Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

Exposed: Russia's Master Plan for Its Next Class of Deadly Submarines

Majumdar and his sensationalist reporting

max steel wrote:Exposed: Russia's Master Plan for Its Next Class of Deadly Submarines

Majumdar and his sensationalist reporting  

I don't think I have seen something more stupid than this

SLBM in a SNA with liquid metal cooled reactors which can't be shut down

This guy is a particular case.

Isos wrote:

max steel wrote:

Majumdar and his sensationalist reporting  

I don't think I have seen something more stupid than this

SLBM in a SNA with liquid metal cooled reactors which can't be shut down

This guy is a particular case.

The problem of freezing coolant is not the drawback of the liquid metal cooled reactor, rather than a problem with one specific, 50 years old designs.

They managed to restart the lyra onshore testbed reactor from frozen, but of course the shutdown happened with direct designer supervision,and the startup as well.

Of course it risking a partial core meltdown if the shut down/start up not done properly.

Additionaly the original design of the lyras was as light as possible, so they had to use the steam-metal steam generator to keep the coolant liquid.


In a new ,updated reacotr design , with modern heat simulation tools and control electornic the reactor should be sent into freezening state, and go back to full power in short notice.




And the most butifull part: the liquid metal fast neutron reactor means a quantum leap in reactor technology ,similar one like the gas trubine in the airplane technology.


A liquid metal cooled reactor mated with direct thermoelectric converter could make a submarine that is extremly quiet.
Compared to that the most up to date nuclear sumarine should be as noisy like an old steam engine .

Of course the efficiency would be not 30% like with the carnot, but only 10-15%, but the coolant can be moved with magnetohydraulic pumps, so you have a nuclear reactor /generator powertrain with no moving parts and no phase changing working medium.

Russia has all design institute of the SU, the ones that made reactors for Rorsat, they have the Topaz as well, both of them was reactor with direct thermoelectric converter. They connected to the grid the BN-800 fast neutron sodium cooled comercial reactor last year, so there is the knowledge/industry to make it works.

Orwell would be astonished by this level of double speak

Russian Subs Are Reheating a Cold War Chokepoint



The recent U.S. promise to fund upgrades to Iceland’s military airfield at Keflavik is no diplomatic bone thrown to a small ally. The improvements will allow the U.S. Navy’s new P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft to keep an eye on Russia’s increasingly active and capable submarine force in a region whose importance is rising with the tensions between Moscow and the West. In short, the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap is back.

During the Cold War, the maritime choke points between Greenland, Iceland, and the UK were key to the defense of Europe. This “GIUK gap” represented the line that Soviet naval forces had to cross in order to reach the Atlantic and stop U.S. forces heading across the sea to reinforce America’s European allies. It was also the area that the Soviet Union’s submarine-based nuclear forces would have to pass as they deployed for their nuclear strike missions. In response, the United States and its northern NATO allies spent considerable time, money, and effort on bolstering anti-submarine warfare capabilities and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance in the region. Maritime patrol aircraft from the UK, Norway, and the U.S.(Navy P-3s, flying from Keflavik) covered the area from above, while nuclear and conventional submarines lurked below the surface. The choke points were also monitored by an advanced network of underwater sensors installed to detect and track Soviet submarines.

But after the Cold War ended, the GIUK gap disappeared from NATO’s maritime mind. U.S. forces left Iceland in 2006, and the UK, facing budget pressures, retired its fleet of maritime patrol aircraft fleet in 2010. (The Netherlands did the same in 2003.) Anti-submarine warfare and the North Atlantic were hardly priorities for an Alliance embroiled in peacekeeping, counter-insurgency, and fighting pirates in far-flung Bosnia, Afghanistan, and the Horn of Africa.

But the term “GIUK gap” is now heard again in NATO circles (and sometimes as GIUK-N gap, to signify the inclusion of the maritime domain around Norway), as it becomes increasingly apparent that Russia is pouring money into its naval forces in general, and its submarine fleet in particular. Moscow is introducing new classes of conventional and nuclear attack submarines, among them the Yasen class and the Kalina class, the latter of which is thought to include air-independent propulsion. AIP, which considerably reduces the noise level of conventional submarines, was until recently seen only in Western navies’ most capable conventional subs. Much of Russia’s investment in its submarine force has been focused on its Northern Fleet, which is based in Murmansk and intended for operations in and around the Arctic, as well as the Atlantic. The Northern Fleet is also the home of Russia’s submarine-based nuclear deterrent.

Russia is believed to be putting these new sub-surface capabilities to the test. The UK, Sweden, and Finland have all launched recent hunts for suspected Russian submarines deep in their territorial waters. Russia has also showed off its new ability to launch land-attack cruise missiles from its submarines; late last year, a sub in the Mediterranean fired Kalibr missiles against targets in Syria.

Russia’s growing sub-surface capabilities are coupled with an apparent political will to use them. Its recently revised maritime strategy emphasizes operations in the Arctic, along with the need for Russian maritime forces to have access to the broader Atlantic Ocean. And that access will have to be, just as during the Cold War, through the GIUK gap.

Now the United States is pivoting back to the region; witness the Obama administration’s recent announcement that it intends to spend part of the proposed 2017 European Reassurance Initiative budget on upgrading facilities at Keflavik.

And the U.S. is not alone. Britain recently announced that it will seek to rebuild its maritime patrol aircraft fleet, probably by buying P-8s from Boeing. Norway is also considering its options for the future of its maritime patrol aircraft, and is also looking to buy a new class of submarines. Norway also recently upgraded its signal intelligence ship with new U.S. sensors, and the ship is primarily intended for operations in the vast maritime spaces of the High North.

The emerging challenge in the North Atlantic should also drive NATO and its members to look hard at regenerating the ability to conduct anti-submarine warfare against a potent adversary. European nations should also take a hard look at its aging maritime patrol aircraft fleet and think about its future. The UK and the Netherlands are not the only countries who let their MPA fleets slip after the end of the Cold War.

While current U.S. and NATO efforts at deterring further Russian aggression may be most visible through ground force deployments, exercises, and pre-positioned equipment in Europe’s east, a mostly unseen contest is also emerging in the North Atlantic. The GIUK gap is back.

artjomh wrote:It had 2 x 650 mm torpedo tubes for 65-76 torpedoes. No 650 mm rocket-torpedoes, only Vodopad (which is 533 mm)

Is the choice of a HWT torpedo dictated exclusively by the type of combat management system (CMS) & its associated torpedo fire-control system? If NOT, can Russia-origin torpedoes be fired from any SSK of non-Russian design? Thank You.

Project 667BDR/Delta III submarines are alive and well

On 5 July 2016, Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets, a Project 66BDR/Delta III class submarine, returned to its base in Vilyuchinsk after a combat patrol.

It is quite remarkable that these submarines are still in service--K-433 Sv. Georgiy Pobedonosets was accepted for service 1980, so it is 36 years old. Even accounting for the fact that she spent most of its service life at a pier, she is an old submarine. The R-29R missiles are getting old too, of course, but they are probably replaced regularly. The Soviet Union produced a lot of SLBMs, so Russia will not run out of missiles for quite some time. We know that there were 4.3 missiles produced for each R-29R launcher, so at some point Russia had almost 1000 missiles of this type. Even though several hundred were probably expended in flight tests over the years, it should be possible to find enough missiles to put on the three Project 667BDR submarines that still remain in service. And they seem to be in good shape - K-223 Podolsk launched its R-29R missile during the exercise in October 2015.

Delta III submarines will probably retire after new Project 955 Borey submarines take their place in the Pacific. But there are plans to keep at least some old submarines in service -- Ryazan has been undergoing overhaul and will return to the fleet in some capacity.

http://russianforces.org/blog/2016/08/project_667bdrdelta_iii_submar.shtml

New schedule for submarine construction

According to an industry source quoted by TASS, the new Project 955 submarine Knyaz Vladimir will be accepted for service in 2018--a year later than planned. Construction of the submarine began in July 2012. The Kazan multipurpose submarine of the Project 885M class will also join the fleet in 2018. Kazan and Knyaz Vladimir are expected to be launched in December 2016 and March 2017 respectively.

Knyaz Vladimir is the fourth submarine of the Project 955 class (it is also often classified as Project 955A). The fifth submarine, Knyaz Oleg, is expected to join the fleet in 2019 (it was laid down in July 2014), the sixth and seventh Generalissimus Suvorov (December 2014) and Imperator Alexander III (December 2015) will follow in 2020. The eighth and final Project 955 Borey submarine (to be laid down in December 2016) is expected to begin service in 2021.

http://russianforces.org/blog/2016/07/new_schedule_for_submarine_con.shtml

Interesting analysis on Russia's Arctic ambitions and capabilities. This article touches on special purpose-built submarines as well as a planned Arctic sonar-net similar to SOSUS

http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-Russia%20seeks%20submarine%20advantage%20in%20Arctic.html

..WTF?

Russia is "turning the Arctic into Russia's own back yard."

Geography lesson for the idiot that wrote that article the Arctic IS Russias back yard... read a fucking atlas.... geez!!!

GarryB wrote:..WTF?

Russia is "turning the Arctic into Russia's own back yard."

Geography lesson for the idiot that wrote that article the Arctic IS Russias back yard... read a fucking atlas.... geez!!!

Gary takes extreme exception to an article's title... As for myself, I'm not bothered by such trivial matters.

Garry takes exception to ignoring western propaganda and just accepting western views as reality.

If you want to ignore it it will never change and actually only get worse...

"Aggressive Russia turning to militarise the Black sea by spending money upgrading their military forces in occupied Crimea"

"Aggressive Russia spending money on military facilities in occupied Japanese islands in northern pacific."

Now they are spending money in their northern territories... the aggressive bastards... but lets ignore that crap because the articles have nice pictures...

Honesroc wrote:Interesting analysis on Russia's Arctic ambitions and capabilities. This article touches on special purpose-built submarines as well as a planned Arctic sonar-net similar to SOSUS

http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-Russia%20seeks%20submarine%20advantage%20in%20Arctic.html

I think the Kilos and the sonar network interrelated.

The kilos are very quiet in electric mode, means they are ideal rocket/torpedo carrier platform, the sonar network gives the targeting information for the long range eqipment, and bingo, a torpedo carrier rocket can kill any ship/submarine in the sonar network.


But in the artic you can't use kilos (but you haven't got surface ships as well) , means that the small reactors feed not only sonars, but torpedo mines as well.


It means that the exclusive economic zone a no go land for any foreign warship/submarine.


It gives a different view for the chinese misland building activity.

The main purpose of the chinese sea islands is to protect and control the underwater sonar system.

GarryB wrote:Garry takes exception to ignoring western propaganda and just accepting western views as reality.

If you want to ignore it it will never change and actually only get worse...

"Aggressive Russia turning to militarise the Black sea by spending money upgrading their military forces in occupied Crimea"

"Aggressive Russia spending money on military facilities in occupied Japanese islands in northern pacific."

Now they are spending money in their northern territories... the aggressive bastards... but lets ignore that crap because the articles have nice pictures...

I agree it's like saying why is US building military bases in Caribbean or UK patrolling the English channel
all the time western media ignores the military resurgence of Japan

In Russia, we created a new sound-absorbing coating for "Boreas" and "Ash"

External noise absorbing coating disperses submarine sonar signal and thus provides protection against anti-enemy

"Tehmash" Concern has launched production of a new special sound-absorbing coating for the fourth-generation submarines, said on Tuesday in the Group.

"New industrial rubber production will ensure the release of special coatings with improved acoustic performance for modern submarine of the fourth generation of boats. Technical plates, which we launched on the basis of the Cheboksary Production Association named after Chapaev, favorably differ from Western models the ability to absorb the acoustic signals of a wide range and high performance" - are reported words of the general director Sergey Rusakov concern.



External noise absorbing coating submarine, in particular sonar signal scatters and thus provides protection against anti enemy forces.

Now several submarines of the fourth generation are in the Russian Navy - a nuclear submarine type "Northwind" and "Ash", as well as non-nuclear "Lada".

https://defence.ru/issledovanie-materialov/v-rossii-sozdali-novoe-zvukopogloschayuschee-pokritie-dlya-boreev-i-yasenei/

Russian submariners to get new escape gear

According to the Navy’s spokesman, the escape equipment will allow working outside a submarine at depths of up to 20 meters

MOSCOW, March 13. /TASS/. The crews of nuclear-powered submarines under construction for the Russian Navy will get the submariner’s improved escape gear, Navy spokesman Igor Dygalo said on Monday.

"The crews of nuclear-powered and diesel-electric submarines will be supplied with the submariner’s improved escape gear designated for the personnel’s individual escape from a stricken submarine from depths of up to 220 meters," Dygalo said.

The submariner’s escape gear has undergone operational evaluation at the Research Institute of Rescue Works and Underwater Technologies of the Navy’s Military Training and Research Center, the spokesman said.

"The submariner’s improved escape gear is planned to be supplied to the crews of nuclear-powered strategic and multipurpose submarines that are under construction for the Russian Navy, as well as to the crews of Project 636.3 diesel-electric submarines, a series of which comprising six underwater cruisers will be built for the Pacific Fleet," the Navy’s spokesman said.

Simultaneously, there are plans to supply the improved escape gear to the crews of submarines already operational with the Russian submarine force.

The submariner’s escape gear comprises an insulating respiratory system and an escape and immersion suit. It can also be supplied with the PP-2 parachute system to brake the submariner’s surfacing and prevent Caisson’s disease (the decompression sickness).

According to the Navy’s spokesman, the escape equipment will allow working outside a submarine at depths of up to 20 meters.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/935227

Future russian SSN, Kashka (according to french spoutnik)

https://fr.sputniknews.com/defense/201703171030506038-forces-sous-marines-russes/

Interesting why Russia doesn't use pump jet propulsion which generate less noise. All modern nuclear submarine use this propulsor. Astute, Virgina, Borey, Le Triomphant.

The Russians have plenty of experience with pump jets... they tested them on a modified Kilo class sub for several years...

But the pump jet generate loss noise than screw. Russia use this propel in project 955. Of course this is more expensive.

Arrow wrote:Interesting why Russia doesn't use pump jet propulsion which generate less noise. All modern nuclear submarine use this propulsor. Astute, Virgina, Borey, Le Triomphant.

Pump jets are a method to avoid the cavitation noise from propellers.
Cavitation noise is inversely proportional to depth at which the submarine sails.

For example:
At a given depth, cavitation noise is generated once the speed reaches a certain level.
At lower depths, the same cavitation noise will start only at higher speeds.
At 500 m depth there is virtually no cavitation noise even at high speeds.

For strategic subs (SSBNs) who have to go to shallow depths to fire their Ballistic Missiles, pump-jets are a good idea (although they penalize performance). Hence, the Russians are equipping their Borey class SSBNs with pump-jets.
Attack submarines (SSNs), usually operate at lower depths where cavitation noise is a much lesser problem. In order not to sacrifice performance, the Russians are staying away from pump-jets in the Yasen class submarines.

TheArmenian wrote:

Arrow wrote:Interesting why Russia doesn't use pump jet propulsion which generate less noise. All modern nuclear submarine use this propulsor. Astute, Virgina, Borey, Le Triomphant.

Pump jets are a method to avoid the cavitation noise from propellers.
Cavitation noise is inversely proportional to depth at which the submarine sails.

For example:
At a given depth, cavitation noise is generated once the speed reaches a certain level.
At lower depths, the same cavitation noise will start only at higher speeds.
At 500 m depth there is virtually no cavitation noise even at high speeds.

For strategic subs (SSBNs) who have to go to shallow depths to fire their Ballistic Missiles, pump-jets are a good idea (although they penalize performance). Hence, the Russians are equipping their Borey class SSBNs with pump-jets.
Attack submarines (SSNs), usually operate at lower depths where cavitation noise is a much lesser problem. In order not to sacrifice performance, the Russians are staying away from pump-jets in the Yasen class submarines.

Pump jet has an optimal speed, above that the prupulsion will generate more noise than without it, and will slow done the submarine.

Additionaly the Russian akula/yassen submariens operating around 1000 meters deep, the others are operating half of this deep.

The only exeption is the Seawolf, that could go as deep as the akulas/yassens.

The Los angeles is inferrior compred to the seawolf/akula/yassen. Only advantage is it is cheaper .

"Russia's naval nuclear forces have nine strategic submarines that provide continuous military patrols in the sea. The Russian Navy is also planning to increase the number of strategic nuclear submarines to 13, including seven 'Boreys' with 'Bulava' missiles," Shoigu said.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201705241053929379-russia-strategic-submarines/

So we have only in service:

5x Oscars
3x Akulas
2x Sierras
1x Victor

11 SSN/SSGNs..

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/372788/227305704.37/0_178a34_6774fb6a_orig

George1 wrote:So we have only in service:

5x Oscars
3x Akulas
2x Sierras
1x Victor

11 SSN/SSGNs..

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/372788/227305704.37/0_178a34_6774fb6a_orig

Are they going to overhaul any others or does everything besides these 11 get scrapped?

PapaDragon wrote:

George1 wrote:So we have only in service:

5x Oscars
3x Akulas
2x Sierras
1x Victor

11 SSN/SSGNs..

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/372788/227305704.37/0_178a34_6774fb6a_orig

Are they going to overhaul any others or does everything besides these 11 get scrapped?

τhe submarines with yellow colour in background are supposed to be in overhaul or in reserve

Pr.671RTMK (NATO Victor III) Obninsk #SSN surfacing in Kola Bay,Barents on 30.7.2017. 1 of 3 that still remain in service.Andrey Borsiovich