Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Are there any plans to strengthen Baltic Fleet's submarine force? According to Wikipedia they currently have only 2 (or is it actually 1?). Shouldn't they build some improved Kilos or Ladas for the fleet after they finish with the Black Sea?

And TR1, how does this look:

Russian submarine fleet in the future:

18 SSN
24 SSK
8 SSBN

= 50 submarines

Northern and Pacific Fleets: 9 SSN, 6 SSK, 4 SSBN, each
Baltic and Black Sea Fleets: 6 SSK, each

Akula, Typhoon, Borei are all double hulled whereas major US subs like Ohio Class and Los Angeles class are single hulled.

Do Double Hulled Submarines provide some advantage/s over Single Hulled Submarines?

jhelb wrote:
Akula, Typhoon, Borei are all double hulled whereas major US subs like Ohio Class and Los Angeles class are single hulled.

Do Double Hulled Submarines provide some advantage/s over Single Hulled Submarines?

The US never opted for the double-hulled design coz it's more efficient/beneficial to not put in all that cost and effort when the same results can still be achieved if your technological acumen is high enough.The US always opted for single hull designs with a modular internal layout that allows for rapid and efficient damage control. Whereas the Soviet Union went for an alternative route by having much simpler internal layouts (easier for mass production) protected by a double wrapped hull.

The downside to the Soviet practice (at least from the US perspective) is that if you opt for a double hulled design made of Titanium without too much compartmentalization then if your sub takes on water it's going to sink like a brick past it's crush depth before damage control can correct the flooding, especially in situations where the hull might be sufficiently damaged enough (let's say from an engagement) where the ballast tanks are non-responsive. There could also be an issue in terms of hull integrity if the Titanium itself gets too brittle and cracks from the typically cold waters of the North Atlantic.

The Russians opt for double hull because it can provide higher probability to surfacing in event of disaster due to its ROB (Reserve of Buoyancy). This capability become very important during early days of Russian nuclear subs where damaged submarine can still surface and the concern related to sea-mine danger. Typical Russian submarine like Kilo have ROB of 32% the largest is Akula-941 with ROB of over 45-50%

Americans abandoned double hull concept and opt for single hull due to hydrodynamic reason, the single hull submarine has smaller wetted area thus took less power to propel itself underwater. This however accompanied by smaller Reserve of Buoyancy in order of only 10-15% (Recent US boat however like Seawolf have ROB of 20%) Which would mean should the pressure hull punctured or ballast tank loss, the sub is in grave danger of not be able to return to surface.

RTN wrote:
The US never opted for the double-hulled design coz it's more efficient/beneficial to not put in all that cost and effort when the same results can still be achieved if your technological acumen is high enough.The US always opted for single hull designs with a modular internal layout that allows for rapid and efficient damage control. Whereas the Soviet Union went for an alternative route by having much simpler internal layouts (easier for mass production) protected by a double wrapped hull.

says who... ofc. they'll say their practice is the correct one. and btw the pressure hulls are compartmentalized too.

RTN wrote:
The downside to the Soviet practice (at least from the US perspective) is that if you opt for a double hulled design made of Titanium without too much compartmentalization then if your sub takes on water it's going to sink like a brick past it's crush depth before damage control can correct the flooding, especially in situations where the hull might be sufficiently damaged enough (let's say from an engagement) where the ballast tanks are non-responsive. There could also be an issue in terms of hull integrity if the Titanium itself gets too brittle and cracks from the typically cold waters of the North Atlantic.

the same can be said of murican subs. cause thats what happens when you get holed. and pray tell why is murican compartmentalization better than the Russian/ Soviet one- because im looking at a cross section of an Akula and a Ohio and I see that Akula's smaller pressure hull houses smaller rooms and only about 2 per hull section, if it gets hit from one side the other pressure hull is almost unscathed so you end up with a lot less flooded compartments.

not that many subs use titanium- and the titanium hulls were OK- no problems after the first one, in fact they are noises about reusing some hulls for new subs. and the brittleness issue in cold waters is obvious BS - these things operate in very, very cold waters and are expected to dive really deep at the same time, and they did.

The Future is Now: Russian Navy to Modernize Ten Nuclear Submarines


continuation from your press note

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150621/1023668919.html

Russian Naval Forces plan to upgrade ten nuclear submarines with the newest armament and ship systems.
Russian Naval Forces plan to upgrade ten nuclear submarines, said the Navy Commander Viktor Chirkov during the ceremony in honor of the top graduates of naval institutes in St. Petersburg.

“The modernization is planned for about ten nuclear submarines of project 971 and 949 at the factory of ‘Zvezdochka’ in Severodvinsk and the factory ‘Zvezdochka’ in the Primorskiy Krai region. It is a thorough modernization, upon completion we will have almost new submarines with the newest armament and ship systems,” elaborated Chirkov as reported by RIA Novosti.

He further added that these nuclear submarines have the capacity for complete modernization. As the technology gets updated and new missiles and torpedoes are released, the modernized submarines will be able to fit the new weapons easily.

So we got stop gap - modernize what we can and go through teething pains with control systems and weaponry. then we can add add supa-dupa V gen hull and et voila!

Russian Strategic Sub Groups to ‘Be Constantly Updated’ – Navy Commander

According to Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief, Russian nuclear strategic submarine groups in the north of the country and on the far-eastern Kamchatka Peninsula will be regularly updated.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Russian nuclear strategic submarine groups in the north of the country and on the far-eastern Kamchatka Peninsula will be regularly updated, Russian Navy Commander-in-Chief, Adm. Viktor Chirkov said Friday.

"Groupings of strategic submarines in the North and in Kamchatka will be constantly updated, so we would be able to meet the ambitious criteria required by the rapid development of science and technology," Chirkov said.

Russian submarine building technologies are unique, and will help maintain proper levels of strategic nuclear force development, he added.

Last week, Chirkov said Russia’s nuclear submarines could guarantee security threat deterrence aimed at the country.

Since early 2014, the Russian Navy has doubled its submarine patrols, according to Chirkov.

Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian submarine fleet was in crisis. Since then, Russia has been modernizing and developing strategic and tactical submarines.

Russia is currently undergoing a $325-billion rearmament program for a 70-percent modernization increase in its military's weaponry by 2020.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150626/1023889188.html#ixzz3eFXBmdyW

George1 wrote:Russian Strategic Sub Groups to ‘Be Constantly Updated’ – Navy Commander

Russia is currently undergoing a $325-billion rearmament program for a 70-percent modernization increase in its military's weaponry by 2020.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150626/1023889188.html#ixzz3eFXBmdyW

I wonder why they never provide real worth of this plan. 90% or so is produced in Russia so PPP works here fine. Then we got almost $700bln

Russia develops new submarine stealth technology

The innovative technology developed by the St. Petersburg-based Krylov State Research Center (KGNTS) will significantly improve stealth characteristics of Russian submarines against sonar detecting sets, chief of the KGNTS hull strength department Valery Shaposhnikov told TASS on Wednesday on the first day of the 7th International Maritime Defence Show (IMDS-2015).

“We have developed the corresponding technology and frameworks for submarine equipment and made them from composite materials,” Shaposhnikov said. According to the scientist, the innovations are currently undergoing tests and “to date, we have considerably advanced.”

“Our innovations make submarines undetectable by underwater detection devices,” he said. The enemy’s sonar will not be able to get a reflected hydro-acoustic signal from the submarine as the composite material is very acoustically transparent .

Sounds Interesting . so russian subs stealth tech is moving ahead of usa's or still trailing ?

Russia's Cutting Edge Submarine Fleet to Receive 'Aircraft Carrier Killer'

Russia plans to expand its nascent high-end submarine fleet with two new fifth generation nuclear-powered watercraft, known only as an "aircraft carrier killer" and an "underwater interceptor" at the moment.

Both submarines are currently under development.

The "aircraft carrier killer" equipped with cruise missiles will be used for defeating coastal and surface targets, specifically aircraft carriers, the head of Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation's state defense order department Anatoly Shlemov told Lenta.ru last week.

The "underwater interceptor" will be tasked with protecting groups of ballistic missile carrying subs and fighting against enemy submarines.
Both submarines will be based on the same class but different in armaments and purposes.

The project run by the Malakhit marine engineering design bureau is part of a large-scale $350 billion military modernization program that Russia is implementing. The program is scheduled to be completed by 2020.

Earlier in June, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, confirmed that Russia's Sevmash shipbuilding company was constructing a fifth-generation nuclear-powered submarine.

"We need low-noise, fast-maneuvering submarines with the highest level of stealthiness and equipped with powerful weapons," he said.

The Russian Navy currently has 60 submarines, about 10 of which are nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, and more than 30 are multipurpose nuclear submarines, with the rest being diesel and special purpose vessels.

By 2020, the Russian Navy is expected to operate a total of eight state-of-the-art Borei-class submarines and seven Yasen-class nuclear-powered attack submarines.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150707/1024313247.html#ixzz3fCGhMvdr

New test system for submarine sounds

Powerful sonar capable of “hearing” fourth generation nuclear submarines lurking in the deep will undergo trials at Russia’s Northern Fleet before the end of this year.

The transmitter/receiver unit of the Batareya (Battery) sonar will be lowered to around 300 meters into the water 30 kilometers from the White Sea coast to pick up submarine sounds and send the date up via a fiber optic cable, said Sergei Tsygankov, one of the new sonar’s designers. “We went for exactly this method of data transmission because not a single Western country now knows how to pick up information traveling through an underwater fiber optic cable,” Sergei added.

Another thing that makes the new sonar so special is that it can single out submarine noise from that of marine creatures, waves, stones, etc.. “Modern submarines are often more silent than the natural soundscape. Still, the Americans prefer to “listen in” during a dead calm, while the Batareya sonar will do the job under any condition,” Sergei Tsygankov emphasized.

Rather than pick up the sounds made by “enemy” subs, the Batareya was designed to test the sound signature of Russia’s own submarines. “This new sonar will give our submarine builders a chance to single out the noisier elements of their craft to make a submarine as quite as possible,” Sergei Tsygankov said.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150707/1024315790.html#ixzz3fCb5285r

George1 wrote:
The "aircraft carrier killer" equipped with cruise missiles will be used for defeating coastal and surface targets, specifically aircraft carriers, the head of Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation's state defense order department Anatoly Shlemov told Lenta.ru last week.

The "underwater interceptor" will be tasked with protecting groups of ballistic missile carrying subs and fighting against enemy submarines.
Both submarines will be based on the same class but different in armaments and purposes.

so they work on a lighter project than Yasen class

kvs wrote:Ah the Toshiba myth.   That's right Soviet engineers could never create NC machinery that could produce the metal part
geometry needed.   Even though the USSR had world leading understanding of the science and applied mathematics of
fluid boundary layers and turbulence.   The USSR could make a world leading propeller design, but couldn't produce it.
What a retarded joke.

I am sorry if it hurt your pride to hear that USSR was lagging in 5-axis machining tools.

It is, however, the truth and milling machines were indeed purchased.

I don't see anything particularly bad about this. The only ones who should be butthurt about it would be Americans who missed the whole deal.

kvs wrote:Ah the Toshiba myth.   That's right Soviet engineers could never create NC machinery that could produce the metal part
geometry needed.   Even though the USSR had world leading understanding of the science and applied mathematics of
fluid boundary layers and turbulence.   The USSR could make a world leading propeller design, but couldn't produce it.
What a retarded joke.  

Anyone who spends any time thinking about this "insurmountable" problem would realize it is the usual NATO quasi-racist
propaganda.    They could produce the right geometry by hand if they had to, down to 0.1 mm.   It's not like they needed 10 million propellers
per month.   This trope is the same one as the "Soviet ICBMs were not accurate".  More pap for uneducated saps who don't
know what laser gyroscopes are and what determines the accuracy of a missile (hint: it ain't much besides the gyroscopes, missiles
aren't sailing ships where the crew performance with the sails and astrolabe matters).   The USSR had good solid state ring laser
gyroscopes as of 1970 (glass-ceramic).  

+1 for the bold part.

Can Russian strategic submarines survive at sea? The fundamental limits of passive acoustics

http://scienceandglobalsecurity.org/archive/sgs04miasnikov.pdf

http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

I realised Eugene Miasnikov article on Noise Level for Akula was comparing the Akula-1 noise level or even at best 971U coz in 1995 the Akula-2 was not really operational and not to mention the Gepard which are given the designation of Akula-3

I think Akula class got some significant noise reduction between Vepr which is Akula-2 and Gepard class , So the figures for Akula might not be so relevant and perhaps we are looking at much quiter sub

Visual characteristics of the combat readiness of naval strategic nuclear forces of Russia

Photos nuclear submarine of strategic purpose (SSBN). 31st submarine division of the Northern Fleet of the Russian Navy (pictures are made in early August 2015). As can easily be seen in the pictures in the base Gadzhiyevo are 5x SSBNs - 4 of project 667BDRM (K-51 "Verkhoturye", K-84 "Yekaterinburg", K-18 "Karelia", K-407 "Novomoskovsk") and the new K-535 "Yury Dolgoruky" Project 955 (till now not to start combat duty). Given the fact that the SSBN K-114 "Tula", Project 667BDRM, is in average repairs at the head office of JSC Zvezdochka "in Severodvinsk, it can be concluded that in the sea on active service at the time of the photo shoot was only one boat in this division, K-117 "Bryansk", Project 667BDRM.

Thus, these images show that 80 deployed strategic delivery vehicles (ballistic missiles) and 352 deployed nuclear warheads (in other words, 15.5% of the total number of carriers and 22.25% in the number of deployed nuclear warheads of the strategic nuclear forces of Russia) were stationary state of the cluster in the form of virtually unprotected in one place. This is a clear example of the level of combat readiness and combat the real value of the whole naval strategic nuclear forces (SSBNs) of Russia, which spent astronomical means. It is obvious that one assured destruction of enemy nuclear warheads 352 Nuclear land-based ballistic missiles RVSN is impossible in principle.

Recall that the US Navy is also in very low estimate readiness and the degree of operational voltage Russian SSBNs - According to our blog, according to Naval Intelligence, the Russian nuclear missile submarines of strategic purpose made in 2012, only five exits on combat patrol that, apparently, it does not allow to maintain the continuity of the combat patrol at least one boat. For comparison, the nuclear missile submarines of the US Navy in 2012, made 28 exits on combat patrol, while in 2012, the sea is constantly on duty was an average of eight nuclear missile submarines of the US Navy.


"Panther" in the company of five SSBNs (the fifth is almost invisible), Hajiyev 01.01-08.08.2015

Now the bad news. It is in the basis of five SSBNs simultaneously suggestive. Assuming that one of the sevenSSBNs is still on combat patrols ("Tula" - repairs to the "star"), KOH our northern groups NSNF is only 0.14 (0.33 instead of desirable or close to the ideal of 0, 5). On the one hand, it may seem not so important: the launch range SLBM R-29RMU2 "Sineva" 11,500 km (Reference 2), to Washington - "only" 6,740 km away, while San Frantsisko- 7950 km, though, that all his ammunition BDRM able to release a "queue" for 3.5 minutes. (14 sec. Between starts, both during the operation of the legendary "hippo-2" in 1991 - Reference 3). E., If the will of the Russian Federation suffered a nuclear attack from the US, 15-20 minutes American ICBMs (at v = 7 km / s). SSBN 31st Division who are on duty, it would be enough to shoot out in answer.

On the other hand, one of the potential aggressor may SSBN patrol (and, most likely, patrols) in the Barents and Norwegian Sea, in which some 500-1000 km from Gadzhiyevo (1.2-2.4 min. Flight SLBM). In this case, 50% of the marine component of the nuclear triad of the Armed Forces will be destroyed by a single warhead purely preventive (in the best case, having to spend no more than half the staff of ammunition). For complacency can certainly look for excuses in the absence of threat period (relying on SVR) and ready in case anything happens quickly out to sea (including medium repairs).


"Karelia" and "Yekaterinburg," Hajiyev, 01.01-08.08.2015


Yury Dolgoruky", Hajiyev 01.01-08.08.2015


"Novomoskovsk" and "Verkhoturye" Hajiyev, 01.01-08.08.2015

George1 wrote:Now the bad news. It is in the basis of five SSBNs simultaneously suggestive. Assuming that one of the sevenSSBNs is still on combat patrols ("Tula" - repairs to the "star"), KOH our northern groups NSNF is only 0.14 (0.33 instead of desirable or close to the ideal of 0, 5). O

Soviet Navy never had an ops tempo of 50%. It was always around 20-25%

Kremlin’s New Sub: Russians Are ‘Far More Innovative’ Than US Ever Was

News that Russia is testing the latest addition to its underwater fleet of war machines, the BS-64 Podmoskovie nuclear submarine, have apparently left western analyst wondering what the watercraft is capable of while on months-long missions in the deep waters of the world ocean.

The BS-64, previously known as K-64, is not a new sub, but a refurbished Project 667BDRM ballistic missile submarine (NATO reporting name: Delta-IV) that spent over 15 years at a repair plant located in the Russian port city of Severodvinsk. Laid down in 1982, it was commissioned four years later and remained in service until 1999.

The Podmoskovie is capable of carrying a crew of 135 people and is armed with 16 R-29RMU Sineva liquid-fueled ballistic missiles. It has been assigned to Russia’s Northern Fleet.The 550-foot sub powered by two nuclear reactors was converted into a vessel designed to conduct scientific research, as well as a carrier for nuclear deep-water stations, including the top secret Losharik sub.

The new section allows the submarine to dock and undock deep-water vessels and houses a compartment for the crew and a research unit.The BS-64 “appears to be part science vessel, part spy ship, part commando transport, and part ‘mothership’ for mini-subs and drones. But no one outside of the Kremlin and the Moscow’s future crew knows for sure,” defense analyst David Axe observed in an article titled “Russia’s Mysterious New Submarine.”

Norman Polmar, an expert focusing on naval and intelligence issues, fueled keen interest for the Podmoskovie by cautioning against underestimatingRussian engineers. “These guys are far more innovative than we ever were,” Axe quoted Polmar as saying. The naval expert who has advised the US government on submarine strategy speaks from experience since he has been to the Russian design bureaus tasked with developing submarines.