Pantsir missile/gun AD system: #2

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/air-defense-systems-and-mounts/"Pantsir-S1M"/

They are advertizing the Pantsir-S1M with missiles having a range of 30km against 2m2 targets. That clearly means the missile is in service with Russia.

They are advertizing the Pantsir-S1M with missiles having a range of 30km against 2m2 targets. That clearly means the missile is in service with Russia.

Export model with export specs... but interesting anyway...

Thanks for that image Krepost... ie:



Just looking at the rear tail fins of each missile...

If we go to the KBPtula website that makes Tunguska and Kashtan and Pantsir and Hermes, we find this missile is used by Tunguska and Kashtan:



Note similar layout but different fins from all three above.

This is the missile shown for Pantsir-ME which is a naval Kashtan replacement:



And the land based Pantsir-S1:



Which both seem to match the left most missile in the top photo based on the missile tailfins visible.

While this is supposed to be a photo of the SOSNA together with the Pantsir:



So what are those two missiles on the right of the top photo... the sharp triangular fins of the middle one and the small fins of the one on the right...

The far right one might be one of those new small missiles with four missiles to a tube for drones, the centre one looks smaller and the booster is enormous so perhaps it is one of the new 40-45km range models?

Snake island is at artillery range. Fire 25 shells and the pantsir is gone. There is no perfect weapons.

It seems they understood guns are useless and they just needed more missiles. With the 4 mini missiles per tube they can have a nice mix to increase numbers.

Drawback is that this system is quite big. Sosna-R is needed to go with it and go in area this pantsir can't. But keeping wheeled chassi is good.

Well those are expensive munitions. Just use them on that 57mm AA gun which can hit further away.

30mm are not needed on modern battlefield.

More easy to reload cheap missiles is the way to go.

Interesting.

Going by the two vehicles in Broskis post, two important things are obvious... first that they are splitting the system into multiple vehicles with a large search radar and a missile vehicle with a dedicated tracking radar and optics.

The removal of the guns is probably sensible because the 30mm cannon could only reach to 3-4km against helicopter/aircraft sized... probably 2-3km for cruise missile sized targets... I would expect a combination of lasers for the destruction very very small drones out to 5km and to blind optical guidance systems including laser spot homing weapons to much greater distances, along with 57mm gun vehicles like the 2S38 which should have double the range or more with guided shells.

To be clear guided shells just means able to turn a tiny amount and hit something you were already aiming for... these are not rounds that can loop the loop and be fired in the opposite direction of the target and still get hits.

Gun rounds often miss simply because the target changes speed or direction or altitude or a combination of those... a minor turn to compensate and you still hit the target... or get close enough for the proximity fuse to solve the problem.

Obviously lasers and 57mm guns wont fit on these two vehicles but it answers the questions about the 2S38.... it clearly operates with the radar search vehicle and a missile vehicle so it does not benefit from carrying missiles or radar to support its mission.

Perhaps there will be a further command vehicle, but the electronics for each vehicle seem to be rather more compact than the systems for the original Pantsir/Kashtan.

A sea based version could use 57mm gun turrets and missile mounts with tracking radar for the missiles but the main AESA search radar of the ship for finding threats and targets... justifies putting more AESA radars on even very small boats, which will improve their situational awareness...

Guns will become more effective with airburst programmable munition. Most likely, small, simple missiles are less expensive solution.

Each has advantages and problems so I suspect moving forward they will use both.

Well those are expensive munitions. Just use them on that 57mm AA gun which can hit further away.

30mm are not needed on modern battlefield.

I suspect the 30mm will replace the 14.5mm HMG in the light cannon role... the value of cheap command detonation 30mm cannon shells will be enormously valuable on the battlefield to literally shoot around corners.

Enemy forces hiding in open topped trenches could be engaged using air burst 30mm cannon rounds exploding above the slit trench.

The chance of getting a fuse precise enough to detonate it right over the trench would make the rounds enormously expensive, but radar tracking the outgoing shells and detonating them as they reach the target would be relatively simple and affordable... and effective.

Equally troops hiding behind front cover or around corners can be detected by drone and fired at using air burst rounds exploding around corners.

They will also demolish MRAP type vehicles and civilian vehicles too and would be excellent for use against small drones you probably wont notice at more than 2km anyway.

lancelot wrote:I think this tendency Russia is having of splitting the systems into separate vehicles is a mistake.
However what I think is happening is Russia now considers Pantsir as an air defense system exclusively for doing things like doing short range air defense for S-400. While Tor being the mobile one. The idea of having two highly integrated mobile systems which compete against each other is going away basically.
Since most helicopters and relatively cheap drones like TB-2 or Reaper can hit targets at 8km range with Hellfire or equivalent any system with less range is useless against basically everything except small drones and civilian vehicles. The idea of having guns to shoot down unarmed or gun armed helicopters is kind of gone at this point. And like you guys said can be done with other vehicles with 57mm cannon like new T-15 Armata.

Well, I dare for a different opinion.
It is a logical follow-up.
30mm is fading into history I guess, the very same way 23 mm was gone.
It lacks the range and space to make it programmable and lethal at the same time.
Systems armed with it will be outgunned by not only the attack helos, but light drones, leaving all the job to missiles anyway.
And pay attention to the part, where they are removing a radar station.
Does this mean the optical/IR/IIR is just fine where it was?
Without radar, this system will cost half the actual price.
It will be harder to track, becoming passive.
Can be fed with data from all the sources around.
And have you noticed that the most cases when the Pancyr system was hit and proudly presented to the audience were when it ran out of missiles?

Now, they are filling this gap and making a space for a more specialized barrel system, which I consider a black horse of this race. Iranians are really a benchmark for antidrone warfare, as they pioneered with them long, long time ago.

So they have repeated solutions known from Buk already.