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Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1

TR1: Posts : 5435
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Post n°126

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:20 pm

dionis wrote:

Once they are 4-5 units in, we'll see how long it takes them to build.

Oh sure, after 4-5 units, then how many will even be left in the series?
The average build time will still be ass.

And anyone thinking the rate will drop bellow (at best) 4-5 years from start to commissioning is fooling themselves.
That's not even a bad rate, only the US is a true outlier when it comes to large nuclear submarine construction speed.

Vann7

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Post n°127

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Vann7 Sat May 02, 2015 10:22 pm

TR1 wrote:
I would MUCH rather Russia lay down 4 boats and finish them within 5 years than the current situation.

As was explained to you the delays were funding and technology problems.
Did you saw my post when i told you Seawolf class took 14 YEARS!!!!!! to make???????
from 1983 to 1997..!! is that fast to you? Laughing

The first Submarine always takes more time IDIOT.. and US have infinite more money to
slap more workers and speed things.. But even with all their money they experience in their
first model delays.. Virginia is a dumbed down version of the seawolf class is effectively
a sea wolf light.. a more cheaper serial production of Seawolf. So US had no made any brand new submarine since they released the Seawolf!!!.. instead what they have done is cheaper versions of it ,called Virginia class and upgrading components here and there..nothing new ,using old obsolete tomahawks/harpoon weapons. So thats why it takes less time Because is not a new submarine ..is a serial production of a submarine desgined in the 80s. and they not even build new weapons.. Ohios still using the tridents from the 70s.. go figure out.. and Virginia the tomahawks of the 80s.. lol1

Now i will like to see in 2020 this thread again ,to see how fool you are.. and all those 14 new submarines Russia have in schedule being done. that will throw away your 1 decade bullshit to build one submarine by Russia shipyards. Serial production dude is always faster. get over it..
if there is no funding problems ,serial production of the subs will be done on time as simple as that.

Last edited by Vann7 on Sat May 02, 2015 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

TR1

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Post n°128

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:24 pm

kvs wrote:The BS revisionism TR1 is peddling is that "Russia" doesn't have the capability. The facts are something else.
The 1990s economic implosion under the US-backed Yeltsin regime halted many projects dead in their tracks
and degraded Russia's economy and productive capacity by over 50%. In the case of the military it was
actually closer to 80%. I am talking about productive capacity and not existing equipment and
underpaid men experiencing long term disappearance of military capacity like in Ukraine.

Clearly, only a hater troll would conflate the economic disruption with "Russia's ability". Thanks to Putin's undoing
of Yeltsin's nightmare Russia has managed to restore its productive capacity to a high level. It is less than it was
in the good old days in some ways, but better in others. It took about 8 years from 2000 to 2008 to restore Russia's
productive capacity to a reasonable level so you have do add an additional few years for project delay. A good
15 years of project paralysis is what Russia experienced.

A 15 year delay in construction due to the post 1991 transition has no relevance for any project started
after 2008 and today. TR1 was already attacking me for posting that the six Project 636.3 diesel-electric subs
would be finished as planned with his usual pulled from the a** truthiness and chutzpah. Eat this:

http://www.janes.com/article/42571/russia-launches-third-improved-kilo-submarine-commissions-first

Three of them delivered already last year.

You have an amazing ability to be wrong every time you post.

1.)I said Russia takes longer to build the big ships, and that is the reality. End. Of.Story. Unless funding magically explodes, it won't be making boats much faster.
2.) Three kilos were NOT delivered. Only two. Delivery occurs after trials. You would know this if you have any clue what you were babbling about.
3.) Take a nice hard look at the period of construction for the Kilos.
The first took 39 months.
The second 31 months.
Hell, even by now we are down to a good figure, under two years.....thats the time it takes the US to make and commission a MUCH LARGER nuclear boat.
RUSSIA STRONG11!11111

And the notion that the same massive increases in speed that happened with Kilos, will happen with 955s and 885s are the kool-aid of children.
The diseal boats were constantly under production for export, are a well mastered series, and are tiny and cheap in comparison.

Once again, for you extra-slow folks:
yes, the construction speed of the 955s and 885s will be faster than the first half of the series.
No, it wont be as fast as the US pumps out the Virginias.

TR1

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Post n°129

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:26 pm

Vann7 wrote:

TR1 wrote:
I would MUCH rather Russia lay down 4 boats and finish them within 5 years than the current situation.

As was explained to you the delays were funding and technology problems.
Did you saw my post when i told you Seawolf class took 14 YEARS!!!!!! to make???????
The first Submarine always takes more time IDIOT.. and US have infinite more money to
slap more workers and speed things.. But even with all their money they experience in their
first model delays.. Virginia is a dumbed down version of the seawolf class is is effectively
a more cheaper serial production of Seawolf. So US had no made any brand new submarine
since they released the Seawolf.. instead what they have done is cheaper versions of it called Virginia and upgrading components here and there.. So thats why it takes less time Because is not a new submarine ..is a serial production of a submarine desgined in the 80s.

Now i will like to see in 2020 this thread again ,to see how fool you are.. and all those submarines Russia have in schedule being done. that will throw away your 1 decade bullshit to build one submarine by Russia shipyards. Serial production dude is always faster. get over it..
if there is no funding problems ,the subs will be done on time as simple as that.

The only idiot here, like always, is you.

You have absolutely no idea what you are babbling about.

I am done responding to you.

And each Seawolf took 1-2 years to make. Cry more about that.

And don't worry. I will be sure to laugh at you when in 2020 Russia hasn't commissioned anywhere close to 8 Borreis and 8 Yasens or whatever BS the media peddles.

TR1

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Post n°130

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:34 pm

kvs wrote: TR1 was already attacking me for posting that the six Project 636.3 diesel-electric subs
would be finished as planned with his usual pulled from the a** truthiness and chutzpah. Eat this:

Show me where I attacked you.

Further, let's look at what you said, last year:

" Each boat is supposed to take about 1.5 years to complete and all six will be delivered by
the end of next year."

https://www.russiadefence.net/t3419p255-russian-military-reforms-command-structure

Hmmm. Its 2015, and I don't see all 6 being delivered by the end of this year.

Wrong like always.

Vann7

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Post n°131

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Vann7 Sat May 02, 2015 10:41 pm

TR1 wrote:

And each Seawolf took 1-2 years to make. Cry more about that.

lets see again ..
1)Seawolf class..
Design work began in 1983

laid down.. 14 September 1992
Launched 1 September 1997
Commision 11 December 1998

2)Yasen class...
Laid down .. 21 December 1993
Launched ... 15 June........ 2010
Commision... 30 December 2013

So the Seawolf took 6 Years to make !!!!!!!!!
Now you need to take into account Russia economy default when Yasen was being made..
Contrary to USA.. that didn't experienced any default.. So delays of Russia have been largely
economy. Now to believe that it will take Russia 10 years to build each submarine can only come from an ignorant , that do not understand anything of how building process works and how much faster things become when already mastered and produced in series. So actually US took 6 years to build their first Seawolf class.. and they just cut it down in half in features ,in half its features and build a (Seawolf light) called Virginia.. thats how they produce them faster.. is called Experience and .. that happens after you do the same things over and over. It also helps when the Submarine is significantly less featured than the original Seawolf class.

Last edited by Vann7 on Sat May 02, 2015 10:53 pm; edited 2 times in total

TR1

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Post n°132

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:47 pm

Ooops, I misread that as the first flight of Virginias.

I am not above saying I was wrong about that point.

However, the US proceeded to pump out Virginias at under 2 year paces. Repeatedly.

Russia ain't touching that, sorry.

And no, I never said it will take TEN YEARS TO MAKE EVERY SUBMARINE.

Though, as we have seen, there have been plenty of ~decade long examples.

That 14 submarine chart is stupid and meaningless, end of story.

4 submarines that take 5 years to make >>>>> the mess that Russian submarine building is today.

Your claim about Russian sub fleet approaching that of the US is baloney, through and through.

The fleet will drop in numbers in reality.

mack8

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Post n°133

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

mack8 Sat May 02, 2015 10:53 pm

You know, i've hardly had reason so far to doubt TRs naval knowledge, despite his "reputation" on this forum, but i can see now that he is literally trolling this topic and posting absolute rubbish. American subs like Seawolf or Virginia took only 1-2 years to build and finish?!!! Try again, more like 5 or 6. Provide proof Seawolf took 2 years to build.

Just a cursory reading on the subject indeed shows unexplainable under 2 years construction for the latest Virginias, but i bet anything you want that the explanation is simple: they are "cheating", as in building the modular sections first and counting keel laying when they start assembling the modules. There is no *** way they can built something like that from scratch in 2 years or even less. I will admit being wrong on this if an unbiased naval expert here (not TR1 obviously) says so.

Anyway, don't want to disrupt this topic discussing about the damn yanks, just wanted to point out the blatant hypocrisy in TR1's post, not to mention that he has the guts to keep to insulting other members here by claiming his (largely false) information is correct.

Last edited by mack8 on Sat May 02, 2015 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

TR1

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Post n°134

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:55 pm

Like I said, I made a mistake because of the flurry of people I was replying to.

However, the point stands regarding Virginias.

If I had to point out every single time you clowns were wrong about something, I would have a book.

But go ahead, miss the larger point and focus on the one mistake.

TR1

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Post n°135

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:56 pm

mack8 wrote:You know, i've hardly had reason so far to doubt TRs naval knowledge, despite his "reputation" on this forum, but i can see now that he is literally trolling this topic and posting absolute rubbish. American subs like Seawolf or Virginia took only 1-2 years to build and finish?!!! Try again, more like 5 or 6. Provide proof Seawolf took 2 years to build.
s topic discussing about the damn yanks, just wanted to point out the blatant hypocrisy in TR1's post, not to mention that he has the guts to keep to insulting other members here by claiming his (largely false) information is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine

I know the reality hurts, but go ahead.

You can check it all.

The rate of Virginia construction is unparalled, compared to Russian nuclear boat building.

Vann7

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Post n°136

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Vann7 Sat May 02, 2015 10:58 pm

TR1 wrote:Like I said, I made a mistake because of the flurry of people I was replying to.

.

Of course you are mistaken ..
Seawolf in 2 years.. lol1

Yasen serial production in 10 years? Rolling Eyes

there is one commisioned now how much you want to bet 3-5 Yasens will be made
before 2020? that is in just 5 years?

TR1

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Post n°137

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 10:59 pm

mack8 wrote:

Just a cursory reading on on the subject indeed show unexplainable under 2 years construction for the latest Virginias, but i bet anything you want that the explanation is simple: they are "cheating", as in building the modular sections first and counting keel laying when they start assembling the modules. There is no *** way they can built something like that from scratch in 2 years or even less. I will admit being wrong on this if an unbiased naval expert here (not TR1 obviously) says so.

You keep showing how little you know about naval matters. And you have the gall to point out ONE mistake I made?

Let's see, where to start.

1.) By your standard, Russia cheats as well. Why? Because The Knyaz Vladimir and Knyaz Oleg started work @ Sevmash well before their official lay-down dates. Due to some cock-ups with the contract, the official lay down date is well after the work really started.

2.) No way it can build something like that in 2 years ? Orly?
Would you believe the USSR built AND COMMISIONED project 971 boats within the span of a SINGLE YEAR?
So yes, it can be done.

Accusing me of bias, in the midts of this Russia strong circlejerk is too much.

TR1

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Post n°138

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 11:02 pm

Vann7 wrote:

TR1 wrote:Like I said, I made a mistake because of the flurry of people I was replying to.

.

Of course you are mistaken ..
Seawolf in 2 years..

Yasen serial production in 10 years?

there is one commisioned now how much you want to bet 3-5 Yasens will be made
before 2020? that is in just 5 years?

I never said Yasen serial production takes 10 years.

It won't ever take 2 years though.

So far the Borrei serial's have taken 9 years to make. No squirming will change that.

Should I bring up how completely wrong you were regarding the current Russian sub fleet? 55 boats or whatever nonsense you posted?

Last edited by TR1 on Sat May 02, 2015 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

TR1

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Post n°139

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 11:05 pm

TR1 wrote:Oh, I am making crap up eh?

The entire Block II line took 1-2 years for each boat to be laid down, finished and commissioned.
The first was laid down in 2007. The last was commissioned in 2013. That series was composed of 6 boats. 6 nuclear attack boats in 7 years. Remind me when that has happened in Russia last?

Blah blah blah blah will speed up blah blah blah.

Yeah, it will increase over the first ship.
By how much? Anywhere close to US speed?

Project 955:
1st ship: a century to finish. We know why.
2nd ship: 9 years.
3rd ship: 9 years.
4th ship: 3 years and counting. Won't be commissioned for a while at best.

Project 885:
1st ship: two decades. We know why. Still in only experimental service.
2nd ship: 6 years, still has not hit the water or started trials.

Will it likely go faster? Sure. Not enough to make Vann's stupid point any closer to reality however.
Especially in attack submarines, there won't be a "closing in numbers" between the two.

The whole discussion utterly pointless. 4 submarine under construction is much better than a dozen that take a decade to get anywhere. I am exaggerating, but only slightly.

I am gonna keep reposting this.

Any further discussion is utterly pointless and a waste of my time.

Oh, and to add to that:
2 of the 677 submarines on Vann's chart........both laid down in 2005 and 2006.
Khabarovsk is a rebuilt project 949A special purpose sub. Also in construction for decades.

But yeah, catching up to the US navy any day now!

TR1

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Post n°140

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

TR1 Sat May 02, 2015 11:10 pm

Vann7 wrote:
Already Russia have 55 Submarines.. and US 72..

Then Russia will have 55 +14 submarines = 69 and US will have 72+4 = 76.

Just to make sure this does not get burried. 100% baloney that Vann won't own up to.

Since no doubt half the posts will be people harping "you were wrong about Seawolfs!"...a fair mistake that I admit, while ignoring the drivel I was responding to.

Werewolf

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Post n°141

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Werewolf Sat May 02, 2015 11:25 pm

Jesus, come down. You do know the forum rules and spamming is against the rules, instead of posting 5 comments just edit it and add it to your previous comment, just making it horrible for people to even answer to what you have said when you do it in this unorganized manner.

GarryB

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Post n°142

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

GarryB Sun May 03, 2015 2:57 am

So lets take the devils advocate position and choose to view things the way TR1 does.

The US.... untouched by economic sanctions and economic collapse, and having never had major components like engines and transmissions produced in what is now a foreign country, with modern state of the art facilities that are funded by the largest military budget on the planet that exceeds all other budgets combined can make more SSNs than Russian can.

Hooray.

BUT.

The Russians are making more SSBNs and SSKs than the US is.

Considering SSBNs are strategically important and SSNs are not... I say the Russians are getting the best value for money.

Why do we have to compare with the US when we are constantly told Russia is a third world country with the GDP of Portugal... in that situation the Russian shipyards are doing an outstanding job... Twisted Evil

BTW any more personal attacks or abuse and this thread will be locked and the offender will get a two day break to think about why they come here.

Dima

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Post n°143

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Dima Sun May 03, 2015 9:05 pm

Thought about posting some timelines for US subs from wiki. Hope it helps. Approx time in years given, corrections are welcome.

Main difference between Russian and US production to be note is the contract and procurement. This is where it all makes the difference. In addition, the keel laying in most cases are not just the ceremonial hull plates like we see with Russian yards, but in cases its completed hull sections nearing 50-60% of hull and the reason why we see smaller completion timelines of 2yrs or below.

I think the blame for non-performance or lack of construction pace should rest with the political and military decision makers rather than Sevmash yard. Let them correct the planning, funding and procurement part and I can bet my arse on Sevmash delivering at a faster pace and the entire ship building industry moving to a higher level. But that said, the likes of Severnya yard which have the monopoly to build pr.22350 and pr.20380 need to be broken at the earliest and parallel construction lines needs to be started. Their monopoly is harming and will only continue to harm the Russian Navy than doing anything good.

Block-I
Block I boats were built in 10 modules with each submarine requiring roughly 7 years (84 months) to build.

USS Virginia (SSN-774)

Contract - 30 September 1998, Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics Corporation
Keel laid - 2 September 1999
Launched - 16 August 2003
Delivered - 12 October 2004
Commissioned - 23 October 2004

Time from keel to delivery/commission - 4yrs/5yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - 5yrs/6yrs

USS Texas (SSN-775)

Contract - 30 September 1998, Northrop Grumman Newport News shipyard
Keel laid - 12 July 2002
Launched - 9 April 2005
Delivered -
Commissioned - 9 September 2006

Time from keel to delivery/commission - /4yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - /8yrs

USS Hawaii (SSN-776)

Contract - 30 September 1998, Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics Corporation
Keel laid - 27 August 2004
Launched -
Delivered - 22 December 2006
Commissioned - 5 May 2007

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - 2yrs/2.4yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - 8yrs/8.4yrs

USS North Carolina (SSN-777)

Contract - 30 September 1998
Keel laid - 24 May 2004
Launched - 5 May 2007
Delivered -
Commissioned - 3 May 2008

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - /4yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - /10yrs

Block-II
Block II boats were built in four sections rather than ten sections, saving about $300 million per boat.

USS New Hampshire (SSN-778)

Contract - 14 August 2003, Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics Corporation
Keel laid - 30 April 2007
Launched - 21 February 2008
Delivered - 28 August 2008
Commissioned - 25 October 2008

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - 1.25yrs/2.5yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - 5yrs/5yrs

USS New Mexico (SSN-779)

Contract - 14 August 2003
Keel laid - 12 April 2008
Launched - 18 January 2009
Delivered - 29 December 2009
Commissioned - 27 March 2010

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - 1.75yrs/2yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - 6.3yrs/6.5yrs

USS Missouri (SSN-780)

Contract - 14 August 2003, Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics Corporation
Keel laid - 27 September 2008
Launched - 20 November 2009
Delivered -
Commissioned - 31 July 2010

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - /1.75yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - /7yrs

USS California (SSN-781)

Contract - 14 August 2003, Newport News Shipbuilding
Keel laid - 1 May 2009
Launched - 14 November 2010
Delivered - 7 August 2011
Commissioned - 29 October 2011

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - 2.25yrs/2.5yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - 8yrs/8.2yrs

USS Mississippi (SSN-782)

Contract - 14 August 2003, Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics Corporation
Keel laid - 9 June 2010
Launched -
Delivered -
Commissioned - 2 June 2012

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - /2yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - /9yrs

USS Minnesota (SSN-783)

Contract - 14 August 2003
Keel laid - 20 May 2011
Launched -
Delivered - 6 June 2013
Commissioned - 7 September 2013

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - 2yrs/2.25yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - 9.8yrs/10yrs

Block- III
Block III subs feature a revised bow with a Large Aperture Bow (LAB) sonar array, as well as technology from Ohio-class SSGNs (2 VLS tubes each containing 6 missiles). The horseshoe-shaped LAB sonar array replaces the spherical main sonar array which has been used on all U.S. Navy SSNs since 1960. The LAB sonar array is water-backed—as opposed to earlier sonar arrays which were air-backed—and consists of a passive array and a medium-frequency active array.

North Dakota (SSN-784)

Contract - 14 August 2003
Keel laid - 11 May 2012
Launched - 15 September 2013
Delivered - 29 August 2014
Commissioned - 25 October 2014

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - 2.25yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission - 11yrs

John Warner (SSN-785)

Contract - 22 December 2008
Keel laid - 16 Mar 2013
Launched - 10 September 2014
Delivered - contract for delivery in August 2015
Commissioned -

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission -
Time from contract to delivery/commission -

Illinois (SSN-786)

Contract - 22 December 2008
Keel laid - 2 June 2014
Launched -
Delivered - under contract to be delivered in August 2016
Commissioned -

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission -
Time from contract to delivery/commission -

Russian nuclear submarine timelines.

Pr.955 Yury Dolgorukiy

Contract - Sevmash
Keel laid - 2 November 1996
Launched - 13 February 2008
Delivered -
Commissioned - 10 January 2013

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - /16yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission -

Pr.955 Alexander Nevsky

Contract - Sevmash
Keel laid - 19 March 2004
Launched - 6 December 2010
Delivered -
Commissioned - 23 December 2013

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - /9.75yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission -

Pr.955 Vladimir Monomakh

Contract - Sevmash
Keel laid - 19 March 2006
Launched - 30 December 2012
Delivered -
Commissioned - 19 December 2014

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission - 8.75yrs
Time from contract to delivery/commission -

Pr.955A Knyaz Vladimir

Contract -
Keel laid - 30 July 2012
Launched -
Delivered -
Commissioned -

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission -
Time from contract to delivery/commission -

Pr.955A Knyaz Oleg

Contract - Sevmash
Keel laid - 27 July 2014
Launched -
Delivered -
Commissioned -

Time from keel laying to delivery/commission -
Time from contract to delivery/commission -

Russia has a long way to go in terms of numbers but it is very well doable and within the capacity and capability of the yards. But yards taken in isolation is nothing, as said earlier there has to be a proper plan with solid funding and procurement process so that yards can do what it is meant to do and not hindered by these two which are the single most factor for lack of pace from Russian yards. Blaming the yards and design bureaus for all the fault while letting go the political and decision making arseholes wont do any good and is akin to burying head in sand to the obvious problem that was the norm past decades.

PapaDragon

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Post n°144

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

PapaDragon Sun May 03, 2015 9:43 pm

Dima wrote:

Try yandex translate.... https://translate.yandex.com/translate

Thanks Dima, I bookmarked that baby. thumbsup

Vann7

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Post n°145

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Vann7 Sun May 03, 2015 9:45 pm

there you go. .2 years !! to build virginias.. Laughing

Is looks like 10 to me.. lol

Russia had problems that US didn't like economy default in the 90s.. and having to build a 100% new Submarine with 100% new weapons , that experience problems like Bulava those things delay project.. is normal.. But i don't think that once Russia master the process of building a Submarine.. that they will have to go through all the trial and error again.. DUH!

Also TR1 completely ignores that in Soviet times ,the 1 year submarines they produced were significantly more easier and simple to make.. and world war 2 submarines were just a piece
of closed metal with a snorkel .even less time took to make for soviets and germans.

Fortunately Russia is not cutting corners in their Yasen or Borei Submarines and each one of them is head and shoulders over their Seawolf/Virginia and Ohio submarines.. in terms of technology .. Ohios are 40 years old technology with about 40 years old tridents nukes.. for example and depends of escorts to protect it. while Borei can defend itself. and is using state of the art technology.. that Americans do not have.

mack8

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Post n°146

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

mack8 Sun May 03, 2015 10:11 pm

Nice info, thanks Dima.

Interesting how the apparent construction of the Virginias seems sharply reduced once the four module block assembly is introduced. It indeed only can be reasonably explained by building those blocks well in advance of the official keel laying (assembling those blocks basically) imo.

As for the russian subs, do we know if the Yasen and Borey use modular construction? Regardless, i think it is fair to say that the situation in regards to the SSN/SSBN construction is greatly improving compared to the disastrous period of the nineties and early 2000s, and should keep to unless some major mess-up, it may well be that the plan for 8 of each by 2020 will not be met, but probably by say 2021-2022 would be realistic (is there anything that does
not suffer delays these days?), that still being a huge improvement for the Navy, especially the nuclear deterrent, no matter how you look at it.

Would be interesting what the long term plans for the 2030 horizon are, would they eventually build 14 Borey/Borey-M (we can expect improvements imo) to match the americans' Ohio numbers, plus something like 2 dozen Yasen/Yasen-M, or once the initial 8 of each are completed they will be replaced by new designs? Any info on that front?

Oh and how about the SSKs, there should be six pr.636 plus two improved pr.677 (plus the only Lada in the initial form that was not accepted) by 2020 is that correct? (i did of course some reading on the subject but would be nice to confirm from russian sources)

Last edited by mack8 on Sun May 03, 2015 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dima

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Post n°147

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Dima Sun May 03, 2015 10:17 pm

Vann7 wrote:
there you go. .2 years !! to build virginias.. Is looks like 10 to me.. lol

The important thing is they are building it at a steady pace. When funding & procurement is proper, everything falls in line. For example in modular construction its different workshops that do different things...so the workshop which is fabricating the outer hull will continue to do it as long as the materials to be worked upon is in flow. This is probably how the vessels in the list contracted for got launched with good part of hull completed and much more than just few hull plates, because they do not sit idle after one hull has been completed, instead they work according to plan for the numbers contracted for.

Russia had problems that US didn't like economy default in the 90s.. and having to build a 100% new Submarine with 100% new weapons , that experience problems like Bulava those things delay project.. is normal.. But i don't think that once Russia master the process of building a Submarine.. that they will have to go through all the trial and error again.. DUH!

More than the yards mastering, its the basic needs like planning and procurement and the much needed funding that has to be on track.

Also TR1 completely ignores that in Soviet times ,the 1 year submarines they produced were significantly more easier and simple to make.. and world war 2 submarines were just a piece
of closed metal with a snorkel .even less time took to make for soviets and germans.

The submarines at that time was not of any lesser complexity for that time. But the difference was a well oiled machinery with funds and political will to fuel it.

kvs

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Post n°148

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

kvs Sun May 03, 2015 10:22 pm

Thanks for the data, Dima.

Sevmash was like Almaz-Antei in 2003. Their equipment was falling apart and there was no money. This is the
starting point for any discussion and not some nonsense about some nebulous "ability". The head of Sevmash stated
last year that they had managed to upgrade their equipment. This process was not a rapid transition back in 2004,
it took many years due to the lack of funding.

It is not legitimate to predict completion timelines based on anything before 2008. And there is no evidence of any
crisis in delivery with multi-year overruns.

As usual the US and Russia comparisons are afflicted with apples and oranges comparisons. The Virginia completion
periods are meaningless if they start with 50% complete hulls.

Dima

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Post n°149

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Dima Sun May 03, 2015 10:57 pm

mack8 wrote:Nice info, thanks Dima.

Interesting how the apparent construction of the Virginias seems sharply reduced once the four module block assembly is introduced. It indeed only can be reasonably explained by building those blocks well in advance of the official keel laying (assembling those blocks basically) imo.

Yes that's how it is and the reason why they are able to complete it at a seemingly very fast pace. But in reality it is not 2 years, more like 4yrs per sub from the first metal cut. But its a very healthy thing.

As for the russian subs, do we know if the Yasen and Borey use modular construction?

Yes it could be. We have seen it for 11356, 677 etc. But the degree of modular construction vary. Russian yards as seen are using bare hull sections and later on fitting it out where as we saw the Brits with mostly fitted out sections for QE class a/c carrier.

Regardless, i think it is fair to say that the situation in regards to the SSN/SSBN construction is greatly improving compared to the disastrous period of the nineties and early 2000s, and should keep to unless some major mess-up, it may well be that the plan for 8 of each by 2020 will not be met, but probably by say 2021-2022 would be realistic (is there anything that does
not suffer delays these days?), that still being a huge improvement for the Navy, especially the nuclear deterrent, no matter how you look at it.

Funding is the single factor, its beyond the yards control and are completely helpless in this regard.

Would be interesting what the long term plans for the 2030 horizon are, would they eventually build 14 Borey/Borey-M (we can expected improvements imo) to match the americans' Ohio numbers, plus something like 2 dozen Yasen/Yasen-M, or once the initial 8 of each are completed they will be replaced by new designs? Any info on that front?

Lets hope they complete the current figures of 8 and 10. What could succeed is hard to predict.
Personally I would love to see the 885 getting continued to replace the entire lot of 945 and 971... but if there is no option to fund it what can we say...

Oh and how about the SSKs, there should be six pr.636 plus two improved pr.677 (plus the only Lada in the initial form that was not accepted) by 2020 is that correct? (i did of course some reading on the subject but would be nice to confirm from russian sources)

Six 636.6 are on their way and the lone 677 is likely to be fitted with the AIP by 2017 and plans are for the rest of 677 to come online with this AIP as standard. So if everything goes alright there should be no less than 3-4 of Lada/Kalina by 2020. Lets hope it goes our way.

mack8

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Post n°150

Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

mack8 Sun May 03, 2015 11:35 pm

Thanks again for input Dima.

Six 636.6 are on their way and the lone 677 is likely to be fitted with the AIP by 2017 and plans are for the rest of 677 to come online with this AIP as standard. So if everything goes alright there should be no less than 3-4 of Lada/Kalina by 2020. Lets hope it goes our way.

Well, for what its worth i'm reading in wiki (not exactly the best or most up to date source i know) that at least initially six of these AIP equipped Lada/Kalinas are planned.

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