MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2

Yes, CAATSA seems to ignore MiG-29s.... it appears their level of stealth allows them to fly under the radar....

No one wants a junk plane that VVS doesn’t want. Who would buy this crap if Russia doesn’t even want it?

They have bought a dozen which are in the process of being delivered for testing and evaluation.

Unlike the US, Russia wants functional working aircraft before they put them in to serial production.

My understanding was they planned for 24 and have ordered 6 which are in the process of being delivered by 2023.

Two have been delivered and four are on their way... then the follow on order will be made.

This F-35 pilot thinks the jet could destroy Russian forces:

The Israelis don't agree and have not decided to test Russian air defences in Syria with them at all.

The F-35 does well against western fighters because there has been no Russian stealth fighter so they are not optimised to find stealthy enemy aircraft the way Russian fighters are designed to.

Things like IRST and wing mounted long wave radar antenna and also long range radar and also IR guided air to air missiles means Russian fighters are much better equipped to fight stealth fighters and their SAMs are too.

The Armys S-300V has been designed to hit enemy warheads from weapons flying at enormous speeds with tiny radar cross sections... the S-300VM also called Antei-2500 for export has been able to hit 0.02 square metre targets travelling at 4.5km/s for decades and the newer S-300V4 currently in service is the upgraded version with improved performance.

You can't solve a new products problems and issues in a lab... you have to get it into service and use it and find out what needs work and what needs to be tweeked to get it working as expected.

Equally for AESA radars you need to put them into production, because bulk production leads to improvements in design and manufacture that make everything more efficient... reducing dud components and increasing production speed and also efficiency with less waste and better performance.

MiG will also be working on their 5th gen fighter option and production of the MiG-35 will inject funds and experience that should dramatically improve the potential performance of their new light 5th gen fighter to perhaps offer a serious contender for the Su-75... which would be good for the Russian Air Force too.

Remember that USAF experience in training with the Indian Air Force was that MiG-21s were dangerous because their smaller size made them harder to deal with... the 29 is obviously not as small but with TVC engines it should be vastly more manouverable and dangerous in a dogfight and yet also able to carry long range weapons that would pose a real threat to any opponent.

RVV-BDs would be a potent weapon against an enemy hoping to coordinate their air power using AWACS platforms, and with that coordination lost the enemy will have to fundamentally change their tactics or leave the battlespace.

Exactly. As you said above, egypt crapped its pants because they believe that they have so much to lose if the US imposes sanctions.

The sanctions don't apply to MiG-35 purchases.

Do you have any proof that the US wouldn't sanction egypt if it bought MiG-35s?

Sanctions so far relate to Su-35s and S-400s... with India the US has complained about Indian purchases of S-400 missiles but no mention of upgrades to MiG-29s at all.

Then that shows that the egyptian government is retarded for believing that the F-15 is a better aircraft and betrayed russia over US trinkets.

Egypt wants long range AAM capacity for its fighters... buying MiG-35s and Su-35s can achieve that but would mean only there new Russian planes will have long range AAMs.

If the threat of Su-35s will get them long range AAMs from the US then they can accept giving up Su-35s in return for the similar F-15s because it means 100 F-16s would also have long range AAMs too.

The Egyptian government is making decisions based on its current situation and its current needs... what else can you expect from them.

If you want to know the Egyptian economy, I can explain to you.

Sounds like Egypt is protecting itself from any backlash that might come from the west, and that makes a lot of sense.

Egypt has to look to its own interests and its own future and should not give that up for Russia or China or the UK or US or France or any country.

They need to do what they think is right and if that means giving up Su-35s then that is up to them to make that choice... they will have a better understanding of the implications of their choices.

Personally I don't think they would have ordered Su-35s if they wanted the US to change its mind... that is too big a commitment and potential relations damaged to play that card... I suspect the US really panicked and made a few desperate offers for which Egypt seems to have frozen the contract, but that does not mean anything is cancelled.

I personally think it is bad that the US has Russian Mig 29 and SU 27 jets.  I think the USSR should have never exported these jets.  I also think that they should have created a Yak export model based on the technology of the Mig 21 delta wing design.  They could have improved it and made it a good fighter.

With computer modelling you could put their dimensions into a computer and come up with a very decent simulation of what they would fly like and how they would handle.

I want to know why didn't the Russian demand that the Warsaw Pact countries in 1989 when the Cold War ended  return all of their military equipment like the Mig 29 and SU 27?  Are there Russian public officials worried that the US purchased Migs from other countries like Moldava and tested them?

Russia sells planes they don't lease them.

East German MiG-29s were extensively tested by HATO and unified German forces quickly got rid of all the East German pilots and used west german pilots as opposing forces type flight groups to test and train against with western fighters... the results were amusing.

I read somewhere that in 1995 the Ukraine gave the US military two SU 27s to practice with.  I am concerned that even if these are export models, the US could learn their flight characteristics.

They could be approximated easily enough with computer models.

On another note why was the Mig 29 defeated in Serbia?

Even if Serbia had F-22s what chance do you think they would have?

A very small number of fighters operating in a small country surrounded by enemy with AWACS platforms flying 24/7 that detect you as soon as you take off and can direct fighter aircraft armed with modern AMRAAM missiles to approach you from your rear so you wont see them coming... they can launch their missiles based on information from those AWACS aircraft hundreds of kms away and you wont know they are coming till they light up their onboard radar seekers and then you are stuffed in your export downgraded MiG-29 whose radar is probably not even working and even if it is you have two R-27Rs and four R-73s if you are lucky but more likely four R-60MKs instead... you wont see the planes launching missiles at you and they will be lining up to take turns to attack you.

Any ground based radar trying to detect targets for you will be hit by anti radiation missiles.

Only by further upgrades, it became more potent and deadly by adding AIM-7 and later AIM-120 medium-range missile.

The F-16 didn't get Sparrows and they are ordinary missiles anyway. An F-16 with Amraams is not some amazing super plane that a MiG-29 can't deal with... A MiG-29M and MiG-35 are as good or better than any F-16 model... all versions of MiG-29s have high offboresight air to air missiles and helmet mounted sights... something the F-16 didn't get till 10 years after the cold war ended.

Although it is capable of using R-27R medium-range missiles it performs badly in the “BVR” (Beyond Visual Range) Mode. Unlike the R-73 (or AA-11 as NATO calls it) the R-27R missiles proved to be inaccurate and unreliable.

The export R-27Rs were inaccurate and unreliable just like the Sparrow, the US equivalent.

But like the Sparrow they were upgraded and unlike the Sparrow the E model upgrades with a much more powerful rocket motor extended their effective range to be greater than contemporary missiles like AMRAAM and Sparrow and the UK copy of Sparrow called Skyflash.

Unlike the flight cell and the basic flight systems of the MiG 29, the Radar system and even the HUD (head up Display) proved to be very unreliable.

The export model was not great and in the case of Serbia there was a lot of real neglect where officers in charge were put on charge for negligence.

The so-called “Repeater” display has been only upgraded with different modes much much later.

So which dial showed IRST and radar information?

Also, Russian jets were designed for WAR. Therefor Production was easy and cheap. That was a huge advantage over western fighters. But maintenance cost was much higher than on similar models.

Actually Russian jets would last a war without needing an overhaul or a lot of maintenance, while western fighters need constant attention and coddling to keep them working.

Only lately the MiG 29 received the upgrades in really needed in the versions like MiG29K and Mig29M and etc. Unfortunately, they came too late in time where no one could beat the overall lifespan price of an F16 and at a time where it had to compete with a truly superior design that was now free for Export after the fall of the Iron curtain: the SU-27

Hahaha... Ask Venezuela and Pakistan and Turkey how free the F-16s are....

The Su-27 had most of the problems of the original MiG-29, but had longer ranged R-27E model missiles from the start.

Even a basic upgrade of MiG-29SMT or Su-27SM fixed most of their early problems and created decent fighters you could buy and operate for a fraction of the price of an F-16... if you were allowed one... lots of countries in the central and south america had to settle for F-5s instead.

The MiG 29 has never really been treated well by the soviet union after they decided in favor of the SU27 Family. It has been treated a nice military toy that you can supply allied nations who also are not competent enough to operate sophisticated systems or couldn't be trusted.

Not at all... it was the numbers plane... the replacement for the MiG-21 and MIG-27 and Su-17 family of frontline fighter bombers.

When the cold war ended Russia had way more planes than it needed and so it retired all single engined models to start with and still had too many planes so most MiG-29s and Su-27s went into storage.

Now that production of heavy 5th gen fighters is underway, they are looking for light 5th gen fighters to make up numbers because an all Su-35/30 fleet is expensive to maintain and operate... they want a lighter fighter that is cheaper to operate to fill the gaps and the MiG-35 might be that aircraft depending on how much it costs and what it can do.

If its promised numbers can be met however the Su-75 would offer very stiff opposition, but then we have not seen anything but a model of MiGs 5th gen light fighter and its twin engined carrier based light fighter that would be used with the Su-57 on carriers in the future.

Then there is also the Soviet doctrine. For a long time, Soviet/Russian built fighter jet pilots could not fire radar-guided missiles without Launch authorization from ground control. Ground control usually guided Mig29 pilots to targets, told them how to maneuver, and when to fire weapons. This was a huge disadvantage.

In peace time no fighter jet pilot is weapons free... authorisation is always required except in cases of self defence.

Ground controllers often had a better understanding of the current air picture than pilots in their aircraft.

Funny thing is that ground based air controllers help Britain win the Battle of Britain.... but now it is a dirty word?

Then there is the extremely short range of the Mig 29 jet. Since it was designed as frontline fighter jet understandable. But even with an external Tank in case of a scramble alert the range was extremely low and the Mig 29 was for nothing else good than for air defense.

They operated near the front line defending their bit of the front line... making them bigger and heavier to extend range would be meaningless when they could use Su-27s if they wanted greater range... greater range just means they might be too far away to be of any use to the ground units they are supposed to be supporting.

Nowadays the Mig29 is basically dead. Russia is not really able to sell it anymore. Its performance, range, max loading and price is not competitive anymore.

So Egypt is buying a ghost, and so are the Russian Air Force?

Russia needs a numbers plane for frontal aviation that is cheaper to operate than Flanker sized fighters... right now that is the MiG-35.

In recent years whenever Russia offered both Mig 29 and SU27 to any country they have chosen the SU27….better performance, better range, better radar, More weapons load and although it is more expensive than the Mig29 its maintenance is cheaper and of course the price /performance ratio put it above the Mig29 and many western jets.

Actually the flanker is more expensive to operate, that is the whole point of the smaller lighter aircraft.

The pitch was that the Flanker has twice the range and 50% more weapons capacity than the MiG-29 so although the Flanker is more expensive to buy and to operate it can cover twice the area so you only need half the number of Flankers so you end up breaking even or saving money.

The problem of course is that two MiG-29s working together are rather more effective than any single aircraft and in modern combat where AWACS and ground based radar provide target information the size of the MiG-29s smaller radar is not such a big deal anymore.

Two MiGs can provide much better coverage than one Flanker simply by actually being in two places at once.

The MiGs offer better coverage of airspace and being cheaper to operate and support.

The Serbian Mig 29 radar itself it to small and underperforming to give it enough situational awareness even in front of the Aircraft. A small Aircraft like an F-16 might only appear on the Mig 29 radar at a range of 40 nm (nautical miles; = 74 km).

The AWACS aircraft directing HATO aircraft would never let the MiG spot the western aircraft so the western planes could fly high and fast and launch their missiles with max energy from as big a distance as possible without using their own radar... it would not matter what fighter the Serbs had they didn't have a chance...

Judging the MiG-29 design based on the performance of improperly maintained export models that had no upgrades vs the entire west including the last remaining superpower is very one eyed and biased and leads to no useful criticisms or constructive information regarding its strengths and weaknesses.

Why not mention tests with west german pilots in the 1990s where the helmet mounted sights and high off bore sight missiles mean that within visual range all HATO planes were slaughtered... 62% of the time the F-16s managed to manouver onto the tails of the German downgraded MiGs with external fuel tanks that limited their performance terribly, but even then the F-16 had already been judged to be killed by a clean missile launch from the MiG with its look and shoot system.

The helmet mounted sight, IRST and Radar could all be used to find targets and could be used to point the seeker of the R-73 directly at a target for an instant lock for a launch.

Which means by the time the Mig 29 is able to track the F16 with its radar it is already in firing range of F-16s armed with Aim-120A/B. To make things even worse the F-16s can fire their AIM-120 A/B and than just turn around and fly away and/or escape a possible incoming R-27R fired from the MiG29.

Yeah, but you are not comparing MiG-29s with F-16s because if you were the F-16 you would be comparing has only sidewinders.

By the time HATO forces were murdering Serbs in the name of democracy those MiG-29s could easily have had an SMT upgrade that would have vastly improved radar and other systems and added R-27ER missiles with much better range and also allowed the use of long range R-27ET and also RVV-AE... the export model of the R-77. It would also have an upgrade ESM suite.

The IRST of the later model MiGs could detect F-16s at rather good ranges passively too.

The MiG 29 can not. Its Medium range missile the R-27R is a so-called SARH missile (Semi-Active Radar Homing). This means that the MiG 29 needs to keep flying into the direction of the target and keep illuminating the target using its radar.

The R-27 family were designed to defeat Sparrow carrying enemy fighters and they even had an anti radiation version that would home in on the pencil beam an F-15 would use to guide Sparrows at long range targets... the R-27ER was designed specifically for the Su-27 to kill F-15s using Sparrows and is totally passive so when an F-15 locked a target and launched a sparrow an R-27EP passive missile could be fired fire and forget to hit the F-15s radar... the Soviet missile has almost double the range of the Sparrow and is much faster and would hit first if both were fired about the same time.

Medium range missiles don't have a great kill record against aware targets, the short range missiles are rather more effective killers and in that regard the F-16 would be dead... which is why they used AWACS aircraft and kept out of reach of serbian fighters...

Not bad for a not properly made down graded export piece of crap really...

So while an F16 can just fly away or taking evasive maneuvers to dodge incoming missiles after firing its own missiles the Mig29 needs to keep flying towards the F-16 with a really low closure rate which in return will dramatically decrease your maximum firing range of your R-27R if not fired yet or probably make your R-27R run out of speed/fuel and detonate in mid-air.

A MiG-29 is faster than an F-16... the R-27R is the missile they used in the 1980s... the new models can use the extended range R-27ER and also the R-77 missiles which seem to be every bit as good as the AMRAAM.

The MiG-35 can use R-37M which was designed to be carried by all their modern new fighters... stealthy and not stealthy.

Add to this the probably generally bad shape of the Serbian air force, inferior training of the pilots, bad maintenance of equipment and you have no other possible outcome than a defeat.

Serbia was surrounded and outnumbered by the richest countries in the world... no other country could have done better and a lot have done a lot worse against the west.

Serbia is no Libya... more like Syria really.

A Mig 29 with an equally trained pilot will perform superior against equally manned F16 when in visual range….but it will never get close enough to utilize its advantages."

So a downgraded export model MiG-29 will beat an F-16 with all the bells and whistles because a helmet mounted sight and an R-73 missile are deadly in the right hands.

If they had long range ramjet powered anti awacs missiles then HATO would have lost a few more planes... but not enough to change the result.

I followed Egyptian media very closely and i don't think the current Gov will sell out Russia

It would not be a sell out to change their minds about an order.

Russia would understand I am sure... obviously they would not be happy but they would understand there is pressure behind this... this is not manipulation... this is not Mistrals...

which afaik isn't considered as potent as the SU-35 in the eyes of the CAATSA gang,

Lucky they are so dumb... people view the MiG-35 as an inferior Su-35, but while it is not as potent or as long ranged as the Su-35 it has very similar performance in most areas and is smaller and lighter and cheaper to buy and to operate... what is not to like?

This is off topic so lets not jump to conclusions, Egypt is laying low for the time being as they also have problems of their own.

I am sure they are just delaying the delivery... if they do cancel then Egypt will pay fees and fines... I hope the US is made to compensate them for that.... maybe Iran will benefit with some new fighters for them to replace their F-14s with...

The things Egypt seems to be doing are all related to getting off that US dollar pillar... whether they are ready to take on CAATSA is another matter... we will see.

Would be good to see Egypt act in its own interests and for other countries to realise that the US is no longer the only option in town now, their brandishing their currency like a weapon is destroying it as the international currency... most countries will be looking at the 300 billion Russia has had frozen and thinking if they piss off the west they could and will do that to us.

Of course the 300 billion was mostly money the west was paying for gas that they insisted gazprom got paid in Euros and US dollars so it went into western banks which could freeze that money.

That is why Russia now demands payment in a Russian bank that must be converted to rubles before it is counted as paid for gas purchases...

Also, it's relevant to note that the Israelis are encouraging the US to provide Egypt with the F-15s because of obvious reasons. The maximum threat that it could possibly pose to an airborne squad of Israeli F-35s is the AIM-120D at 120 kilometers. The Su-35SE scares the daylights out of them because of the R37M should the EAF get it, their AWACs would be wiped out of the sky and they'd be in a lot of trouble. They have no way to counter that, but by the time the AIM-120D is operational in the EAF, the Israelis will most likely have the AIM-260 and have the advantage in range.

The interesting thing is that they could have their cake and eat it too... the MiG-35 is supposed to be able to carry the RVV-BD export version of the R-37M too and its ability to fly to similar altitudes and get to similar speeds as the Su-35 mean it should be able to launch to similar distances against AWACS aircraft that are emitting radar signals... ie very long range passive detection...

Another factor is that the R-37 is a very different missile from the R-33 which was for use against bomber aircraft and could engage large low manouverable targets only, while the R-37 can hit targets pulling 8g...

None were battle ready. All and every plane that flew during the war had malfunctions in equipment. We lost some good pilots and patriots for, strictly, political reasons.

I have an enormous amount of respect for these guys who knew what state their planes were in and that they were surrounded by the enemy who greatly outnumbered them and outspent them in terms of defence budgets by thousands of times... they still got into those planes and took off and tried to meet the enemy to defend their country.

They were fighting the only self proclaimed super power of the time, and they annoyed the piss out of them...

Eventually they begged the Russians to get you guys to sign an agreement and made Russia think it would be a full party to the agreement and then backstabbed them when it was signed.

I hate that Russian troops are fighting and dying but this is for the best for Russia and the rest of the world who don't see the west as representing a future they want to be part of.