 will do.

hahaha komarov is businessman , he has nothing to do with deceased komarov- astronaut , he replaced a great man as head of roscosmos , patriot , and engineer  - oleg ostapenko   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Ostapenko    , who himself said angara was a dead-end rocket in his interview to izvestia    

https://iz.ru/news/562792

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sr&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fiz.ru%2Fnews%2F562792&edit-text=



"I have been engaged in the Angara for a long time, since the beginning of my activity as the head of the cosmodrome, then the commander," Ostapenko said at the meeting. - Personally, my conviction that this rocket for the East is a deadend missile, it will not give us the opportunity to develop. We will then have to invest again a lot of money and build something else ... I believe that "Angara" is a dead-end solution for the subsequent development of our country in this area. Therefore, it is necessary to prepare a convincing program for reporting to the president, as it was easy and unpleasant, because they were convinced of another. But to spend money for nothing and wait for something, we will not, we need to take an active position.



and almost canceled it in 2013!!!

as i predicted now people are betting that spaceX will have more launches then whole roscosmoss this year!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEniP3PXkAARDSV.jpg

by the time they build sunkar, soyuz-5, phoenix , and what not , spaceX will be even more ahead. its a tragedy... because people wont listen wont admit they are wrong ,  and start insulting and denial.

Rmf wrote:..................

by the time they build sunkar, soyuz-5, phoenix , and what not , spaceX will be even more ahead. its a tragedy... because people wont listen wont admit they are wrong ,  and start insulting and denial.

No complaints here.

Roscosmos is state space agency, not a commercial company. Just like NASA.

Give engines to civilians and they can play around with commercial launches and SpaceX. If they get it done then give them contracts and tax them just like everyone else.

What matters is that Soyuz-5 and derivatives get built. If chasing subsidized SpaceX means they will get it done faster then no problemo.

Good thing will be done for wrong reason but who gives a fuck as long as it's done.

PapaDragon wrote:

What matters is that Soyuz-5 and derivatives get built. If chasing subsidized SpaceX means they will get it done faster then no problemo.

Good thing will be done for wrong reason but who gives a fuck as long as it's done.

Not really ...

None of those Soyuz new Rockets matter at all , is all for the continuation of the Lame
Taxi to the ISS and for private launches of satellites to Low earth Orbit. It will not advance
Russian space program at all beyond what they could do in 1970 , in 1971 Russia had
rovers in the moon.

and this is Unfortunate ,  ,that the Russian space program is at least a decade from now ,
on hold ,for anything beyond low earth orbit.   Putin is more interesting is Sports and
and wasting Russia budget in other foolish things ,than in becoming a leader in space.

Soyuz 5 role is to have it as an alternative to Angara 5 in case it fails.  But contrary
to Soyuz.. Angara program can be scaled to a super heavy rocket beyond 100 tons.
Like Angara 100. Soyuz 5 is only a small improvement to their previous projects.

The only exciting Projects today in space for future comes all from
NASA ,Space X and CHINA. that have plans for moon landing and orbit in very near future.

Vann7 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

What matters is that Soyuz-5 and derivatives get built. If chasing subsidized SpaceX means they will get it done faster then no problemo.

Good thing will be done for wrong reason but who gives a fuck as long as it's done.

Not really ...

None of those Soyuz new Rockets matter at all , is all for the continuation of the Lame
Taxi to the ISS and for private launches of satellites to Low earth Orbit. It will not advance
Russian space program at all beyond what they could do in 1970 , in 1971 Russia had
rovers in the moon.

and this is Unfortunate ,  ,that the Russian space program is at least a decade from now ,
on hold ,for anything beyond low earth orbit.   Putin is more interesting is Sports and
and wasting Russia budget in other foolish things ,than in becoming a leader in space.

Soyuz 5 role is to have it as an alternative to Angara 5 in case it fails.  But contrary
to Soyuz.. Angara program can be scaled to a super heavy rocket beyond 100 tons.
Like Angara 100. Soyuz 5 is only a small improvement to their previous projects.

The only exciting Projects today in space for future comes all from
NASA ,Space X and CHINA. that have plans for moon landing and orbit in very near future.

Soyuz-5​ is not the same thing as light Soyuz you illiterate moron.

Angara is light rocket that scales up to heavy launcher in 5 module configuration.

Soyuz-5 is medium rocket that scales up to super-heavy launcher in that same configuration.

They are so different that they will have to build completely new facilities at Vostochniy to operate Soyuz-5 while Angara is able to use standard Soyuz infrastructure. All they need to do is build Angara launchpad next to one for Soyuz.

Only thing Soyuz-5 has in common with standard Soyuz is name.

Also, standard reminder: Roskosmos is state space agency. SpaceX is private company. Remember that "tiny" distinction.

Russia to start manufacturing new medium-class carrier rocket (Soyuz-5)

http://tass.com/science/956734


Russia launches work to design new outfit for spacewalks

http://tass.com/science/956569


Russia to complete tests of new lightweight carrier rocket in 2018 (Soyuz 2.1v - single engine)

http://tass.com/science/956726

Papadragon wrote:Russia to start manufacturing new medium-class carrier rocket (Soyuz-5)

The medium class rocket to be built by Progress samara or Energia ..
I think they are taking the spec of energia .. but the rocket development is done by Progress samara .. is this the scenario or is it something else..?

gaurav wrote:

Papadragon wrote:Russia to start manufacturing new medium-class carrier rocket (Soyuz-5)

The medium class rocket to be built by Progress samara or Energia ..
I think they are taking the spec of energia .. but the rocket development is done by Progress samara .. is this the scenario or is it something else..?

Don't know exactly, only know what's in the English article (don't speak the Russian language).

But Soyuz-5 is only new rocket project on the table and they already said that it will be Energia spin-off which is definitely best approach.

My guess is that they will be putting both subsidiaries on the job in some capacity since this is priority project.

Article says it will be RD-171MV for first stage and RD-0124M for second.

kvs wrote:........
The base module of the new medium class uses RD-170 type four nozzle engines so the Soyuz 5 is going to be base off this class.    I suppose
for the heavy lifter they will just extend the length of the first stage module of the Soyuz 5 since two stage boosters is something I have never
seen before.   Anyway, it is great to see a full capability being developed and that Russia is not constrained by financial limitations, in spite
of all the shrieking about deficits and debt.

Most likely they will just be going with usual 1, 3 and 5 core variants depending on payload. No surprises there.

As for finances it is interesting that original pre-2014 super-heavy rocket was cancelled because of financial issues. And now even though officially space budget is being cut you have super-heavy project back on the table and officially given priority. That would mean that they are pumping additional money into space program.

Operational budget of Roskosmos is slashed but R&D budget is given the boost otherwise there would be no Soyuz-5 development. And according to that article I just posted amount of additional cash is 498 million dollars.

This is not a small amount, given all the cuts this is approaching total budget of Roskosmos.


Also:

Things are warming up in Omsk

Omsk plant "Polet" completed the assembly of the second "Angara" rocket

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95997/




RKS presented mobile complex for tracking rocket launches

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/95991/

Papadragon wrote:Don't know exactly, only know what's in the English article (don't speak the Russian language).

But Soyuz-5 is only new rocket project on the table and they already said that it will be Energia spin-off which is definitely best approach.

My guess is that they will be putting both subsidiaries on the job in some capacity since this is priority project.

Article says it will be RD-171MV for first stage and RD-0124M for second.

Well to be frank everything is shrouded in smoke. Lot of smoke and very less details. Yess 450 mil usd is a huge amount by today standards.but still
it is not getting official.

We remember the times when sputnik provided news of yu-71 and all that sorry. We cannot rely on these news unless some official informs.
Russians have a habit of deciding payload first and then going for rocket development.We can be sure that russsians will do that again.
This is exactly the reason that they are going for Angara "major Upgrade".


We do not know what exactly is there in Angara upgrade unless some official details about the things.

Angara upgrade can be compared to Tu 16 to TU22m3(back ntheday) or Tu-160 to TU-160m2.

There are 2-3 things which can be concluded

They are keeping tight lipped about their programs amidst financial restraints.

They are developing 2 parallel(one backup Progress Energia seems to be back up) heavy lift launch vehicles.

Some comments from roskosmos (or that Rogozin) can shed light on this matter .

Tass is coming new sputnik  .. lot of smoke and no details  .. typical Russky style

Kvs wrote:Anyway, it is great to see a full capability being developed and that Russia is not constrained by financial limitations, in spite
of all the shrieking about deficits and debt.

Russia uses its budget funds for development of rocket and space industry so it needs to balance military , civilian sectors. the 450 mil usd allocated
for this project clearly tells that they cannot match Chinese or American in their space developments.
But atleast they have started opening financial tap that was closed from the start of Ukrainian hostilities.

Angara is not getting any new upgrades, there will be Angara 1 light and Angara 5 medium. Manned vessel (Federation) is moved to Soyuz-5 (or "Sunkar" if you are Kazakh) for low Earth orbit and super-heavy rocket for deep space.

Manned version of Angara was backup plan after unplanned budget cuts due to Ukraine clustefuck but now with super-heavy back on the table it is no longer needed.

Of course the military could always be playing around with different versions of various rockets and not telling anyone about it but those would be cargo projects since they have no use for manned spacecraft. For them satellites are top priority as always.


Also:


Flight of First Russian Super Heavy-Lift Carrier Rocket Planned for 2028

The first flight of Russia's super heavy-lift carrier rocket with modernized RD-171MV engines is planned in 2028, the NPO Energomash corporation said in a presentation Wednesday.

https://sputniknews.com/science/201707191055680005-russia-super-heavy-lift-rocket/

ZHUKOVSKIY (Sputnik) — The new rocket is based on the suspended Soviet-era Energia-Buran project.

"The launch of the super heavy-class launch vehicle equipped with modernized RD-171MV engines is planned in 2028," the engine manufacturer's presentation made at the MAKS International Aviation and Space Salon states.

The RD-170 rocket engine, developed for the Energia project, has been upgraded and is used in Russian-Ukrainian Zenit carrier rockets as the RD-171, and in US' Atlas 5 launch systems as the RD-180.
Energia-Buran project was suspended in the 1990s. Five Energia rocket frames at various stages of construction were broken up at the Baikonur space center in Kazakhstan and at the Energia corporation assembly facilities.

Looks like Energia rocket will definitely have it's day after all. In retrospect, shame about Buran but you can't win everything...

So it is confirmed Soyuz-5 will fully replace Proton. They had enough of Proton.

miketheterrible wrote:So it is confirmed Soyuz-5 will fully replace Proton. They had enough of Proton.

Angara 5 was already supposed to replace Proton. Soyuz-5 is just icing on the cake.

Obsession with commercial segment is only thing that kept that pile of junk in the game. They were even wasting time and money on upgrading Proton, can you believe that?

Loads of resources, money, time and effort went into rocket that had no scalability and no capability of carrying manned spacecraft.

Now, while they may still cling to fantasy of competing for the market with state subsidized entity like SpaceX at least those efforts​ will be directed into platform that has realistic potential for both cargo and manned spaceflight.

Unintentional positive side effects. Still no complaints here, whatever gets the job done.

miketheterrible wrote:So it is confirmed Soyuz-5 will fully replace Proton. They had enough of Proton.

lets bet proton will outlive them both (soyuz5 , angara5)....
it seems musk has stirred up russian hornets nest    like i predicted , they cant compete and finally they admit that.... but again they are making same mistakes  with many different low series rockets , instead of consolidation and a strict plan.

Rmf wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:So it is confirmed Soyuz-5 will fully replace Proton. They had enough of Proton.

lets bet proton will outlive them both (soyuz5 , angara5)....
it seems musk has stirred up russian hornets nest    like i predicted , they cant compete and finally they admit that.... but again they are making same mistakes  with many different low series rockets , instead of consolidation and a strict plan.

Good luck, they already stamped expiration date on it.

Also, Proton is the reason for the loss of that ''precious'' market segment you keep whining about (obsolete, unreliable, non-scalable, expensive...)

Rmf wrote:
lets bet proton will outlive them both (soyuz5 , angara5)....
it seems musk has stirred up russian hornets nest    like i predicted , they cant compete and finally they admit that.... but again they are making same mistakes  with many different low series rockets , instead of consolidation and a strict plan.

FFS Rmf, you carry on you're some kinda Prophet with your "I predicted this" or "as I said", yet you are wrong at every turn (but lack the wisdom to realise it or the integrity to admit it).    Musk and his under-reported State subsidies threaten ULA and ArianeSpace far more than the threaten Roscosmos.  If Western launch slots are available, Western payload owners will nearly always choose Western launch services.  It's geopolitics, as usual.

There is no hornets nest.  Russia is mostly ambivalent about Musk as his activities do not impact Russia.  Despite your endless BS, Russian capabilities are required to provide independent Russian access to space for national defense and infrastructure projects.  Everything else, including commercial activities, are of secondary importance.  While it would be nice to control a significant slice of the international launcher market, in the current climate that simply won't happen.  Uh'Murikkkan obsessions with boxing in Russia and making her a vassal, along with supporting actions by their Euro-peon satraps, mean that even if Russia could gain a large market share, they would be sanctioned to death by preventing payloads with Western technology from being launched.  Currently, they (and the Chinese & Indians) are no threat to Western interests, so no noise is created.  If they were a threat, sanctions would follow once flimsy "justifications" are manufactured (like Russian "meddling" in US elections....)  

Despite your endless BS, current Russian launcher development strategy make eminent sense.  Angara is not a disaster as you constantly assert, so pls cease whining in the corner like a petulant child when the adults refuse to pay attention to your antics.  Consider:

Soyuz 2.1v leverages the existing Soyuz infrastructure to add a 2.8T LEO capability, replacing Strela (2.0T), Rockot (1.9T) and Kosmos 3M (1.5T).  
Angara A2 delivers 3.8T to LEO replacing Tsyklon (3.0T), and (partly) replacing Dnepr (4.5T)
Soyuz 2a & b continue to deliver 7.0T & 8.2T to LEO
Sunkar/Soyuz-5 will deliver 17T to LEO and replaces Ukropi Zenit.  Will carry the Federation CV.
Angara A5 delivers 25T to LEO and replaces hypergolic Proton.
Sunkar/Soyuz-5 stacks will deliver SHLV configurations, 80-100T to LEO

Angara A3 is no longer needed as the Zenit slot is to be filled by Sunkar/Soyuz-5, and also provides the next size bracket of scaleability to SHLVs (that 3-core A3 clearly cannot).

This all looks reasonable to me, and the modular nature of Angara and Soyuz-5 provide plenty of scope for typically-Russian continuous incremental development.  As a nice bonus, the above results in an elimination of Ukropistani components, depriving the Banderites of a market for their services and contributing to the ongoing erosion and eventual collapse of their aerospace industry.

Final word - neither Russia nor the US/Euro-peons have any payloads available that require SHLVs, so the heavy Soyuz-5 stack development running into the 2030s is hardly an issue.  Projected US deep-space missions are unlikely to proceed due to political infighting and ever-mounting economic problems in the Uh'Murikkkan Imperium, and an ISS replacement isn't on the cards for another few decades at least.  Musk promises his F9H but its clearly nowhere near ready for a test flight, and they lack payloads for it in any case (don't bother repeating Muskian agitprop about "Red Mars" or the fantasy about launching 4-5 geostationary commsats in a single launch).

PapaDragon wrote:Also, Proton is the reason for the loss of that ''precious'' market segment you keep whining about (obsolete, unreliable, non-scalable, expensive...)

Hmm... Expensive? Hardly. Its the least expensive 25T class LV around. Of course, its had an annoying tendency over the last decade of dropping 1 payload in 10, so take yer chances and keep yer insurance up to snuff...

Agreed BTW about commercial space. Fuck commercial space. Russian launch capabilities are about guaranteeing access to space in the face of endless geopolitical aggression from the Uh'Murikkkan Imperium and its Euro-peon vassals. Ignore Musk and his endless self-promoting hubristic bullshit. He'll grab market share from ULA and ArianeSpace, but Russian launch rates won't change much and Russian payloads will still reach orbit as needed. He won't deliver on his grandiose manned space promises as that costs buckets of money and doesn't deliver a single red cent of ROI, so the only customers will be national governments, and their pockets are getting tighter, so prospects are dim.

So it looks like they will be going with "bigger is better" approach. Smart. Apollo had only 30 seconds burn time room for errors. Too close.

Also there is error in the article, Angara setup required 6 launches not 4.


Russia develops new scheme of manned flight to Moon

Previous reports said the Russian manned mission to the Moon envisaged the use of four Angara carrier rockets

http://tass.com/science/956885

ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 19. /TASS/. Russia’s Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation has developed a new scheme of a piloted expedition to the Moon that requires two launches of a super-heavy rocket and one launch of a Soyuz-5 medium-class carrier, according to the corporation’s materials released on Wednesday.

"After a super-heavy carrier rocket is created, the number of launches is cut to three: one launch of a Soyuz-5 rocket and two launches of a super-heavy carrier rocket," say the materials circulated at the MAKS-2017 international airshow in Zhukovsky outside Moscow.

Previous reports said the Russian manned mission to the Moon envisaged the use of four Angara carrier rockets. However, this scheme was abandoned after the construction of the second launch pad for the Angara at the Vostochny cosmodrome in the Russian Far East was cancelled.

The new project envisages, as before, the assembly of a lunar expeditionary complex in the low near-Earth orbit. The complex is expected to be assembled within several months with the launch of rockets and a one-month interval between launches. Russia’s Federatsiya spacecraft in its lunar modification is expected to be launched with its crew to the International Space Station before that to wait for the assembly of a lunar expeditionary complex.

The complex itself should consist of an inter-orbital tug, a DM acceleration unit with additional fuel tanks, a lunar take-off and landing vehicle and the Federatsiya spacecraft

Saturn V took all of its mission load in one launch! And even with Super Heavy Russia needs 2 + 1 Medium launch? Any explanation why?

T-47 wrote:Saturn V took all of its mission load in one launch! And even with Super Heavy Russia needs 2 + 1 Medium launch? Any explanation why?

Explanation is that Von Braun was megalomaniac idiot. Saturn V single launch gave crews just 30 seconds extra burn time to correct any errors. It was borderline suicide mission on top of already existing risks. Margins of error were so small that had lunar missions continued with those parameters it would have resulted in catastrophic failure sooner than later. Fortunately they stopped after 7th.

They were in the hurry but it was no excuse for treating crews like expendable apes. Also, that Nazi moron's obsession with thin walls on rockets and spacecraft already killed crew of Apollo 1. In order to keep walls thin he insisted on 100% oxygen atmosphere to keep pressure low. He never considered that several cubic meters of electric wires surrounded by pure oxygen could result in instant fire. His V2 rockets built for The Reich had identical problem at first and 100% failure rate before design flaw was identified. Didn't stop him from repeating same thing with humans later in USA.

Apollo spacecraft had less than 50 tons. Russian spacecraft is planned to have 200 tons in order to avoid whole "borderline suicide" component. That's 4 times larger. Hence several launches.

Also today we know that there is a significant amount of solar radiation outside Earth's magnetic field and that larger and heavier shielding is required to keep crew alive. Had Apollo missions flew during periods of higher solar activity crews would have been killed.

PapaDragon wrote:

T-47 wrote:Saturn V took all of its mission load in one launch! And even with Super Heavy Russia needs 2 + 1 Medium launch? Any explanation why?

Explanation is that Von Braun was megalomaniac idiot. Saturn V single launch gave crews just 30 seconds extra burn time to correct any errors. It was borderline suicide mission on top of already existing risks. Margins of error were so small that had lunar missions continued with those parameters it would have resulted in catastrophic failure sooner than later. Fortunately they stopped after 7th.

They were in the hurry but it was no excuse for treating crews like expendable apes. Also, that Nazi moron's obsession with thin walls on rockets and spacecraft already killed crew of Apollo 1. In order to keep walls thin he insisted on 100% oxygen atmosphere to keep pressure low. He never considered that several cubic meters of electric wires  surrounded by pure oxygen could result in instant fire. His V2 rockets built for The Reich had identical problem at first and 100% failure rate before design flaw was identified. Didn't stop him from repeating same thing with humans later in USA.

Apollo spacecraft had less than 50 tons. Russian spacecraft is planned to have 200 tons in order to avoid whole "borderline suicide" component. That's 4 times larger. Hence several launches.

Also today we know that there is a significant amount of solar radiation outside Earth's magnetic field and that larger and heavier shielding is required to keep crew alive. Had Apollo missions flew during periods of higher solar activity crews would have been killed.

Ah thanks

Another shield material is water... I remember a plan to fill a bladder with water, with an outer shell to protect it from the suns heat and spin the whole structure to keep it frozen... it can be used as water... recycled and replaced when needed... it can also be used as rocket fuel, and when it is not used for either it is the outer structure of the spaceship...

Of course most actual plans for long range flight include a very small shielded manned capsule not much bigger than a wardrobe where the crew will shelter during bad solar storms... I couldn't imagine spending days at a time in such a small space, but if the alternative is an agonising death by radiation I guess I would learn to cope.

Russian super-heavy booster vehicle to bring payloads of 70 tns to orbit

http://tass.com/science/957610

The new Russian super-heavy booster vehicle will have a capability to bring payloads of more than 70 tons to the low-earth orbit, the Russian state space corporation Roscosmos said in a bidding documentation uploaded at the web site of governmental procurements.

"The launching complex will have a launch pad that will make it possible to prepare booster vehicles for launches and to launch the booster vehicles of medium class and super-heavy class, the latter with a capacity to take payloads of more than 70 tonnes to the low-earth orbit," the documents said.

The super-heavy booster vehicle will have a universal launch pad suitable for liftoffs of the vehicles of various load-carrying capacity. Also, it will give an opportunity for ballistic testing of the central block and the third-stage block of the super-heavy booster vehicle with the diameter of 7.7 meters.

The super-heavy area will be transported in the vertical position after assembly in the technical area to the launch pad over a distance of 4.2 km. The launch equipment will be located in a pit having the depth of three to four underground floors.

Roscosmos is ready to pay 3.4 million rubles (about $57,500) to a company that will do a technical assessment of the project, which it plans to implement at the Vostochny Space Center in Russia’s Far East.

A well-informed source in the aerospace industry told TASS at the beginning of July the launch pad at Vostochny will have the same principles at launch pad No. 250 at the Baikonur Space Center in Kazakhstan that was built for the Energiya booster vehicle. This will be a universal liftoff stand for the medium-class Soyuz-5 booster vehicles and for cluster of two, three or five boosters of the kind.

The project indicates that Roscosmos plans to hold the first flight tests of the booster vehicle in 2028.

Interview in Russian :

Head of TsENKI: deadlines for the creation of the Soyuz-5 rocket and launch pad for it are 3-4 years

http://tass.ru/opinions/interviews/4428506