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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2

    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:26 pm

    Ukrainian intelligence "lost" Russian MiG-29 fighters located at two military airfields


    The Ukrainian military department has discovered the "disappearance" of Russian multi-role MiG-29 fighter jets taken from two Russian airfields in an unknown direction. The planes reportedly disappeared from the airfield in Millerovo in the Rostov region and from the airfield in Kursk.

    According to Ukrainian intelligence, MiG-29 fighter jets that had been there for a long time disappeared in Millerovo, and MiG-29SMT left in Kursk in an unknown direction. According to Ukrainian sources, it is suggested that the planes were sent for modernization and restoration of technical readiness in order to involve them in a special military operation in Ukraine. It is stated that the Russian Aerospace Forces allegedly lost a large number of combat aircraftfrom the Ukrainian air defense and now intend to replace them with an older model so as not to "ruin" the new equipment.

    It is noted that all the fighters located at these airfields have not been operated for a long time.

    The Russian Ministry of Defense does not comment on the "disappearance" of fighters from airfields, it is possible that they were indeed sent for modernization, although recently there have been no reports of any contracts for the restoration of old aircraft. In principle, the Russian Aerospace Forces are slowly getting rid of already obsolete fighters, replacing them with newer models. But the option of selling restored aircraft somewhere in Africa or somewhere else is not excluded. So let Kyiv continue to look for Russian fighters that suddenly “disappeared” from two airfields.

    https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/203488-ukrainskaja-razvedka-poterjala-nahodivshiesja-na-dvuh-voennyh-ajerodromah-rossijskie-istrebiteli-mig-29.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    NOTE: I haven't a clue nor enough data to form an opinion however it is an interesting note.
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:37 pm

    Mig35 is flying at Zhuhai airshow

    Export sales  ?

    This should be procured for the VKS, it is a good aircraft, lighter, cheaper, and lower RCS then platforms in Ukraine

    Even if the radar is PESA, with Izd 180 missile, and countermeasures like MAWS and DIRCM

    This plane would be a boost to VKS numbers

    It's time to shed the mig29, and the su24, and introduce a new platform which can help in the SMO and future conflicts

    Existing major users:

    Egypt
    India

    Potential users:

    Peru
    Malaysia
    Myanmar
    Argentina

    Waiting to pitch su75 is a bad idea from a business perspective, which is what export is all about

    Su75 won't be introduced until 2030+ despite what fanboys say

    Mig35 should be invested into, and develop a close to 5th generation aircraft NOW, which can be procured and brought into VKS

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:16 pm

    They are dragging their feet with AFAR radar. This plane have limited chance for export with PESA radars in this day and age, when other competitors offer AESA radars.
    As for VKS, they are showing reluctance with this plane for whatever reason they have. Order for 6 or 8 planes was made to show they have it in their arsenal and nudge potential export customers. Are plains from that order even included in VKS force?
    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:34 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:They are dragging their feet with AFAR radar. This plane have limited chance for export with PESA radars in this day and age, when other competitors offer AESA radars.
    As for VKS, they are showing reluctance with this plane for whatever reason they have. Order for 6 or 8 planes was made to  show they have it in their arsenal and nudge potential export customers. Are plains from that order even included in VKS force?

    24 will go to VKS

    And Egypt bought 49 mig29m2 with PESA radars

    Granted CAATSA has created an aversion, even to finalize su35 transfer , but other countries could make such a purchase

    Also they don't have to export the plane to produce for domestic needs

    I think with oil sales to India, they can wean off military export dependence and just procure what they want/need without having to piggy back off export orders
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:47 am

    They are installing AESA radars on their new medium range AAMs... presumably it is already likely fitted to R-37Ms or if it isn't it probably will be and the new article 815s will likely also have them too.

    Producing them in those volumes... not to mention for radar arrays for their new SAM batteries and for Naval ships which all seem to have AESA arrays added... even their tanks are getting AESA radars as are their attack helicopters... I suspect new AESA radars wont be far away or they are not value for money at the moment... but that would change with production volumes and as mentioned more and more platforms are using them so the price should be going down and the quality and performance goes up.
    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:59 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    24 will go to VKS
    How do you figure that? As far as I know, original order for 6 planes was never followed up with another order.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:27 am

    The talk about AESA debate was long over. GaN modules were used for the radar onboard the corvettes and Gorshkov frigates as was pointed out by TR1 back before being banned.

    AESA modules are used for L band radar on the Su-35.

    AESA modules used for Kh band and L band for various radar systems starting with NEBO.

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:57 pm

    Nobody said that Russians don't use AESA. I don't know why are you even implying that.  We are talking exclusively about MiG-35 and it's onboard radar. Indian press was writing, at the time, that main reason plane was disqualified from previous tender was exactly that AESA radar for the plane was not ready. Also, it seems that 6 or 8 planes that Russian army already ordered came with old PESA radar.
    Considering that this model was made primarily for export market,  absence of the AESA is seen as major shortcoming when compared with competitors.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:27 am

    If they are developing new radar technologies it does not make sense to invest a lot of money on a new AESA radar array if an alternative system is almost ready... AESAs are not cheap and the MiG-35 is the more affordable alternative to the Su-35... if they put AESA radars in it and it drives the cost beyond that of the Su-35 then they wont sell MiGs to the Russian AF which is their primary customer.

    Over time mass production of AESA elements will drive down costs to make them affordable and they seem to be producing those elements in significant numbers right now.

    They already tested an early AESA radar in the MiG-35 and then they tested an improved model with rather more elements... getting the aircraft into serial production and service is more important than what radar it is currently fitted with because radars can be changed during an overhaul...

    Of course the other factor would be is there enough engine takeoff electrical power to run all the systems and an AESA radar... you wouldn't want to have to switch between jammers and radar because you can't use both...

    Of course the radar in the MiG-25 and the MiG-31 radars use a lot of power too so it is not like they don't have any experience in those areas.

    The Indians just wanted an excuse to buy the French plane because the purpose from the start was to maintain diversity and upgrade the Mirage 2000s... they were told they couldn't buy M2K production and had to buy Rafales so they created a competition that the M2K would win... if the Rafale were to win they would have to slash the price dramatically because it was a 10.4 billion programme for 126 planes and as we know it was 8 billion for 36 Rafales.

    But of course being French they paid it and didn't complain like the did when the 1.4 billion dollar Russian carrier became a 2.4 billion dollar carrier... 700million of the original price was the air component of MiG-29KRs and Ka-31s and Ka-32s...

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:08 am

    GarryB wrote:If they are developing new radar technologies it does not make sense to invest a lot of money on a new AESA radar array if an alternative system is almost ready... AESAs are not cheap and the MiG-35 is the more affordable alternative to the Su-35... if they put AESA radars in it and it drives the cost beyond that of the Su-35 then they wont sell MiGs to the Russian AF which is their primary customer.

    Over time mass production of AESA elements will drive down costs to make them affordable and they seem to be producing those elements in significant numbers right now.

    They already tested an early AESA radar in the MiG-35 and then they tested an improved model with rather more elements... getting the aircraft into serial production and service is more important than what radar it is currently fitted with because radars can be changed during an overhaul...

    Of course the other factor would be is there enough engine takeoff electrical power to run all the systems and an AESA radar... you wouldn't want to have to switch between jammers and radar because you can't use both...

    Of course the radar in the MiG-25 and the MiG-31 radars use a lot of power too so it is not like they don't have any experience in those areas.

    The Indians just wanted an excuse to buy the French plane because the purpose from the start was to maintain diversity and upgrade the Mirage 2000s... they were told they couldn't buy M2K production and had to buy Rafales so they created a competition that the M2K would win... if the Rafale were to win they would have to slash the price dramatically because it was a 10.4 billion programme for 126 planes and as we know it was 8 billion for 36 Rafales.

    But of course being French they paid it and didn't complain like the did when the 1.4 billion dollar Russian carrier became a 2.4 billion dollar carrier... 700million of the original price was the air component of MiG-29KRs and Ka-31s and Ka-32s...

    Yes, indeed they (Russia) is gonna push Photon radar systems as they expect it to be far more rewarding than what AESA offers now even with GaN.

    MiG-29's with AESA was never really much of an option anyone was interested in. Ultimately, people were interested in the Sukhoi series with or without AESA simply because the power output on the Sukhois are far more impressive than what is on MiG-29's thus the radars used on the Sukhois can provide far output in that regard. With them also being bigger overall with a bigger payload, most saw it as a far better option for multipurpose jets for a be all end all for their rather small airforces. While it isn't ideal in grand scheme of things, it is an affordable method of doing it. Only jet out of them that could give massive improvements with GaAS and GaN modules is the Zaslon radars used on the MiG-31 as the power output on those is massive too.

    Question was always - is it worth it and necessary? Some people think so as they will say a jet is only good if it has AESA without actually understanding the technology nor understanding physics of power input vs power output. But that is something else entirely. Cost vs benefits of course.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:27 am

    The advantages of the GaA AESA radar, especially the first generation ones, over a modern PESA design is debatable. But using GaN on the AESA changes that equation since it is a lot more power efficient.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:39 am

    lancelot wrote:The advantages of the GaA AESA radar, especially the first generation ones, over a modern PESA design is debatable. But using GaN on the AESA changes that equation since it is a lot more power efficient.

    Power efficient yes, but output is overall still reliant on the overall power applied to it.

    So it benefits for everyone making AESA modules to move to GaN as it means less modules needed to provide similar performance needed and thus also means a lot cooler too.

    But it seems importance is in Photonic modules. We shall see how it works out. Russian GaN modules as far back at about 2014 or so was 35W per GaN module. I am unsure what they are at now.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:18 pm

    The MiG-35 isn't popular with any1: https://topcor.ru/29362-mw-pochemu-rossijskie-mig-35-ne-zadejstvovany-na-ukraine.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:30 am

    MW estimates that the MiG-35 requires 80% less maintenance than its predecessor, the MiG-29, but is still less cost-effective than the Su-34, Su-35, and even Su-57, as it has a shorter range, payload, and radar that limit its usefulness in potential warfare. with NATO.

    MW is Military Watch... an American magazine company...

    But if lighter fighters are so useless why does the Checkmate concept even exist?

    The fact is that Russia can't afford an all Flanker sized fighter aircraft fleet and in most conflicts don't need to fly 2,000km round trips for most missions.

    The MiG-35 is 80% cheaper to operate than the MiG-29 which in turn was probably 50% cheaper to operate than the Flanker family aircraft, which is why moving forward it makes sense to fill out your inventory with affordable aircraft.

    The concept of a high and a low fighter is sound and still makes sense.

    The old Su-30 was actually intended as a PVO fighter that would operate with smaller fighters... at the time MiG-29s with their radar turned off... the Su-30 would use its radar and avionics to find targets and the radar and radio silent MiGs operating closer to the target at higher altitude could accelerate to high speed and launch missiles at targets found by the Flanker and then turn back... a retreating target is much harder to hit for the enemy but the launch of the MiGs missiles at speed and altitude maximised their range and launching them from closer to the target means they will reach the target area before any missiles the Su-30 might launch.

    The Su-30 essentially acts as a mini AWACS platform using its superior radar range against enemy air targets... the MiG-29s could set their radar to passive detection mode and get radar reflections from the enemy targets from the Su-30 emissions to get their own information but the Su-30 could transmit target data to the MIGs without giving away their presence or location. The enemy would only know about the Su-30 because it will be using its radar.

    Operational costs means a formation of MiG-35s and a single Su-30 would be much cheaper to operate than a similar formation with Su-35s.

    The extra numbers of aircraft would mean better airspace coverage because both aircraft have similar flight speed.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:19 pm

    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 24 309802
    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #2 - Page 24 309836

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    Post  Kiko Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:08 am

    Russia offered to produce 114 aircraft at the site of the Indian HAL, 02.14.2023.

    The head of UAC Slyusar: Russia has proposed to assemble 114 aircraft based on the MiG-35 at the Indian HAL.

    BANGALORE (India), February 14 - RIA Novosti. Russia, as part of a tender for the supply of 114 light fighters to India, proposes to assemble such aircraft based on the MiG-35 aircraft at the Indian enterprise HAL, said Yury Slyusar, head of the KLA.

    “As for our promising projects, this is a tender for a light fighter, 114 pieces, which is postponed, but remains on the agenda of the Indian Air Force. Here, on the basis of our MiG-35 aircraft, we propose a project. Again, based on a large technological cooperation with India with the local company HAL, on the basis of which we propose to largely produce these 114 aircraft and deliver them to the Indian Armed Forces," he said on the sidelines of the Aero India 2023 aerospace exhibition.

    Earlier, Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation of the Russian Federation, told RIA Novosti that Russia was waiting for India to open a tender for the supply of fighter jets for the country's air force.

    https://ria.ru/20230214/samolety-1851891395.html

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    Post  Kiko Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:55 am

    UAC promised the Russian Aerospace Forces additional MiG-35s, 02.14.2023.

    The head of UAC Slyusar: Russian Aerospace Forces will receive additional MiG-35 fighters in the coming years.

    Additional deliveries of the latest MiG-35 fighters to the Russian Aerospace Forces are planned in the coming years, said Yury Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC, part of Rostec).

    As Slyusar said at the international aerospace exhibition Aero India 2023, six MiG-35s have been delivered so far, including for aerobatic teams, planned deliveries have been completed, additional aircraft are planned in the coming years, TASS reports .

    Recall that in July 2021, the commander of the group, Colonel Sergei Osyaykin, announced that the Swifts aerobatic team was starting the transition to the latest MiG-35 fighters.

    https://vz.ru/news/2023/2/14/1199183.html

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    Post  sepheronx Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:42 pm

    What a waste.

    It's better to just invest the money into more Su-57's and have Mikoyan work hard on modernization and advancements of MiG-31 and its replacement.
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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:49 pm

    I doubt russian air force will buy more of them. The ones they have are for the aerobatic team or testing.

    Let's not forget it also still lacks the AESA radar which was the reason russian AF was considering it back in 2012. But now they have su-57 with a better aesa to invest in.

    The one they test are just mig-29Kr.
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:13 pm

    Well there is the Su-75 project now as well, but who knows when that will be ready

    The Su-57 is a much heavier fighter than the MiG-35 and more expensive. But it's not even ready to replace the Su-35; its technologies are still being tested and the 5th gen engines are not even ready. Without the engines, the RuAF did not consider it as enough of an improvement over the Su-35. Quite possibly the war in the Ukraine might have changed that and increase the priority on stealth in Russian air force operational thinking. But it's still an experimental platform for now.

    However the RuAF needs new air-frames right now, not in several years time.
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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:19 pm

    If mig leaders were smart rnough to make the mig-35 like a su-75 they would be selling it like pancakes.

    Those dumbass just re-engineered a little bit the mig-29Kr which was a little bit re-engineered mig-29M which was a re-engineered old mig-29M which was a multirole mig-29S.

    After the catastrophic results of mig-29 in Midlle east wars as well as in Yougoslavia, it was cristal clear they should have created a new light 5th gen fighters asap. And they had all the tech developed for mig-1.44.

    And frankly, su-30 is cheaper to produce than mig-35 IMO. If they want to increase numbers they will just order more of them.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:11 pm

    If F16, F18 and Eurofighter can still go flying the MiG 29 and Mig 35 have definitely even more potential.

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    Post  marcellogo Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:51 am

    Why MiG-35 s considered an alternative to already existing fighter and not as a complements?
    There was words about increasing the numbers of plane in each airbase to three squadrons anyway: ceasing production of them now would mean to waste all money invested in their own development and didn't use a part of possible production capabilities in a time of war.
    In case there is the possibility of use an existing facility (Sokol plant?) to produce them in a few time let's do it, if not use the resources in another way, simple as that.

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    Post  sepheronx Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:56 am

    I think resources should go to up production, even modernize Sokol plant to produce Sukhoi jets like Su-35's, Su-30's and work towards Su-75. Otherwise, the MiG-35 is just not worth it. Capabilities of it are sub par against modern F-16's and as Isos said, it's main selling feature doesn't exist for it, while the Su-57 has it already in production.

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:27 am

    marcellogo brings up an excellent point; the balanced utilization of production capacities

    KnAAPO has its hands full (Su-35s, Su-57s, Su-75 prototype, SSJs)
    Irkutsk Aviation Plant also has its hands full of orders (Su-30SMs, Yak-130s, MS-21s)
    NAPO probably the same? They're busy with the production of Su-34s, modernization of Su-24s for which there is likely also demand, and are involved in work on UCAVs and production of parts for SSJs
    So that just leaves the Sokol plant in Nizhny Novgorod which I don't think has produced anything serially since the MiG-29Ks. It used to produce Yak-130s before production was transferred to Irkutsk. Else it just modernizes MiG-31s. They should have the spare capacity for producing MiG-35s, and without any massive investment of time or money needed.

    GarryB, Rodion_Romanovic, owais.usmani, Broski and Belisarius like this post


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