IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1

Lothar von Trotha wrote:Nothing is laid down in front of me. If it was, I would believe too. But I believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. The claim that USA support ISIS is a mighty claim - and therefore evidence supporting it must be absolutely undeniable. To understand what I mean, look at court documents in common criminal cases - they often take hundreds of pages.

But I doubt you'll bother because you simply redefined the word "support" in a way that suits your strange agenda. In the entire war in Syria there is a broad array of groups. Some estimates put the number of armed Sunni groups in Syria at several hundred, even the largest ones like FSA or IF are just loose confederations of smaller groups. Most of them are actually hostile to IS and IS considers all of them as apostates, maybe except Nusra. These rebels actually fought a bloody battle with IS in Deir Ezzor, list 2500 killer and were expelled from there.

But all of that does not matter to you. They are all ISIS. Even if they do not know about it, they still are.

I do not want US influence in Europe or the Middle East - but I am not a nutcase that simply picks up whatever makes US look bad. I have studied ME history and religion (having read approx. 100 books about it) and I know that foreign interference is not the biggest enemy of Middle Easterners. They are their own enemies. Their mentality worka against them, their social structure works against them and their religion worka against them.

These people must change. They must destroy the walls of hatred they built around themselves - stop seeing each other as Sunnis and Shias, Arabs and Kurds, believers and disbelievers or members of tribe this or that. They must start seeing each other as humans - first and foremost. Only this will stop the bloodshed.

Ohh yes "court documents" maybe you want american courts to do that, because they are so trustworthy, right?

@Lothar: I respect your desire for more solid evidences but the problem here is, the U.S. goverment and its siblings in Western Europe has a tremendous history of supporting criminals and bullshits over this world. Hitler, CONTRA, Somoza, Mobutu, Al-Qaeda, Taliban,... and the fact is that IS's crimes used to be overlooked by the West simply because they are anti-Assad.

Before White House made its annoying appreance, at least Irak had a strong centralized goverment to keep things in order and prevent religous sects for shiting over... and instead of trully solving the problem in Syria the White House actually made thing more messy to serve its benefits. It is clear that the White House doesn't f*cking care of democracy or freedom in Syria.

So for me I am not surprised if ISIS is still receiving stuff from White House or its vassals.

higurashihougi wrote:@Lothar: I respect your desire for more solid evidences but the problem here is, the U.S. goverment and its siblings in Western Europe has a tremendous history of supporting criminals and bullshits over this world. Hitler, CONTRA, Somoza, Mobutu, Al-Qaeda, Taliban,... and the fact is that IS's crimes used to be overlooked by the West simply because they are anti-Assad.

Before White House made its annoying appreance, at least Irak had a strong centralized goverment to keep things in order and prevent religous sects for shiting over... and instead of trully solving the problem in Syria the White House actually made thing more messy to serve its benefits. It is clear that the White House doesn't f*cking care of democracy or freedom in Syria.

So for me I am not surprised if ISIS is still receiving stuff from White House or its vassals.

A picture is worth a thousand words:




...Nothing more ridiculous than Islamic extremists visiting the white house.

Pssshh, or he puts you on ignorelist, our genius.

A US helicopter that looks suspiciously identical to a Mi-8.

Yeah... the CIA would of course use a Blackhawk painted black with US markings on it to deliver weapons.

Revealing such involvement would easily cause the biggest political scandal in the history of mankind and destroy US position for decades to come - a handful of countries would be very happy to see that.

You mean like finding no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq... being wrong doesn't seem to stop them...

BTW Which western media outlet will carry the story?

But I believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

What extraordinary claims?

US officials are on record as saying the US does not have friends it has interests.

US officials are known to play enemies off against each other citing the very flawed logic that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

As long as ISIS was fighting in Syria I would suggest it is logical to assume they got funding and support from the US and the west.... just the same as the US and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia supported anyone in Afghanistan who was happy to fire upon Soviet soldiers.

The claim that USA support ISIS is a mighty claim - and therefore evidence supporting it must be absolutely undeniable.

You mean like the overwhelming evidence that Iran is making nuclear weapons, or Iraq had WMDS ready for deployment that could be used within 45 minutes, or that Saddam was behind the 11/9 attacks?

Or how about Russia is supporting separatist rebels in the Ukraine?

You don't need proof of anything any more... just keep repeating it over and over and it becomes true.

I have studied ME history and religion (having read approx. 100 books about it) and I know that foreign interference is not the biggest enemy of Middle Easterners. They are their own enemies. Their mentality worka against them, their social structure works against them and their religion worka against them.

You mean them damn natives don't know how to make a good cup of tea and the west has been wasting its time trying to bring civilisation to those damn apes.

Perhaps I can suggest you read some books by authors who don't earn their living in the west trying to work out reasons why the British Museum should not return property to the countries that own it just because white people are so much better at looking after the resources of all those backward countries...

Do any of those books you have read investigate how the western countries have exploited those social structures and religions... why are the countries split the way they are... those lines on the map there seem to divide the region by oil field rather than by ethnic division... funny how that works.

The royal families that so brutally keep the peace in Saudi Arabia and Quatar and indeed UAE are western creations that can trace their royal roots to the 1920s when France and the UK created them... was that in those books you have read?

These people must change. They must destroy the walls of hatred they built around themselves - stop seeing each other as Sunnis and Shias, Arabs and Kurds, believers and disbelievers or members of tribe this or that. They must start seeing each other as humans - first and foremost. Only this will stop the bloodshed.

Yeah, if only they were as civilised as us white people... damn natives.

I mean they have beliefs and morals and standards that they don't bend or ignore like the US does...

Before White House made its annoying appreance, at least Irak had a strong centralized goverment to keep things in order and prevent religous sects for shiting over... and instead of trully solving the problem in Syria the White House actually made thing more messy to serve its benefits. It is clear that the White House doesn't f*cking care of democracy or freedom in Syria.

So for me I am not surprised if ISIS is still receiving stuff from White House or its vassals.

Actually I suspect there were many in Washington who wanted ISIS to invade Iraq because with shia muslims in the majority and in government suddenly the influence in the country stops being Sunni Saudi Arabia and starts being Shia Iran and there is no way the US wants good relations between Iraq and Iran.

Remember in the early stages of the ISIS attacks in Iraq when the US was demanding changes in Iraqi government to make it more "democratic" and representative before it would offer material support for the fight against ISIS... do you think that might have been an attempt to get more stooges into the Iraqi government to ensure relations with Iran were not so good.

It is not the Arabs and Persians that need to get over their bigotry... the whole arab spring has been about moderate Shia governments being overthrown by militant sunni groups supported by Saudi arabia and other nut states with the support of the west because thinking moderate peaceful gulf states don't generate money... war generates money.

Hahahahaha... hilarious... you demand proof and then put him on your ignore list so when he posts some proof you never see it... if you want to keep your head in the sand that is fine, but please don't discuss anything with me as you are clearly not open to any view other than your own...

Only ignorants put people on ignore list, stupid and proud of it...

Garry, I have read books written by various authors, including ca. 40 books about sharia law. I know jihadi mindset like the back of my hand. And based on what I've read, I can draw conclusions.

There are lots of countries that are openly anti American - China and Russia are. India and Brazil are quite neutral. All of them are politically stable and prosperous. There are wars in the Middle East because that region is inherently more unstable than others. And that is partly caused by its history and partly by religion.

I suggest you watch Sisi's speech at Al Azhar university. This is the mindset I would like to see in all Arab leaders - instead of usual blaming America for everything, he actually admitted "yes, we are wrong, we must change". He said it in a very subtle way but his message remains clear. Just watch:

Magnumcromagnon, US support for Afghan militias does not prove that US support ISIS. I did not write "Taliban" because there was no organized Taliban movement in the 1980s. Afghan mujahideen consisted of several hundred tribal militias, often as  hostile to each other as to the communists. Most were no more religious than an average peasant.

There are several rebel groups in Syria that are anti-Assad - FSA and Islamic Front are good examples. They are more reliable and there is more control over them than over ISIS.

Garry, I have read books written by various authors, including ca. 40 books about sharia law. I know jihadi mindset like the back of my hand. And based on what I've read, I can draw conclusions.

So you have read the Sunni nut job books and I presume the "western experts", which leaves the arab moderates that you don't know about... which makes sense because you clearly think there are only extremists there... but then who are ISIS actually fighting?

They will be getting their funding from the same old sources... before the US and the west flip flopped again and changed sides I don't doubt they helped them any way they could in their fight against Assad, but their main support probably came from the rich sunni states like Saudi Arabia and Qatar and UAE etc etc.

There are lots of countries that are openly anti American - China and Russia are.

Bullshit.

Russia and China are not anti American. They simply do what suits their interests and don't jump when the US demands. If China was anti American they could have bankrupted that fucked up country a decade ago... they have been buying US debt and hold large amounts of it... if they suddenly wanted to hurt the US they could have easily demanded payment.

The simply fact is that both Russia and China see the US as a big market and a big player in world affairs... what they don't see is the US as a friend or a partner to trust.

The US sees potential rival states that don't do as they are told like Europe does as it is told.

There are wars in the Middle East because that region is inherently more unstable than others.

The US has invaded and occupied more countries than all the Arab countries combined in the last 20 years... but it is arabs that are the problem right... is it because they are not white, or just uncivilised?

This is the mindset I would like to see in all Arab leaders - instead of usual blaming America for everything, he actually admitted "yes, we are wrong, we must change". He said it in a very subtle way but his message remains clear.

Hahahahahaha... you are freakin joking right?

How many countries in Europe or Africa or central or south america have arab countries invaded in the last two decades?

How many countries has the US not intervened either with military force or CIA interference in the democratic process... ie murder, bribes, NGOs etc etc... WTF is the point of Islam sorting its shit out when the US can overthrow that moderate government and install some nut jobs... of which it seems to have an endless supply.

The west directly got involved in Libya and Syria and Egypt and really only Egypt has survived... it was clearly not because of the US that Libya is now a sht hole... obviously it is the fault of Islam.

There are several rebel groups in Syria that are anti-Assad - FSA and Islamic Front are good examples. They are more reliable and there is more control over them than over ISIS.

None of them could control the whole country on their own, so even if they "won" there would be chaos like in Libya. The best solution would be external actors stop supplying and supporting the opposition and let Assads forces crush it and let the country return to what they had before which is vastly superior to what they have now or would be likely to have if the rebels win.

The sad fact is that the US doesn't give a fuck about the people of Syria.... only American citizens have rights. The US is haemorrhaging money they don't have to encourage any state that is friendly to Iran or Russia to over throw their government and become a US lackey. Just look at their success in Haiti.

If you have a low opinion of Arab governments... and Most are not ideal in white westerners eyes I agree, then direct those same eyes at the US government and judge them by the same standards in terms of threat to the world and upholding democratic ideals and it is pretty clear... well no it wont be when you read the western view of saving the savages, when in actual fact it is exploiting every one and anyone....

Anyway, I want the whole ME - including KSA - to adopt secular law and secular values as a part of its identity. I want Saudis, Iranians and Egyptians to be atheist like East Germans (the most irreligious people on earth)

GarryB wrote:The west directly got involved in Libya and Syria and Egypt and really only Egypt has survived... it was clearly not because of the US that Libya is now a sht hole... obviously it is the fault of Islam.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes, it is the fault of Muslim extremist which are born, feed, supported and encouraged by the White House.

The U.S,. disrupted stability in the Middle East and created/facilitated turmoil... which is a good environment for Muslim extremists to rise and created more turmoil... so on and so forth.

And then Washington DC stepped in and played the role of a "good guy".

Lothar von Trotha wrote:Anyway, I want the whole ME - including KSA - to adopt secular law and secular values as a part of its identity. I want Saudis, Iranians and Egyptians to be atheist like East Germans (the most irreligious people on earth)

I don't want to be offense but let's mention about Lee Jang Rim, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Pat Roberson, Mormon, JVH Witness, Ken Ham or 40-48% people of a certain poll who believed that the Earth is 6000 yrs old...

Lothar von Trotha wrote:Anyway, I want the whole ME - including KSA - to adopt secular law and secular values as a part of its identity. I want Saudis, Iranians and Egyptians to be atheist like East Germans (the most irreligious people on earth)

Who the fuck are you to tell entire countries what laws or what values they have to adopt?

People like you, foreigners that come to some other country with different culture and religion and demand them to adopt your crazy lunatic views and values, you know how such people are called? Terrorists. You are a terrorist, because we know what such idiots do, if they don't adopt on their own, such terrorists like you come and bring "democracy".

I want nothing but good for these people. And I think we don't do enough. Wouldn't it be better if Saudi Arabia turned into a secular republic or at least a secular constitutional monarchy?

Well, things are slowly changing in KSA. Raif Badawi was recently charged for apostasy and insulting Islam (over running a liberal blog) and he was sentenced "only" to 1000 lashes. If it happened 10 years ago, he would be executed. But liberalization of KSA will be a long and painful process and we cannot be sure if the course will not be reversed at some point of time.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:Garry, I have read books written by various authors, including ca. 40 books about sharia law.

I won't judge you, even less despising what you think. Nevertheless, to understand Islamic religion is not more easy than you could believe. Reading koran is not enough. There are various of books availlable in Western countries, however, if a book is known, this book must be promote, hence, the system is behind. In France for example, the system is completly locked, because you could only published your book by editors -compliant with the system-, and distributed, availlable for clients in areas as stores -compliants with the system-. If a book is not compliant with the system, this book will find hardly clients. Hence you have a very limited choice -even though you can find dozens books on a same subject-, nevertheless, I know that in US you have more freedom, and you could find more choice, but you will have to search very hard. It is not because you read 40 books about whatever the subject you think -except for medecin, Mathematic, Science, etc...- you necessarily understand the subject, you understand under the prism imposed by the system. In short the system is completly locked in France as in Germany. In fact, during the soviet era you have one media that said one unic opinion, on the opposite, nowadays, in the west, you have several medias that propagate one unic opinion. Attention! I did not mean you are ignorant, reading these books prove a very courageous and true inteellectual stance. I think you are really envie to understand the world around you, it is absolutly respectable.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:
I know jihadi mindset like the back of my hand.

Really ?

Lothar von Trotha wrote:
And based on what I've read, I can draw conclusions.

Conclusions taken under the prism of the system ultra-liberal.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:
There are lots of countries that are openly anti American - China and Russia are....

China, Russia are not anti american, I've never known someone untill now that is anti-american. But, anti-Goldman Sachs, yes -Iam the first-, anti-Rothschild Banks yes -iam too, i think you too ?-, anti-Monsanto yes, anti-Hollywood yes, anti-Loockeed, etc... we are all against this barbaric system.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:
India and Brazil are quite neutral.

Less now. Their stances are more and more changing, because they are promoting their own interrests.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:
There are wars in the Middle East because that region is inherently more unstable than others. And that is partly caused by its history and partly by religion.

It is not false but, it is a very small part of a rational explanation, in a not far past, there were men that tried to stabilze their country, each attempts to modernize the way of life of average citizen , improving the situation by for example to nationalize their own wealths had met a storng opposition from imperialists countries. To understand a region, it is not easy.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:
I suggest you watch Sisi's speech at Al Azhar university. This is the mindset I would like to see in all Arab leaders ...yes, we are wrong, we must change...

Well, Sissi is a true bullshit, he is the first compliant of US world order, and has none legitimity to speak. This mindset represent nothing else than what Israel-US want, because there is their interrests.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:
...instead of usual blaming America for everything,...

U seem to not understand the problem. The main world troubles, not only in middle east, but in the world wide come from US. America wants to keep its hegemony intact, and the countries that are not compliants to this barbaric view are  immediatly destabilized.

In short religion is small part of the problem, the problem is imperialism stance.

Lothar von Trotha wrote:I want nothing but good for these people. And I think we don't do enough. Wouldn't it be better if Saudi Arabia turned into a secular republic or at least a secular constitutional monarchy?

Well, things are slowly changing in KSA. Raif Badawi was recently charged for apostasy and insulting Islam (over running a liberal blog) and he was sentenced "only" to 1000 lashes. If it happened 10 years ago, he would be executed. But liberalization of KSA will be a long and painful process and we cannot be sure if the course will not be reversed at some point of time.

Middle East is the most blalant example of religious ridiculousness, but the White House is the biggest and most dangerous god-monger in this world.

The zionist and religous mongers in the U.S. are rampaging the educational system... blabbering about "creation science" which I describe as total bullshit and megalomania.

Because the religitards in ME are so blalant, you can easily recognize them and therefore they are less dangerous than the shitholes who are destroying the U.S. educational system and sending them into meaningless bloodshed.

And that fact cannot disprove the very truth about the crimes of the White House towards the US citizen and to the ME inhabitants. No, the White House does not desire democracy. And it gives no democracy to the Middle East.

Saudi Arabia is a blalant example of dictatorship and theocracy. But why United States does nothing ?

Lothar von Trotha wrote:I want nothing but good for these people. And I think we don't do enough. Wouldn't it be better if Saudi Arabia turned into a secular republic or at least a secular constitutional monarchy?

Well, things are slowly changing in KSA. Raif Badawi was recently charged for apostasy and insulting Islam (over running a liberal blog) and he was sentenced "only" to 1000 lashes. If it happened 10 years ago, he would be executed. But liberalization of KSA will be a long and painful process and we cannot be sure if the course will not be reversed at some point of time.

Yes sure, just like americunts, who want the best for everyone the globe, going there bringing democracy and freedom, destroying their country, building military bases, deciding which laws they have (pro america always)...sure true anglo SUCKson you are, supremacy is in your blood like it seems.

Looking at the current Iraqi offensive on Tikrit I say they should learn from the Battle of Grozny 1999. They have not requested any coalition airstrikes in Tikrit therefor the coalition did nothing yet but provide recon intel. Currently they're closing in on the center of Tikrit imposing a siege on the city, instead of losing over 1000 fighters they should bombard it with artillery and request coalition airstrikes.

wikipedia Grozny wrote:The Russian strategy in 1999 was to hold back tanks and armored personnel carriers and subject the entrenched Chechens to an intensive heavy artillery barrage and aerial bombardment before engaging them with relatively small groups of infantry, many with prior training in urban warfare. The Russian forces relied heavily on ballistic missiles (SCUD, OTR-21 Tochka) and fuel air explosives. (The TOS-1, a multiple rocket launcher with thermobaric weapon warheads, played a particularly prominent role in the assault). These weapons wore down the Chechens, both physically and psychologically, and air strikes were also used to attack fighters hiding in basements; such attacks were designed for maximum psychological pressure.

Anyway, I want the whole ME - including KSA - to adopt secular law and secular values as a part of its identity. I want Saudis, Iranians and Egyptians to be atheist like East Germans (the most irreligious people on earth)

Unfortunately the west does not.

It is useful to the west to have dictators in power... no need for voting or fair competition for contracts... there is no chance of an election undoing all that hard work and having to reapply for contracts when the opposition gets into power.

The west could care less about democracy or peace in the region... in fact a few conflicts are good for sales as long as no side dominates enough to start undoing all those lines and creating larger arab states that might risk monopoly of oil resources...

The world didn't intervene against Iraq because it invaded Kuwaite... it was the potential for that invasion of Saudi Arabia that created the problem...

I want nothing but good for these people. And I think we don't do enough.

I would say the opposite.. "we" do too much... we protect groups that don't deserve protecting and ignore our values... so why keep them in power? Because we ignore our values anyway...

Wouldn't it be better if Saudi Arabia turned into a secular republic or at least a secular constitutional monarchy?

Better for whom? Better for the Saudis... yes... better for women in Saudi Arabia... VERY MUCH YES, but who is going to get the ball rolling? The Saudi leaders wont. The US government doesn't want democracy in SA... they proved they didn't want it in Iraq and delayed giving aide against ISIS to force change there to get more fringe representation into government... if they don't want pro shia... pro iranian government officials in the iraqi government why would they encourage such things in saudi arabia... who would fund world wide terrorism if Saudi Arabia stops?

All the oppression in Quatar of human rights advocates would need to be stopped by the west instead of encouraged... the head cop from the UK was hired in that country to work out how to "deal" with problem people discretely in a way that the BBC would not get upset about...

The Arab spring should have started there...

I already humiliated him in the T-72B3 discussion thread, but some people just like it I guess. Werewofl must be a masochist.

That's the problem... Why do you want to "humiliate" him? You both have different opinions on basically everything, so accept that and get over it.

Thank you Mike... I am going to be very strict on personal attacks... lots of members talk about allowing racist or eccentric ideas somehow lowers the tone and will reduce the likelyhood of new people risking posting for fear of rejection... I personally think people who make personal attacks against those with different views actually do this.

Keep is civil or you will get a time out.

Only because he wasted my time with absurd Russia strong circular arguments, when the answer to our "question" was clear.

Actually, not just him.

No one can waste your time but YOU. If you think it is a waste of time to discuss things here... Don't.

I read every new post because I am a mod, but there is no reason for you to read or reply at all if your time is so damn precious... just state your opinion and move on.

And BTW there are no absurd Russia strong arguments. Circular or otherwise.

Iraqi forces destroyed ISIS suicide bomber truck heading towards them using KORNET-E

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=332_1425586322

IS are using many armored trucks for suicide, Kornet will save many life's.

iraqidabab wrote:Iraqi forces destroyed ISIS suicide bomber truck heading towards them using KORNET-E

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=332_1425586322

IS are using many armored trucks for suicide, Kornet will save many life's.

That was one massive explosion, it had to be at least 1,000 kg of high-explosives.

Those animals are making huge IED's lately and placing them in armored trucks for suicide bombing use, the explosions are huge.

No way 7.62mm would reach through the armored trucks, not sure if 12.7mm would but with Kornet-E the truck will always lose.

@Garry: I have one suggestion that is please move the posts of TR and Werewolf to T-90 topic and let them continue there instead of increasing the Off Topic here.

Good advice except I can't be bothered moving it either because it is nothing that is not already in the thread I would be moving it to... so I am just going to delete the tank related off topic stuff.

If you want to talk about the penetration of American rounds against Russian tanks that are not exported and have ERA on them then find a more appropriate thread to do it on.

Islamic State do not have Russian Standard T-72s nor Soviet level ERA let alone Russian Standard ERA, so it does not go here.

Iraqi forces destroyed ISIS suicide bomber truck heading towards them using KORNET-E

I was going to say that was a bit excessive, but the size of the explosion would mean you would want a stand off distance from your base so Kornet would be excellent... or any old ATGM like Malyutka or Konkurs, or Faggot. From memory the Soviet forces in Afghanistan had ZU-23 twin barrel 23mm cannon as gate guards on their bases for the same purpose... looking at that bang I would want the ATGMs... especially if they are old stock and need to be used up...

No way 7.62mm would reach through the armored trucks, not sure if 12.7mm would but with Kornet-E the truck will always lose.

Send em to hell one at a time...