Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship

The article said the ship with the Pantsir-M had successfully gone through state tests, so I assume it is fully operational.

Apparently so but they only did the one round of firing tests & not over a long period -> so I wonder how much of the envelope they can have properly tested.

Based on a land based system that is already quite mature and tested in combat... nothing like Redut with brand new missiles being developed on land and sea at about the same time... as well as brand new radars.

Another factor is that this system seems to keep the tracking radar and optics on each mount, but shifts the search functions to the main radars of the ship... which makes a lot of sense... there are four tracking radars around the main island on the Kuznetsov for the Naval TOR system, but no search radars fitted for the system as they will also use the search capacity of the search radars fitted to the ship.

The land based systems are also designed to fire on the move so they will already have the stabilisation systems a ship would be using too...

The whole complex was tested on land

MRK "Karakurt" will become the most versatile ship in the Russian Navy

At the end of November, the Russian Navy entered service with the third in the series, but the first equipped with the Pantsir-M air defense system, the Project 22800 Karakurt small missile ship.

Ten years ago, the "Buyan" type MRK was called the future basis of sea power in the near zone. However, scientific and technological progress has made its own adjustments.

So, relying on the experience of operating the aforementioned ships and using modern technologies, Russian engineers managed to build a new combat ship with similar firepower, but with a smaller displacement. In addition, the creation of "Karakurt" requires a significantly lower budget.

The first two versions of the small missile ship received good striking power, based on the 76-mm cannon and launchers for the Onyx and Caliber. At the same time, their anti-aircraft potential remained rather limited.

As a result, the third in the series of MRK "Odintsov" was equipped with the "Pantsir-M" air defense missile system ("Pantsir-C1 in sea version). But that's not all.

Since the "Karakurt" proved to be an excellent universal platform, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation announced the beginning of the modernization of the project in order to expand its functionality by means of anti-submarine warfare. It is not excluded that we are talking about the latest complex "Answer" , which should go into service with the Navy next year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYFD1L9N93I

Modernisation of the project... does that mean back dating upgrades to already completed ships, or for new ships to come.... I would hope for the sake of standardisation it will be backdated to the two already produced ships as well...

Since the "Karakurt" proved to be an excellent universal platform, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation announced the beginning of the modernization of the project in order to expand its functionality by means of anti-submarine warfare. It is not excluded that we are talking about the latest complex "Answer" , which should go into service with the Navy next year.

Of course Answer is Otvet, which it can carry in its UKSK launch tubes, but what they are obviously talking about is the sonar and other specialist equipment to take advantage of carrying Otvet missiles in its launch tubes.

Any info if the karakurts finally got their engines?

I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

Yugo90 wrote:I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

German

Idiots designed a ship around German engines AFTER 2014...

PapaDragon wrote:

Yugo90 wrote:I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

German

Idiots designed a ship around German engines AFTER 2014...

Karakurt is designed with domestic Zvezda engine. Buyan-M was designed with german engine.

medo wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Yugo90 wrote:I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

German

Idiots designed a ship around German engines AFTER 2014...

Karakurt is designed with domestic Zvezda engine. Buyan-M was designed with german engine.

Unfortunately Zvezda has had some issue increasing production rate for both engines and Gearboxes...

As an example 22350 uses Kolomna engines, Saturn gas turbines and Zvezda reduction gears...

Settle down Joseph... find out what the problem is before demanding attendance at salt mine club events...

Does anyone know what the issues are?

Post soviet era its been ticking along with low-rate reconditioning of the existing engines in the fleet with an ageing staff of craftsmen (many past retirement age already) doing manual production of parts as needed.
Then they got landed with an order for 54 engines (that are each effectively 2 engines) ASAP & stand up a brand new state of the art gearbox design/manufacturing/test plant, oh and you may find issues importing new machine tools and any skilled engineers/workers will be in demand for a whole heap of other projects needed ASAP.

On top of that there seems to have been some extent of poor/inadequate management and/or insufficient govt oversight/management assistance to make sure they were getting up to speed.

Edit: not just stand up a new gearbox design/production plant but also design, prototype, test & start production for about 10 new ship gearboxes ASAP.

It was a real tough ask & to pull it off you'd need a real superstar management team plus at least several key skilled/brilliant production/design guys.

hoom wrote:

Does anyone know what the issues are?

Post soviet era its been ticking along with low-rate reconditioning of the existing engines in the fleet with an ageing staff of craftsmen (many past retirement age already) doing manual production of parts as needed.
Then they got landed with an order for 54 engines (that are each effectively 2 engines) ASAP & stand up a brand new state of the art gearbox design/manufacturing/test plant, oh and you may find issues importing new machine tools and any skilled engineers/workers will be in demand for a whole heap of other projects needed ASAP.

On top of that there seems to have been some extent of poor/inadequate management and/or insufficient govt oversight/management assistance to make sure they were getting up to speed.

Edit: not just stand up a new gearbox design/production plant but also design, prototype, test & start production for about 10 new ship gearboxes ASAP.

It was a real tough ask & to pull it off you'd need a real superstar management team plus at least several key skilled/brilliant production/design guys.

hopefully in the last few years they started hiring again (maybe also some experienced worker from Nikolaev would be good (zorya mashproekt also made gearboxes) and started training new people...

medo wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Yugo90 wrote:I don't understand the original engines were german or ukrainan ?

German

Idiots designed a ship around German engines AFTER 2014...

Karakurt is designed with domestic Zvezda engine. Buyan-M was designed with german engine.

The krauts have perfected this type of engine. China makes exact copies of the German engines for its navy. Russia always seems to make things its own way that works. But if they are struggling, just pull a China and copy it.

Wiki lists Buyan M with Zvezda engine. ?

Buyan & Buyan-M: 2 shaft CODAD, 4 x Zvezda M520, 14,584 shp (10,880 kW) and Kolomna Diesel, Pumpjet.

Maybe this is why they ordered German engines. That's why China did.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

hoom wrote:Rather than Chinese diesels it seems they're starting production of the Zvezda M507 engines at a 2nd factory, KMZ https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0365/

Me wonders if those are gonna compete too?

PJSC "KAMAZ" creates with the Chinese company Weichai Power Co. Ltd. joint venture

PJSC "KAMAZ" creates with the Chinese company Weichai Power Co. Ltd. joint venture (JV) for the production of industrial engines. The shares of partners will be equal - 50:50. The agreement on the creation of the JV "Kamaz Veichai" was signed on September 11, 2018 at the Eastern Economic Forum.

For Tutaevsky plant this project is an access to new markets, confirms the representative of "Kamaz". New motors are suitable for shipbuilding, locomotive building, power generators, heavy-duty special machinery. Motors are planned to be sold in the CIS countries and the Eurasian Economic Union. At the first stage, the main consumers of new products will be shipbuilding plants that produce boats. Preliminary negotiations have already passed, the representative of "Kamaz" specified. The names of the factories he did not disclose.

"If the new venture will produce marine engines, which have all the necessary certificates of the Russian river and maritime registers will be in demand customer ships and meet their technical requirements and performance specifications, the USC is ready to consider this producer as one of the suppliers of relevant equipment," - said the representative of the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/112023/

^

Does anyone know what the issues are?

So the previous management got arrested for embezzement...
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4327650.html

Bit of ass-kicking seems to have got Amur shipyard working & there were some similar actions shortly before 9M96 & Pantsir-M started working properly.

To what extent this sort of stuff is actual cleanup of corruption, finding some scapegoats for actual wider problems or some kind of kleptocrat turf-war I dunno possibly partly all.

Why do karakurts have such a szhizophrenic naming convention? Honestly I miss the soviet naming conventions. Theyre full of soul. It was much better when corvettes were named after weather phenomena, and destroyers and frigates had adjectives for names(Audacious, Steadfast, Fleeting, etc) instead of names of admirals and cities.

They did start out with the weather naming.
Apparently the naming scheme of small towns/suburbs is about trying to encourage enlistment/encourage public buy-in.
Other navies do this sort of thing too but I don't particularly buy it as effective, especially when you boot out great names like the weather names to do it.

hoom wrote:They did start out with the weather naming.
Apparently the naming scheme of small towns/suburbs is about trying to encourage enlistment/encourage public buy-in....

No way this is true because it's the dumbest thing I ever heard and there is no way it could ever work

Just the idea of changing ship's name on such idiotic excuse is hilarious

And if by some chance they actually did it then they are even dumber than movies depict them as

The krauts have perfected this type of engine. China makes exact copies of the German engines for its navy. Russia always seems to make things its own way that works. But if they are struggling, just pull a China and copy it.

They designed and built a ship with an existing engine in mind and that engine happened to be German.

The knew if things went bad that they could buy Chinese versions of the German engine, which they did, but found they were terrible so they went for plan C and are making new engines for themselves.... a bit like the situation with the Mistral ships.

If certain things didn't happen everything would be sweet they would have them in production and service right now, but they didn't and the first backup didn't work either so now it will take time but when it is ready it will be their solution and they can then make as many as they want and export without issues to anyone they please without permission from anyone else.

Not an ideal solution but it is a solution... certainly not the end of the universe as we know it.

The final of this story will be making a whole marine engine branch in Russia complex and competitive.
Two months ago or so, Norway formally blocked R&R from selling its marine engine subdivision in Bergen to a Russian locomotive maker.
They are making the engines just in the size and class needed for smaller warships.
So as you may see, Russians have a plan D, too.
Or even plan E, while there is a joint venture by Kamaz and Weichai settled for construction and production industrial engines with a capacity up to 2000kW. That is slightly less than needed, but it has just begun.

No way this is true because it's the dumbest thing I ever heard and there is no way it could ever work

It is the explanation given on Balancer forums.
Most of the responses were along the line of 'No way this is true because it's the dumbest thing I ever heard and there is no way it could ever work'

The only other plausible explanation I've seen is that they're intentionally choosing names that will be nearly impossible to pronounce for English speakers