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Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

LMFS

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Post n°901

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

LMFS Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:37 am

GarryB wrote:The real problem is that the focus is on profit for the share holders and nothing else... work the workers as hard as you can with as few as you can get away with... pay them minimum wage and expect 100% effort 24/7... who cares about the customer or customer service... keep the chit chat for your own time, no gossip and how many customers can you serve per hour... volume is what counts.

It is easy to fool a boss who has never done the job and doesn't really know what you do, but then you get a paranoid one that thinks you are scamming them and just screwing around most of the day...

Companies with no social conscience and no morality are what are destroying communities and countries...

Of course it is the way of doing business that results in such idiots being selected to positions of responsibility. Dishonest approach needs dishonest implementation. But there are also companies that are actually trying to do things more or less right and get infected too by that totally ridiculous approach because it is the way companies are supposed to be run today

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°902

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Rodion_Romanovic Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:09 am

LMFS wrote:

GarryB wrote:The real problem is that the focus is on profit for the share holders and nothing else... work the workers as hard as you can with as few as you can get away with... pay them minimum wage and expect 100% effort 24/7... who cares about the customer or customer service... keep the chit chat for your own time, no gossip and how many customers can you serve per hour... volume is what counts.

It is easy to fool a boss who has never done the job and doesn't really know what you do, but then you get a paranoid one that thinks you are scamming them and just screwing around most of the day...

Companies with no social conscience and no morality are what are destroying communities and countries...

Of course it is the way of doing business that results in such idiots being selected to positions of responsibility. Dishonest approach needs dishonest implementation. But there are also companies that are actually trying to do things more or less right and get infected too by that totally ridiculous approach because it is the way companies are supposed to be run today

I am quite annoyed also when I hear it by the upper management in a company (that maybe is producing world class engineering products). They say the scope of this company is to produce profit for the shareholders...

Bullshit: the scope of the company should be to produce high quality products, to continue innovating and creating good conditions for the employees, while of course remaining financially viable.

But financially viable does not means that it has to allow shareholders to have short term gains that can impact the future of the company. In some fields having investors that want short term gains means that you have to compromise the future, since the choices you make now will affect the company after 5 or 10 years.

As an example, if you decide to cut the R&D expenses because you make most of the money from after sale support of already existing products, it is possible that in 10 years you'll go bankrupt, because your old products are in the meanwhile obsolete and not anymore used by the customers, and the new products developed in the meanwhile are either non existing or not good enough.

Furthermore, If a good engineer decides to join a company is because he wants to contribute in developing and designing new exciting products, definitely not because he wants those assholes shareholders to buy another yacht with the money stolen from the company.

I believe anyway that strategic companies should not go in private hands, unless we are talking by a brilliant entrepreneur who owns the company and also loves and knows the area in which the company operates.

Finally, I understand the needs for good accountants... they are really important. But we should not let those financial people (that in most cases would just be mediocre accountants with huge ego and no practical skills) rule countries and strategic companies...

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kvs

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Post n°903

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

kvs Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:52 am

OT:

The shareholder BS is now dialed on max. It also includes the "rights" of share holders. I recall some CBC (Canadian state-run media) Radio hack ragging
on a US politician guest for daring to attempt to introduce legislation to hold corporations such as BP and Exxon accountable for mass environmental
damage. This effort, which obviously failed, came in the wake of the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil platform blowout which was related to half-assed work.
The female interviewer raised the loss of stock value from such legislative measures as some sort of wrong doing.

Back in saner times people knew stock markets were casinos and you paids your moneys and tooks your chances. But even 10 years ago we had a new
dogma setting in where stock holders (aka share holders) had "rights".

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GarryB

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Post n°904

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

GarryB Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:12 pm

Money should not be wasted, but there are products and services that should not come down to just money.

Healthcare and education and law enforcement spring immediately to mind, but there are plenty of others.

Look at the criminality involved in waste management.... how many organised crime groups are there getting large amounts of money for recycling stuff that ends up burned or put into the land fill or shipped over seas.

The problem is that the best manager is the one that makes the most money and the things they have to do to make the most money make them total bastards... become one or don't expect to get a job as a manager for long.

When I was a kid most petrol stations were owned by ma and pa operations and they worked fine, but pretty soon it was clear money was to be made and they became less personal and more of a money making franchise where the people working in that fuel station started to get minimum wage... even the ones working in the middle of the night on their own... and with new work contracts if anyone steals petrol and just drives off without paying it comes out of your wages... I have refused to do such work... fuck them...

Big faceless companies coming in using huge work contracts... Burger King was recently fined because their managers have set jobs to do but they are on a salary... to get everything done they work extra hours but are not paid for those extra hours that is just them trying to get all the work they are supposed to get done finished... they use minimum staff numbers which makes things worse... the fine was because a Burger King manager was actually working over 80 hours a week and because of his fixed salary it meant he was working for less than minimum wage. The worker he had making the food were on their normal zero hour contracts... so on any given week they might not get any work at all... the next week they might be working extra hours including Saturday and Sunday but no extra pay... just flat rates... We used to get time and a half and a day in lieu if we had to work on a Sunday... now they are lucky to get that on a public holiday...

These days it is in work contracts that retail workers cannot take any holidays during December or January... things have changed and not in a good way.

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Firebird

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Post n°905

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Firebird Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:48 pm

GarryB wrote:Money should not be wasted, but there are products and services that should not come down to just money.

Healthcare and education and law enforcement spring immediately to mind, but there are plenty of others.

Look at the criminality involved in waste management.... how many organised crime groups are there getting large amounts of money for recycling stuff that ends up burned or put into the land fill or shipped over seas.

The problem is that the best manager is the one that makes the most money and the things they have to do to make the most money make them total bastards... become one or don't expect to get a job as a manager for long.

When I was a kid most petrol stations were owned by ma and pa operations and they worked fine, but pretty soon it was clear money was to be made and they became less personal and more of a money making franchise where the people working in that fuel station started to get minimum wage... even the ones working in the middle of the night on their own... and with new work contracts if anyone steals petrol and just drives off without paying it comes out of your wages... I have refused to do such work... fuck them...

Big faceless companies coming in using huge work contracts... Burger King was recently fined because their managers have set jobs to do but they are on a salary... to get everything done they work extra hours but are not paid for those extra hours that is just them trying to get all the work they are supposed to get done finished... they use minimum staff numbers which makes things worse... the fine was because a Burger King manager was actually working over 80 hours a week and because of his fixed salary it meant he was working for less than minimum wage. The worker he had making the food were on their normal zero hour contracts... so on any given week they might not get any work at all... the next week they might be working extra hours including Saturday and Sunday but no extra pay... just flat rates... We used to get time and a half and a day in lieu if we had to work on a Sunday... now they are lucky to get that on a public holiday...

These days it is in work contracts that retail workers cannot take any holidays during December or January... things have changed and not in a good way.

I remember Burger King 15 yrs ago. They were forcing staff to clock off when it was quiet and have them wait til a customer comes in for 3 minutes and log on then off again. It meant staff were earning about 1/3 rd of minimum wage over a day. I boycotted them and will never, ever ever go back. Shitty food anyway. Companies that do that sort of shit (Monsanto, Natwest, Amazon etc ) should simply be liquidated and their snr staff thrown in jail.

This extreme form of corporativism is basically an ideology of evil. Even hardcore "Conservatives" are having enough of it. Marx said that the middle class would disappear. And with Amazon, Just Eat and the like, you could say he's being proven right. Strangely some billionaires realise that there is a crisis and that "Capitalism" can't survive like this.

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kvs

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Post n°906

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

kvs Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:18 am

The sanctions restrictions on composite materials inputs which affected the MS-21 are in my view a great thing.
The precious NATzO west snookered itself. Not only did it boost Russia's GDP (at the rate of $2 per $1 of imports)
and development of high tech, but they cut off their chance to sabotage the MS-21 by chemically compromising
the composite inputs. The NATzO west is exactly at the level of pulling such dirty tricks. The reason they spread
their endless hate propaganda against Russians and others is to achieve what we saw in this US presidential election.
Fraud for Biden was enabled by "the ends justify the means" mentality of westerners. Stopping Trump with dirty
tricks is morally valid as is sabotaging Russia in every way in their rotten brains.

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GarryB

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Post n°907

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

GarryB Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:07 am

The really delicious thing is that they assume withholding some technology like composite materials or engines or whatever will force the Russians to just give up and surrender and just do as the west demands... but it never does.

What it actually does is force them to look for alternatives which in the short term might be engines from China or other places that are not attached to the west by a chain that can so easily be pulled, but in the medium term they set about developing replacements for themselves... but if they can they don't just replace what they can't have with the same thing... they look at how they can improve the thing and then make it themselves.

Essentially this means they end up making the thing anyway but now it is their product and they can sell it to anyone they please without any western say in the matter, but it also means that in the future any new projects or military uses they might have for the sanctioned engines or composite materials they have their own supplier which encourages them to use this new material or engine more widely because now it is their product.

And the temporary discomfort of having to shift dates and spending a little more on Russian products instead of already established western products teaches them to look to the west less often.

Some things they do need, but even then if they lose access then they can make their own solution work too... I am kinda hoping they get some more sanctions from Biden because for a rest of the world country it seems you go west or you go Russia but you can't go both so you need to be sure Russia can provide everything you need before you can commit to losing access to western stuff despite the strings they attach.

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kvs

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Post n°908

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

kvs Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:36 am

Russia ends up making better products by having to "start from scratch". We saw this with the marine gas turbines that replaced
the Zorya-Stroymash products from Ukraine. The efficiency went up thanks to higher operating temperatures. So Russian companies
don't just copy when they replace imports, they apply innovation. This makes sense, since Russia has the technological and
scientific depth and if you are going to go through the bother of making the product (e.g. engines) yourself, you may as well
as modernize the design. Or even try a whole new approach.

Apparently there is a critical mass for a country which enables domestic generation of technology and real independence.
Russia has this critical mass. Ukraine doesn't. Western deciders assume that Russia is just like Ukraine.

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miketheterrible

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Post n°909

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

miketheterrible Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:51 am

Same with the Vk2500 engines for helicopters.

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Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°910

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:42 am

kvs wrote:Russia ends up making better products by having to "start from scratch". We saw this with the marine gas turbines that replaced
the Zorya-Stroymash products from Ukraine. The efficiency went up thanks to higher operating temperatures. So Russian companies
don't just copy when they replace imports, they apply innovation. This makes sense, since Russia has the technological and
scientific depth and if you are going to go through the bother of making the product (e.g. engines) yourself, you may as well
as modernize the design. Or even try a whole new approach.

Apparently there is a critical mass for a country which enables domestic generation of technology and real independence.
Russia has this critical mass. Ukraine doesn't. Western deciders assume that Russia is just like Ukraine.

Well of course, those were soviet products, not ukrainian products. On the marine engines zorya mashproekt survived after the fall of the soviet union also by providing equipment for russian and indian ships (frigates and destroyers, that were practically codesigned by Russia and with most of the internal systems and weapon system provided by Russia).

And if you think at just the internal orders, you can just compare the needs for the russian navy with those of the ukrainian navy. Just the black sea fleet is much larger than the whole of the Ukrainian navy, and it is the smallest of the 3 big russian fleet. Actually the russian FSB coastal guards has larger ships than the ukrainian navy...

Without Russia, they lost also all the market from countries that used to buy russian products.

E.g. the Antonov planes were always proposed by Russia and presented at their airshows or in the russian pavilions in western airshows... now not anymore... antonov try to participate to western airshows, but everyone knows that they can only bring there some experimental aircraft developed when they received russian money, and that without a large ingestion of funds and equipment and technologies they have no chance to achieve serial production

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LMFS

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Post n°911

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

LMFS Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 am

If you apply those dirty tricks at the right moment, you damage seriously the country, but if you apply them too early you just turn a client into a competitor. The West does not seem even capable to calculate this, blinded as they are with complacency and genuine belief in their own superiority. Add to that the 737-MAX debacle and they are just setting the ideal scenario for the MC-21 to be a success...

GarryB

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Post n°912

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

GarryB Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:16 pm

Actually the fact that they left it too late is their problem... right now or in 2014 having to actually replace Ukrainian products is a pain in the ass but it wont kill any projects except joint projects to actually make Antonovs.

If they had cut them off from everything in the 1990s then having to make everything from scratch would have been a problem... it would be a case of... we can't afford to develop everything for ourselves so we have to decide priorities... which would probably be strategic nuclear weapons first and a few other key areas next, but a lot of their new current technology would never have been developed and they would be in a much worse situation than now.

Fortunately the poison they are feeding Russia to try to control her is being fed in very small doses over a long enough period that the poison will make the patient sick for a while but gradually they are building up an immunity and pretty soon they will be able to poison both drinks with Iocane powder and save the princess... how inconceivable is that... (who gets that reference...)

The irony is that while working with other countries on a civil aircraft project is normally a good idea... it gets top quality components without having to develop them yourself, but it also gets the other country on board as a market and another country supporting your sales drives to sell the product around the place.

The advantage of a western country supplier is wasted because of western bias against Russian planes limiting the number of aircraft sold in that market. The advantage of working with the Chinese however is that the Chinese market itself is huge so even if only Russian customers and Chinese companies show interest that can be enough sales to make it a success.

The bonus is if you can get your military to buy a related version of your aircraft because that expands your market significantly too... and often military contracts can be used for a general upgrade of the aircraft after a few years in service.

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°913

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:33 am

GarryB wrote:Actually the fact that they left it too late is their problem... right now or in 2014 having to actually replace Ukrainian products is a pain in the ass but it wont kill any projects except joint projects to actually make Antonovs.

If they had cut them off from everything in the 1990s then having to make everything from scratch would have been a problem... it would be a case of... we can't afford to develop everything for ourselves so we have to decide priorities... which would probably be strategic nuclear weapons first and a few other key areas next, but a lot of their new current technology would never have been developed and they would be in a much worse situation than now.

Fortunately the poison they are feeding Russia to try to control her is being fed in very small doses over a long enough period that the poison will make the patient sick for a while but gradually they are building up an immunity and pretty soon they will be able to poison both drinks with Iocane powder and save the princess... how inconceivable is that... (who gets that reference...)

The irony is that while working with other countries on a civil aircraft project is normally a good idea... it gets top quality components without having to develop them yourself, but it also gets the other country on board as a market and another country supporting your sales drives to sell the product around the place.

The advantage of a western country supplier is wasted because of western bias against Russian planes limiting the number of aircraft sold in that market. The advantage of working with the Chinese however is that the Chinese market itself is huge so even if only Russian customers and Chinese companies show interest that can be enough sales to make it a success.

The bonus is if you can get your military to buy a related version of your aircraft because that expands your market significantly too... and often military contracts can be used for a general upgrade of the aircraft after a few years in service.

The princess bride Wink

I believe Russia learned quite a bit also by the experience with the upgrades for the PS90 engines done with pratt&withney for the Tu-204 SM and with the foreign cooperation for the superjet. Foreign sales to some potential customers were blocked because of the American content and related sanctions. For sure it pushed Russia to develop modern alternatives independent from the west.

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LMFS

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Post n°914

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

LMFS Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:58 am

The first MC-21-310 aircraft with Russian engines was built in Russia

Russian Civil Aviation: News #3 - Page 37 D4fb77c969ad4689bfff53696e118109

The aircraft will undergo flight tests, according to the press service of Rostec.

Irkut Corporation (part of rostec state Corporation's UAC) has completed the construction of the first prototype MC-21-310 aircraft with Russian PD-14 engines.

On November 6, the aircraft was transferred to the flight test division of the Irkutsk aviation plant from the Assembly shop.

Specialists before the first flight will check the aircraft's systems, test it at different speeds when moving around the airfield, and work out the ground launch of the power plant.

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20201110183-5Ly7D.html

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kvs

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Post n°915

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

kvs Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:17 pm

The main issue for such modifications is the frame resonance characteristics with the new engines. The details pertaining to
coupling the engines with the jet are rather secondary since the PD-14 is not designed to be totally different. But the Devil
is always in the small differences. If the resonance characteristics are poor, they may have to redesign the wing, but I am
hoping that the PD-14 design has been accomplished on a high level with modeling of potential resonance issues with different
potential wing/frame hosts.

Hole

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Post n°916

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Hole Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:22 pm

Russian Civil Aviation: News #3 - Page 37 Ms-21-10

Russian Civil Aviation: News #3 - Page 37 Ms-21-11

Russian Civil Aviation: News #3 - Page 37 Ms-21-12

Already out in the open

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Scorpius

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Post n°917

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Scorpius Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:18 pm

kvs wrote:The main issue for such modifications is the frame resonance characteristics with the new engines. The details pertaining to
coupling the engines with the jet are rather secondary since the PD-14 is not designed to be totally different. But the Devil
is always in the small differences. If the resonance characteristics are poor, they may have to redesign the wing, but I am
hoping that the PD-14 design has been accomplished on a high level with modeling of potential resonance issues with different
potential wing/frame hosts.

The MS-21 was originally designed with the PD-14 engine in mind. It should be the base aircraft for this engine. And yet-we are promised that the first flight with the PD-14 will take place before the end of 2020.

JohninMK

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Post n°918

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

JohninMK Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:04 pm

Headon, with those large cockpit windows, it looks smaller than it is. Good looking aircraft.

kvs

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Post n°919

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

kvs Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:38 pm

Scorpius wrote:

kvs wrote:The main issue for such modifications is the frame resonance characteristics with the new engines. The details pertaining to
coupling the engines with the jet are rather secondary since the PD-14 is not designed to be totally different. But the Devil
is always in the small differences. If the resonance characteristics are poor, they may have to redesign the wing, but I am
hoping that the PD-14 design has been accomplished on a high level with modeling of potential resonance issues with different
potential wing/frame hosts.

The MS-21 was originally designed with the PD-14 engine in mind. It should be the base aircraft for this engine. And yet-we are promised that the first flight with the PD-14 will take place before the end of 2020.

That was therefore a smart move. No investment in western products in ways that are hard to disentangle. All Russian products should be
made with this philosophy.

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PhSt

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Post n°920

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

PhSt Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:03 am

Not sure if its been posted already, but I have a suspicion that some elements of the NATO 5th columnists inside Russia have been activated to sabotage Russia's widebody civil aircraft development. Instances like these should be investigated thoroughly and those making these proposals need to get their backgrounds checked.

Ministry proposes diverting Il-96-400M subsidy to fund other programmes

Russia’s ministry of transport is tabling a legislative proposal to withdraw subsidies intended for the Ilyushin Il-96-400M programme and redirect them to support other areas of the domestic aircraft industry.

The draft legislation follows a meeting on the Russian air transport industry held in May and a presidential directive in June.

It proposes to redistribute federal funds amounting to Rb13.8 billion ($181 million), planned for the Il-96-400M this year.

Just over Rb12 billion of this figure will be put towards other aircraft programmes, adding to Rb4.9 billion in funding previously provided in a December 2019 declaration. The balance of Rb1.78 billion would compensate state lessor GTLK for lower lease rates offered to Sukhoi Superjet 100 operators.

The transport ministry had put forward a suggestion, earlier this year, to allocate Rb7.2 billion to the Il-96-400M plus another Rb4.5 billion for domestic aircraft acquisition.

But the “current lack of a potential operator” for the Il-96-400M, says the draft legislation, presents a risk regarding the subsidy.

The aircraft is a stretched and modernised 386-seat version of the Il-96-300 and a single example is undergoing assembly at the VASO plant in Voronezh.

Documentation accompanying the legislative proposal details the proposed re-allocation of the Rb16.9 billion in funding, which would be put towards 56 aircraft.

These include two Superjet 100s, five L-410s and three Ilyushin Il-114-300s, plus 46 assorted helicopters – a mix of Mil Mi-8s, Mi-38s and Kazan Ansats.

This documentation puts the total funding required for the aircraft and helicopters at Rb31.35 billion, adding that a balance of Rb14.4 billion in extra-budgetary funding will be needed for the acquisitions over the period 2020-23.

It points out that the Il-114-300 and Mi-38 are new types which present additional costs during introduction to operators’ fleets. The proposed financing figures will enable these operators to be offered a “preferential rate” of leasing and support further sales.

Russia’s government has been trying to stimulate domestic aircraft production. Subsidy legislation for the Il-96-400M programme had stated that more than 95% of air transport in Russia was conducted by foreign-built types, and that the number of Russian-built aircraft was “constantly decreasing” – threatening to fall to just 73 by 2025.

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transport/ministry-proposes-diverting-il-96-400m-subsidy-to-fund-other-programmes/140777.article

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°921

Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Rodion_Romanovic Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:15 am

PhSt wrote:
Not sure if its been posted already, but I have a suspicion that some elements of the NATO 5th columnists inside Russia have been activated to sabotage Russia's widebody civil aircraft development. Instances like these should be investigated thoroughly and those making these proposals need to get their backgrounds checked.

Ministry proposes diverting Il-96-400M subsidy to fund other programmes

Russia’s ministry of transport is tabling a legislative proposal to withdraw subsidies intended for the Ilyushin Il-96-400M programme and redirect them to support other areas of the domestic aircraft industry.

The draft legislation follows a meeting on the Russian air transport industry held in May and a presidential directive in June.

It proposes to redistribute federal funds amounting to Rb13.8 billion ($181 million), planned for the Il-96-400M this year.

Just over Rb12 billion of this figure will be put towards other aircraft programmes, adding to Rb4.9 billion in funding previously provided in a December 2019 declaration. The balance of Rb1.78 billion would compensate state lessor GTLK for lower lease rates offered to Sukhoi Superjet 100 operators.

The transport ministry had put forward a suggestion, earlier this year, to allocate Rb7.2 billion to the Il-96-400M plus another Rb4.5 billion for domestic aircraft acquisition.

But the “current lack of a potential operator” for the Il-96-400M, says the draft legislation, presents a risk regarding the subsidy.

The aircraft is a stretched and modernised 386-seat version of the Il-96-300 and a single example is undergoing assembly at the VASO plant in Voronezh.

Documentation accompanying the legislative proposal details the proposed re-allocation of the Rb16.9 billion in funding, which would be put towards 56 aircraft.

These include two Superjet 100s, five L-410s and three Ilyushin Il-114-300s, plus 46 assorted helicopters – a mix of Mil Mi-8s, Mi-38s and Kazan Ansats.

This documentation puts the total funding required for the aircraft and helicopters at Rb31.35 billion, adding that a balance of Rb14.4 billion in extra-budgetary funding will be needed for the acquisitions over the period 2020-23.

It points out that the Il-114-300 and Mi-38 are new types which present additional costs during introduction to operators’ fleets. The proposed financing figures will enable these operators to be offered a “preferential rate” of leasing and support further sales.

Russia’s government has been trying to stimulate domestic aircraft production. Subsidy legislation for the Il-96-400M programme had stated that more than 95% of air transport in Russia was conducted by foreign-built types, and that the number of Russian-built aircraft was “constantly decreasing” – threatening to fall to just 73 by 2025.

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transport/ministry-proposes-diverting-il-96-400m-subsidy-to-fund-other-programmes/140777.article

Well the article is from the 23rd of october.

The ministry of transport has been replaced this week.

3 days ago the former CEO of aeroflot has been nominated as the new minister.

Maybe the replacement had something to do with this?

It almost seemed like an attempted sabotage of the industry, with the excuse of saving money and directing towards other projects...

GarryB, flamming_python, kvs and Kiko like this post

Maximmmm