Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

I really don't understand how it would take as long as 45 days to make a flat composite panel  
3 days seems about what it should be (give or take certain assumptions about size/layup complexity)

Edit: also there is talk of equipping (some?) future 22800s with Chinese CHD622V20CR diesels https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B518/

Apparently Zvezda is capable of (but I think not actually) producing 10 engines per year atm but its not enough since each ship needs 3.
CHD622V20CR are same as are going into Buyan-M & 2 new ones on a Rubis broke recently.

Rather than Chinese diesels it seems they're starting production of the Zvezda M507 engines at a 2nd factory, KMZ https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0365/

hoom wrote:Rather than Chinese diesels it seems they're starting production of the Zvezda M507 engines at a 2nd factory, KMZ https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0365/

Me wonders if those are gonna compete too?

PJSC "KAMAZ" creates with the Chinese company Weichai Power Co. Ltd. joint venture

PJSC "KAMAZ" creates with the Chinese company Weichai Power Co. Ltd. joint venture (JV) for the production of industrial engines. The shares of partners will be equal - 50:50. The agreement on the creation of the JV "Kamaz Veichai" was signed on September 11, 2018 at the Eastern Economic Forum.

For Tutaevsky plant this project is an access to new markets, confirms the representative of "Kamaz". New motors are suitable for shipbuilding, locomotive building, power generators, heavy-duty special machinery. Motors are planned to be sold in the CIS countries and the Eurasian Economic Union. At the first stage, the main consumers of new products will be shipbuilding plants that produce boats. Preliminary negotiations have already passed, the representative of "Kamaz" specified. The names of the factories he did not disclose.

"If the new venture will produce marine engines, which have all the necessary certificates of the Russian river and maritime registers will be in demand customer ships and meet their technical requirements and performance specifications, the USC is ready to consider this producer as one of the suppliers of relevant equipment," - said the representative of the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/112023/

I really don't understand how it would take as long as 45 days to make a flat composite panel  dunno
3 days seems about what it should be (give or take certain assumptions about size/layup complexity)

Perhaps the panels are not flat, and certain layers need to cure before the next layer can be applied...

I know the main reason the F-22 is so expensive to maintain is to access a avionics bay you have to sand away the stealth material and tape... unscrew the panel and look for the problem... when you have fixed the problem you then screw the panel back on and then apply tape over the joins and the cover the area in a stealth mixture that then takes a day or more to cure before the plane can fly again.... you really don't want to open the wrong panel, or find the problem is something else that needs a few panels open to find the problem...

BTW they tried using Chinese diesels already and found they were not up to standard... they might as well buy below standard Russian models and then work to improve them than keep buying Chinese models and fix them.

Rather than Chinese diesels it seems they're starting production of the Zvezda M507 engines at a 2nd factory, KMZ

Well there you go... it makes rather more sense to expand Russian production... which can be used on exported ships without sanctions problems too.

(Note if Iran decides it wants some of these vessels China might not be happy about Chinese diesels getting them more US sanctions for trading with Iran... whereas Russian companies are probably already on their shit list anyway...)

GarryB wrote:

I really don't understand how it would take as long as 45 days to make a flat composite panel  dunno
3 days seems about what it should be (give or take certain assumptions about size/layup complexity)

Perhaps the panels are not flat, and certain layers need to cure before the next layer can be applied...

I know the main reason the F-22 is so expensive to maintain is to access a avionics bay you have to sand away the stealth material and tape... unscrew the panel and look for the problem... when you have fixed the problem you then screw the panel back on and then apply tape over the joins and the cover the area in a stealth mixture that then takes a day or more to cure before the plane can fly again.... you really don't want to open the wrong panel, or find the problem is something else that needs a few panels open to find the problem...

BTW they tried using Chinese diesels already and found they were not up to standard... they might as well buy below standard Russian models and then work to improve them than keep buying Chinese models and fix them.

Rather than Chinese diesels it seems they're starting production of the Zvezda M507 engines at a 2nd factory, KMZ

Well there you go... it makes rather more sense to expand Russian production... which can be used on exported ships without sanctions problems too.

(Note if Iran decides it wants some of these vessels China might not be happy about Chinese diesels getting them more US sanctions for trading with Iran... whereas Russian companies are probably already on their shit list anyway...)

I am still suspicious concerning quality of chinese diesels. Zvezda 7 row radial diesels are very light and has excellent power to weight ratio, but they have some limitations when cruising on low power! They need to be blown through on high revolutions in regular intervals!

Perhaps the panels are not flat, and certain layers need to cure before the next layer can be applied...

Perhaps you can point to a notably curved superstructure panel on 22800?
There is probably a bit in the main superstructure side but within the flex range of the panel & if they haven't engineered for that they need to go back to composite school.

Not impossible that they have something particularly exotic requiring separate curing but I think unlikely.
Its more likely that the speed up comes from including various bits of reinforcement/holes in the one layup which they had previously been manually adding later.
Possibly computerised fibre cutting, if they've been previously manually doing it with trial & error fitting then that would make a huge speed-up.

I know the main reason the F-22 is so expensive to maintain is to access a avionics bay

Completely different than making a big flat panel thats an integral part of the superstructure.

The first panels were propably made in a small shop/laboratory, like prototypes. Now the demand is higher and they switch to "real" production with more machines/more people.

Uragan (at Kronshtadt?) looks like loading up for missile/gun trials

Transport containers in green and silver. Two different types of missiles?

I presume so, even the US don't launch a full salvo of each type & UKSK is in service with 11 ships already.

I am still suspicious concerning quality of chinese diesels. Zvezda 7 row radial diesels are very light and has excellent power to weight ratio, but they have some limitations when cruising on low power! They need to be blown through on high revolutions in regular intervals!

Look at the link in Hooms post at the top of this page... it includes the below quote about experience with Chinese diesels with four breakdowns already...

In the summer of 2018, a supplier of marine equipment "Marine propulsion systems" ("IPS")offered to equip these MRK Chinese diesels. We are talking about engines CHD622V20 production Henan Diesel Engine Industry Limited (PRC), at least four times out of order on the ships of the Navy and the FSB Border service of Russia.

For example, in early 2018 the problem with Chinese diesel engine at MRK "Vishny Volochek" project 21631 (code "Buyan-M") resulted in the failure to timely transfer vehicle fleet. In late August, the same engine out of order border patrol ship "Flawless" project 22460 (code "Hunter"). Two of the same diesel in 2016 broke the ships built by the shipbuilding firm "Almaz", said Mil.Press FlotProm Director of the shipyard, Ilias mukhutdinov.

https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0365/

Perhaps you can point to a notably curved superstructure panel on 22800?
There is probably a bit in the main superstructure side but within the flex range of the panel & if they haven't engineered for that they need to go back to composite school.

What is a panel? They could be tiny and like house brick size, or they could be the entire structure, or anything in between.

Likely they developed a structure that suited the Navy but now they have worked out a much more efficient way of mass building that structure... which is perfectly normal.

The TT-33 has a small bump on the barrel that locks into a groove... on the prototype it was a small chunk of metal sticking out the side that had to be machined separately... during early production they realised that a complete ring around the barrel would do the same thing so instead of machining a lug on the side of the barrel they just left a ring of metal when the barrel is on the lathe being made and removed one machining step from production.

That sort of thing happens all the time, where a quicker and easier way of doing things is worked out in the factory making it...

Not impossible that they have something particularly exotic requiring separate curing but I think unlikely.
Its more likely that the speed up comes from including various bits of reinforcement/holes in the one layup which they had previously been manually adding later.
Possibly computerised fibre cutting, if they've been previously manually doing it with trial & error fitting then that would make a huge speed-up.

From 45 days to three... that sounds like a curing issue... ie these two pieces need 7 days to cure fully before you can put that layer of resin on and secure the next layer, which also needs to cure for 7 days etc etc... I mean 45 days is a month and a half... are they British workers on a go slow?

Completely different than making a big flat panel thats an integral part of the superstructure.

If the super structure is also stealthy it will have components that need to be cured and sealed... and if it was actually just flat what on earth would make it take 45 days to make?

The first panels were propably made in a small shop/laboratory, like prototypes. Now the demand is higher and they switch to "real" production with more machines/more people.

I think their might be something in the "Custom made" time and "serial production" time difference, as well as possible improvements in materials and resins, as well as equipment like computerised cutting systems...

What may have happened was that they were making them practically by hand and it took 45 days and when word got out they invested money and time and brains in working out how to cut the time down to a minimum... which has clearly made a serious difference.

Of course the custom made design purpose was to see what could be done, whereas serial production is about speed and mass production, so time becomes a factor.

Transport containers in green and silver. Two different types of missiles?

In the Army silver missiles like AT-3s are training missiles, while green missiles are real missiles, but in the navy I have seen mainly silver missile tubes... ie inside the Kirov in the forward section you can see this sort of tube hanging from the deck with S-300 Rif missiles in them... I don't ever remember seeing green tubes...
Perhaps some for training and some real missiles just in case...

Here the containers are also green.

Apparently the first of the Kerch boats is launched in August https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/112204/
No pics though.

I mean 45 days is a month and a half... are they British workers on a go slow?

Exactly.
The context implies they mean the main big superstructure sections, I mean they're pretty big but they are flat.
We're also talking about Komsomolsk-on-Amur which has been super slow building the 20380s (which also have composite superstructure) so it shouldn't be too surprising if they've been doing it low-tech manual style.

On the other hand Su-35 & T-50s are also built in Komsomolsk-on-Amur with plenty of high-tech composite stuff so they have appropriate tech in the area.
If the improvement is just automation then why is it they got the new tech 'developed at' the University rather than 'we bought new equipment'.
Did they build new machines at the University? Could it be cover for a bit of sanction busting import?

Back at Pella


And the other two

The radar on top is missing.

Hole wrote:The radar on top is missing.

Guns and various other equipments too

But also notice that the top two don't have phased array antenna in front of, or behind the ECM antenna down the side just behind the bridge, and that the rear guns are 30mm 6 barrel gun turrets, while on the third vessel, while the upper superstructure is missing there are AESA radar antenna pointing forward and backwards, and the rear gun mount seems to be Palma or Kashtan or similar multigun/missile system...

Remember when ppl gave be stick for suggesting stuff was only temporarily mounted for appearance at launch when I posted this?


This new pic kinda looks like preparation for an inland trip to Black Sea, though I doubt thats whats happening.

the rear gun mount seems to be Palma or Kashtan or similar multigun/missile system...

Its the 3rd boat & thats Pantsir-M.

Very interesting interview with the head designer from Almaz design bureau http://sudostroenie.info/novosti/24362.html
Lots of good details there.

Role, ships to replace in Russian Navy

- Dmitry Evgenievich, why was it decided to create the project small rocket ship 22800?

- The main reason was the stopping of the construction of frigates of the “admiral series” of project 11356 due to the refusal of the Ukrainian side to supply GGTA after the well-known events of spring 2014.

The second reason is the aging of our ship composition. Project 22800 replaced the missile boats of project 1241 "Molinyia" (Tarantul Class) and the small missile ships of the Project 1234 "Gadfly" (Nanuchka-class ). The last "Gadfly" was built in the late 80s of the last century.

Therefore, for such parameters as the main dimensions, displacement, speed, these ships are comparable. They are similar and the main purpose.

- In terms of performance and power plant, what is the difference between "Karakurt" and "Gadfly"?

- In order to accelerate the design on the project 22800, similarly to the project 1234, the domestic power plant based on three M507 diesel engines optimized for increasing the resource was used.

To make the ship as quickly as possible, the installation in its layout was largely borrowed from the "Gadfly".

However, due to the use of a different hull form (on the Gadfly, a planing hull was used, and on Karakurt - bypassing the transitional mode), we managed to improve seaworthiness, habitability, and solve problems associated with a large shaft inclination characteristic of planing hulls. On the "Gadfly" a sufficiently large angle of inclination, which caused great vibration and additional resistance to movement.

On "Karakurt" the angle of inclination of the shafts is within acceptable limits: 5 degrees on the forward engine compartment and 10 degrees on the aft. Accordingly, all the characteristics, both propulsive and vibrational in the new ship are better.

On ship's armament

- What can you tell about the armament of the new ship?

- Now the Caliber complex has become practically the standard for the domestic fleet, including the solution of strategic tasks. Also, the project uses an improved gun AK-176MA. Due to the use of electric drives increased shooting accuracy.

From the 253rd order, being built at the Pella plant, on the second serial project 22800, the Pantsir-M anti-aircraft missile and artillery complex is installed on such ships.

- Pantsir-M will be installed on subsequent ships of this project?

- Yes, on all subsequent ones. So it is supposed, at least.

Status of ships on construction

- At what stage is the head ship "Uragan" now?

- Now the ship completes factory running tests. And I hope that in September-October will be released on the state.

- What is the planned date of delivery of the ship?

- The end of 2018.

- Pella has already launched three small missile ships of Project 22800 - Uragan, Typhoon and Shkval. Will other ships be built at this plant?

- In the workshop is still the fourth - "Burya". Its descent to the water is expected in the autumn.

- On August 22, contracts were signed for the construction of six Small missile ships in the Far East. Will they be different?

- Perhaps there will be some changes in the energy sector. We have now made appropriate study. There is an option with gas turbine engines. In order to ensure a high pace of construction, there are different proposals. We are waiting for the Customer's decision. So far, the plant "Zvezda" in its current state can not provide the necessary pace of manufacturing diesel engines.

Export prospects

- Judging by the exposition of the Army-2018 forum, Karakurt is one of our key export products. The export modification - project 22800E has differences?

- It all depends on the requirements of the customer. If the customer wants to install his radio equipment or intercom systems, the ship will be modified accordingly.

And energy. Surely, they will want to put something of their own. We considered the possibility of installing diesel MTU 20V4000 capacity of 4300 kW. By calculations, the three-shaft installation can provide a somewhat lower speed than with the engines of the "Star", but for ships of such displacement and such striking power of this, for sure, will be enough.

- Armament export version is different?

"Only missiles." Their range is limited to the non-proliferation treaty. In the rest, the export complex "Pantsir" is, the artillery installation is also in the export version.

- What foreign countries show interest in the project 22800E?

- The interest is very big. From the side of traditional partners in military technical cooperation: Vietnam, India. We are counting on the interest of Indonesia, Algeria, the Persian Gulf countries.

On economic cost

- And what about the economic component of the project? Recently, this is an important criterion for the Ministry of Defense in the formation of the state defense order.

- In this regard, it is better to ask the factory employees of Pella, but I can say that the ship turned out to be inexpensive in comparison with the fact that it is building a fleet. The cost was much less than 10 billion rubles.

- This explains the popularity of the ship?

- Of course. TsMKB "Almaz" and the plant "Pella" proved that you can create a warship quickly and inexpensively.

So it will replace Pr.11356 and Tarantul and Nanuchka class ships.

That means it was selected as a combined solution

Thks for adding the translation

Suggestion of 22800 'replacing 11356' has come up before but thats not my reading of it.
Its certainly 'replace aging Tarantul & Nanuchka', but I think 'give us something we can build now since we can't complete 11356' not replace. (even though Yantar didn't end up getting any contracts for 22800)

Couple of bits missed

- When did the creation of the project 22800 begin?

- In 2015. In the beginning of April I was appointed the chief designer of the project and from that moment the main work went: the instructional drawing, graphics, STU.

- Quite short terms ...

"Very tight." A short technical project was ready for a month and a half. This was done in order to obtain the general characteristics of the ship, to determine the main equipment, to develop custom sheets and, most importantly, following the results of the protection, to obtain the good from customers for the continuation of the work. And by the end of 2015 the technical project had already been completely completed. And, accordingly, the first hull drawings and specifications for the Pella shipyard were issued.

In December 2015 the factory workers already had a certain reserve for the hull, and on the 25th the head of the MRK Uragan was laid. Further work was at a very fast pace. We developed the documentation, shipbuilders "Pella" with wheels embodied in the metal conceived. And at the same time they learned how to build warships, because at that time their experience, unfortunately, was limited only to tugs and high-speed boats. To the credit of factory workers, despite the fact that much for them was the first time, they coped.

As a result, it took only three years from the decision to begin construction until the ship was released for testing. In our last story [history], a battle ship was never built so quickly. Even on a similar project "Buyan-M" Zelenodolsk PKB and Zelenodolsk plant worked longer. And then, they had a certain base - already there was a project 21630.

Very short development time though arguably 3yrs to build an 800ton ship is kinda slow even for a first of class...

- Is it too early to talk about modernization of "Karakurta"?

-Why modernize what has turned out well, although, I will not hide it, options are being worked out with another composition of weapons, which allows to expand the combat capabilities of the ship.

- Perhaps, some decisions will be made based on the results of the tests of the head MRK ...

- Maybe. While I can honestly say that as a platform, the ship justifies all our expectations. All that we expected to receive, we received. From the point of view of speed, from the point of view of controllability, seaworthiness. The overclocking characteristics are magnificent. In fact, it is a boat, but a large displacement.

I feel its a bit early to talk too much about seaworthiness since I don't think its even gone as far as Kaliningrad let alone out into proper sea but sounds like basic handling/performance is good.

Curious what alternative weapon loadout might be being considered?
Obviously we've discussed possibilities for dedicated ASW & AA versions here but who knows what they might actually be looking into?

Zircon.
Long-range missile for the Pantsir-M system.

The class was clearly designed as a successor for the Nanuchkas/Tarantuls = anti-ship mission. After the problems with the engines for the Grigorovich class they were seen as the fastest way to getting more Kalibers to the fleet.

Zircon.
Long-range missile for the Pantsir-M system.

They're just new missiles for the existing launchers though, kinda a given they'll get those.
I got the impression he is talking about outright different systems like adding Paket anti-torpedos & a sonar (while presumably losing something else)

Or maybe some drones/underwater vehicles.