Syrian War: News #22

JohninMK wrote:All quiet on the Idlib front apart from local spats.

Marqab
@ProNDF
·
2h
No significant military build-up on any front by SAA forces. 'Huge' military reinforcements are just minor adjustments

Putin was furious as hell when he found out UAE crown prince paid Assad to start M5 offensive last year. Putin is the most peaceful leader in the world. Putin will never allow SAA to take M4 by force. Thank goodness for Putin who is just about the only man of reason left in the world.

Babak Taghvaee
·
7 may
@BabakTaghvaee
#Syria Arab Air Defense Force has now just two S-300PM-2 batteries deployed which are intended to protect only #Maysaf, #Tartus & #Latakia not even #Damascus! Syrians have only 5V55R SARH missiles with 75km max range not 5V55U/48N6E2 with 150/195km range!

Well the radar is nice but totally useless if you use it only to watch israeli missiles hitting their targets.

On the other hand, as mentioned on twiter by a syrian account, israeli will still be outside of the s300 range when firing their missiles. The most used israeli missile has a 73km max range, which is enough because the s-300 can't be close to every israeli valuable targets and protect all of them at once.

They would need a decent air force with plenty of kh-59 to be able to hit israeli targets deap inside israel.

SAA is too weak to face them. Only hope is Russia's agreement with Israel.

Well the radar is nice but totally useless if you use it only to watch israeli missiles hitting their targets.

Really?

You think seeing what is happening in your airspace is worse than not seeing like Saudi Arabia with their Patriots?

They would need a decent air force with plenty of kh-59 to be able to hit israeli targets deap inside israel.

Or Tochka-U.

SAA is too weak to face them. Only hope is Russia's agreement with Israel.

Do you think that is an accident?

Do you think if Israel doesn't stick to its agreement that Russia somehow can't deliver 150km range missiles to Syria?

By coincidence, from today

Not a coincidence, my original post was related to this thread that was abnouced yesterday.

Confirmation that the S-300 is not syrian at all. It would be still dangerous for Russia to let a foreign army use this version that is still used by Russia to defend its motherland. Usrael proved in the past they can pay some corrupted syrians to share data about their equipment.

But what is the most surprising is that they are not linked to syrian radar network.

GarryB wrote:

Well the radar is nice but totally useless if you use it only to watch israeli missiles hitting their targets.

Really?

You think seeing what is happening in your airspace is worse than not seeing like Saudi Arabia with their Patriots?

They would need a decent air force with plenty of kh-59 to be able to hit israeli targets deap inside israel.

Or Tochka-U.

SAA is too weak to face them. Only hope is Russia's agreement with Israel.

Do you think that is an accident?

Do you think if Israel doesn't stick to its agreement that Russia somehow can't deliver 150km range missiles to Syria?

1) what's the difference ? If you can't do anything what's the point of watching. Better hide.

2) Israel has developed limited ABM systems and toshka should be a problem for them. Its range would allow to hit only close bases. A cruise missile with 200km range launched from a mig-29M with 1000km range allows to cover all Israel.

3) Israel is more afraid to see Russia sending such missiles to Iran rather than Syria. That's why they don't really mess up with Russians and send Netanyahu every year to Moscow in order to beg Putin. That seems to work fine.

1) what's the difference ? If you can't do anything what's the point of watching. Better hide.

The Russians are about solutions.... not about bullshit.

The introduction of a Syrian S-300 system is not to shoot down Israeli aircraft, the S-300 is meaningless... even if they gave them 200 batteries it would not change anything... the real story is not the S-300 system under Syrian control, the real story is linking Syrian air defence forces together in a unified air defence network so everyone is on the same page and everyone knows what is what flying over Syria.

The point is not so they can shoot down every Israeli murder bot, the point is so they can tell the difference between an Il-20 operated by the Russians and an Israeli F-16.

They don't need S-300s... they have a range of other weapons they can use to do the actual intercept, the real value of the S-300 is its visibility of Syrian air space and the IADS it is connected to... both Syrian and Russian so they can see what is going on in real time... even America doesn't have that.

2) Israel has developed limited ABM systems and toshka should be a problem for them. Its range would allow to hit only close bases. A cruise missile with 200km range launched from a mig-29M with 1000km range allows to cover all Israel.

Syria could simply fund terrorists in Israel... $1 million dollars to the family of anyone who manages to kill any people on this list...

Israel is more afraid to see Russia sending such missiles to Iran rather than Syria.

So far Russia seems to think Israel has a right to exist... if they keep up with their shit that might change...

Did you read the twitter post above ? S-300 is not connected to syrian network.

Even the Jerusalem Post was forced to admit that Israeli weapons keep finding their way in to ISIS/ISIL hands!

Did you read the twitter post above ? S-300 is not connected to syrian network.

I read on twitter the other day that Adolph Hitler is still alive... he traded rocket technology with the west and the Soviets and is currently hiding out on the far side of the moon.

Why would Russia update the Syrian IADS and not connect it to their own?

Why wouldn't Russia co-locate the Syrian S-300 next to their own S-400?

The post above suggests the Russians control the S-300, but why would they operate it separate from their own IADS, and if they want the Syrians to stop accidentaly shooting down Russian aircraft why would they not give them a decent picture of the air situation in the region?

Because for one that would mean the Syrians would be clued in on the Russia network something they are against.

What do you mean clued in?

These are networks.... like computer network... you can control the flow of information if you control both networks like the Russians do.

If the Syrian portion detect a target the Russians can label that target so they know what it is, if they don't detect that target the Russians don't need to care...

They can label detected items anything they want... they control them... anything they want to keep secret they can label as civilian or just friendly without providing any more information.

The S-300's are also under Russian control not Syrian so they have zero reasons to connect it to their network.

They have every reason to connect it to both networks... first of all connecting it makes it useful... and if they control the S-300 battery there is no risk of the Syrians accidentally using it to shoot down a civilian airliner flying over Israel...

The missiles don't have a particularly enormous flight range but they would be useful enough to bring down a range of military targets if needed. and their radar would add to the IADS picture of the airspace... why is that a bad thing?

The Syrians did not accidentally shoot down that plane, the Isreal pilot simply maneuvered in such a way to make the plane take the hit.

It was more than that... the Israelis warned the Russians of a fictional attack somewhere else to get them to quickly land their plane... basically they got the Russians to move their plane to provide cover for the real attack on the place near where the plane was trying to land...

A very cowardly thing to do that has since bit them in the ass, it has certainly been a serious upgrade for the Syrian military in terms of systems... most of the IADS is expensive and very complex... most HATO forces don't have most of it...

Connecting a network is not only plug and play.

Syrian stuff is pretty outdated and they can't upgrade it easily to work with russian modern stuff. That would need new C&C posts and deap modernization of the launchers too. Russian stuff is totally digital contrary to syrian stuff.

Even their newest buk m2 and pantsir are export version and have little in common with russian softwares that allow connecting an integrated network, let alone russian IADS.

Russian IADS is a national security item. Don't expect them to integrate it into syrian system which could lead a leak to USA by a soldier low on money. Frequency of datalinks, frequency of radars, range of datalinks ... plenty of usefull things for US.

I doubt there is any integration made. More likely some sort of information exchange by radio at different levels by russian and syrian radar operators.

JohninMK wrote:

GarryB wrote:
it has certainly been a serious upgrade for the Syrian military in terms of systems... most of the IADS is expensive and very complex... most HATO forces don't have most of it...

Its really strange that a poor country like Syria has an IADS system, especially the SAM element, far superior to that which any country in NATO has on its home soil.

Russia and USSR offered already build in IADS fonction in all of its air defence systems and radars. Then it's a matter of what you buy specially in terms of command and control posts that really makes the "intergrated" in IADS.

NATO iads comes through link 16. But they are not that great with their ground AD because they lack the different level of c&c posts that russia offers to have a good IADS. Add to that that each country making weapons makes it with its own vision of the war so the systems don't complete each other but rather compete one against the other. If you buy only Russian the tor will complete the area of engagement of the buk which will complete tghe area of engagement of the s-300VM which can be protected by the pantsir and all that is commanded by different command posts connected between themselves and sharing target infos and designating targets to each system of the network allowing pretty much 90% of you radars to be turned on only for the engagement and leave their position thanks to their manoeuvrability making them more survivable.

Syrian air defense is whole russian/soviet made. After 2015 Russia help Syrian AD to modernize existing complexes, train new crews and to integrate them in working IADS. Yes, Pantsirs and Buks are export versions and so is IADS. Modernized Pechora-2M is also well integrated in IADS and other systems like Osa and Kub as well. I would not be surprised if Russian S-400 in Hmeimim also work in export level to control Syrian IADS and not to expose domestic level to NATO, who is spying over Hmeimim all the time. Russian S-300PM2, which were delivered to Syrian AD, were downgraded to S-300PMU2 export version. Syrian S-300PMU2, Buk-M1/M2, Pantsir-S1 and Pechora-2M are on the same level of export IADS integration capabilities and they could normaly worked together networked through different levels of CPs or indirectly with each other. Syrian IADS proved many times to be very effective against different strikes from NATO and Israel.

Problem for Syrian AD is, that after they shot down Israeli F-16I Sufa with Pechora-2M, Israeli jets did not enter Syrian air space, but always did attack from outside like from international air space, from Lebanon, From Jordan, from Iraq, etc. Syrian AD have limitation not to fire on enemy jets outside Syrian air space. Other problem is, that Syrian AD doesn't have enough AD complexes to defend all needed locations and Israel know that. Israel know that and they always launched enough missiles and gliding bombs, that local AD complexes could not shot down all of them. This is expensive tactics, but Israel doesn't bother, because US taxpayers pay for Israel bombs, not Israelis.

Working in downgraded mode isn't the same as the export mode.

The export country will ask the producers to have an IADS that works only with the systems it buys. Don't expect to plug an egyptian S-300 with a venezuelan S-300.

That should be the same with syrian and russian stuff.

Its really strange that a poor country like Syria has an IADS system, especially the SAM element, far superior to that which any country in NATO has on its home soil.

It is pretty fantastic actually, and a hint that they really don't fear the Soviets or the Russians were coming because they weren't expecting them to bring any air power...

Connecting a network is not only plug and play.

Are you suggesting their IADS requires a complete rebuild and reprogramming when you add a new system like a 14.5mm HMG unit?

An IADS is not a little black box that you plug your gun or missile to and all of a sudden you are playing a video game.

An IADS is a structure and groupings of command vehicles and positions linked together to basically collect data from an enormous variety of sources to collate the information together and to deliver that information to all the operational components of the system with orders.

Effectively it is a ground based AWACS... not AEW... AWACS.

The difference is that with AEW you might get a call that enemy fighters are coming from a particular direction... get ready to engage... with AWACS the targets appear on your map outside the range of your radar but based on data from another radar located somewhere else and you are allocated targets depending on your location and the enemy... if you are short range missiles you can't engage bombers at long range but if they launch cruise missiles you will be designated to engage them as they come past... together with units in front of you and behind you. If you have long range missiles you will be tasked with shooting down the bombers at extended ranges in the hope of getting them before they launch their stand off weapons...

During the Battle of Britain they had radar, but they also had guys on fishing boats calling in sightings and people on the coasts and plenty of other sources calling in information... sometimes the information was wrong, but usually when four or five sources tell you they hear bombers in a location and you know yours are not operating there there is a good chance something is up so you might send aircraft to look.

The point is that an IADS uses multiple sources of information... as you add platforms you also add their sensors as well as their weapons to your available options with dealing with the enemy. Communication is two way with central command directing the weapons to engage the targets in the most efficient way without having everyone on alert 24/7 or flying patrols 24/7... you can rest while your area is quiet, and in locations that are under attack everyone is allocated a target so you have the best chance of taking out all the targets... imagine a flight of 24 F-16s start flying over Syria... without an IADS you wont know they are there till they enter your radar view... so you need to keep your radar on to see them... you might get a call from another SAM battery or HQ but it is pretty basic... when the aircraft enter your radar range you might start firing and the battery next to you might start firing too... in such a case you might collectively launch 40 missiles but because you are not coordinating your activity you might actually only be targeting 4 of the aircraft in the group. Eventually on your screen there are 24 targets which you might label A1 through to A24, the next battery might do the same but their A6 is not the same target as their A6 so how do you tell them to engage half and you will engage the other half?

With IADS you have warning of the attack so you are ready... the numbers of targets are known and specific targets are allocated and those target IDs are shared by everyone... so coming in off the sea they might get allocated G36 through to G60, but G43 is on everyones battle screen as G43... so a battery on the coast will be allocated a selection of the targets to engage based on their distance and direction as well as the missiles they are equipped with, while the battery next to them will be allocated different targets to engage... information about the batteries ready to fire missiles are available to HQ so the first battery might have a faulty missile... its target will be allocated to another missile... either in that battery or in another battery.

And IADS is basically a two way communication system between air defence assets and a command system.

Syrian stuff is pretty outdated and they can't upgrade it easily to work with russian modern stuff. That would need new C&C posts and deap modernization of the launchers too. Russian stuff is totally digital contrary to syrian stuff.

Russia has had these IADS for decades and uses many of the outdated stuff the Syrians use... in fact they have stuff that is even older.

That doesn't matter... an SA-3 is perfectly adequate for shooting down high flying drones or cruise missiles cruising at medium altitudes... why waste a brand new missile you can save for more difficult targets the SA-3 would have problems with?

That is another part of an IADS... it can optimise the weapons used to suit the threats in question, so drones and high flying bombers trying to use standoff weapons can be engaged with otherwise obsolete weapons... SA-4 or SA-5 can still bring down targets...

Even their newest buk m2 and pantsir are export version and have little in common with russian softwares that allow connecting an integrated network, let alone russian IADS.

IADS don't require its components to be built with them in mind... otherwise Russia would need to build a new IADS every time it introduces a new missile or gun system.

Think of it in terms of something like a Shilka.... it doesn't take much of an upgrade to install a simple computer that receives data from a command vehicle that directs it towards targets.... Shilkas have always had command vehicles that direct the battery so the vehicles in the battery are not all shooting at the same target and leaving other targets free to do as they please.

Effectively an IADS is the system used for a single battery expanded to include all the air defence assets in the country.

You don't need a brand new Shilka... a few changes to the electronics and comms systems and maybe quite a few changes to the command vehicle that operates with it and it will be fine... a new laptop inside that shows enemy aircraft from external radar sources showing your location so when the target is within range you can set your scan to the sector where the target is coming so within a second or so you will get a detection and lock and you can start opening fire... instead of sitting there scanning 360 degrees all the time looking for targets... targets that will detect you and either attack you from stand off ranges with missile or fly around your effective gun range. With the IADS you can see them coming... you know which you are to engage... and you can effectively ambush them when they are in the danger zone of your weapon system greatly increasing your chances of a kill and decreasing your chances of getting killed or simply being bypassed and flown around.

Russian IADS is a national security item.

Of course it is, but they are upgrading all the time so while the Su-57 is a secret there will be Su-35s that can be sold and even versions of the Su-57 that can be sold that would do excellent jobs without revealing anything about Russian Su-57s.

They will also have mobile IADS that move with Army and Air Force air defence forces to other places... like Syria... and of course export models that they can communicate with... otherwise you run the risk of your allies shooting down your planes in error .Obviously they had an agreement with Israel so they didn't need to implement it, but since the Israelis abused the situation Russia has now implemented a solution.

The Syrians IADS is connected to the Russian IADS... it only makes sense. The Russians are not everywhere in Syria so their radar and sensor coverage only comes from a few locations... by adding the Syrian systems including civilian systems they fill in a lot of gaps for themselves. In terms of the other way the Russians created both systems and should be able to control what the Syrians see, but the idea was to avoid mistakes so it makes sense to let the Syrian AD forces know what is what in the air.

Don't expect them to integrate it into syrian system which could lead a leak to USA by a soldier low on money.

What is he going to leak... the codes we used last week were... the codes will be megabytes of symbols... you would need electronic copies.

And so what... the Americans already fly through Syrian airspace.... why would they care about the codes?

Frequency of datalinks, frequency of radars, range of datalinks ... plenty of usefull things for US.

All things easily detectable from international airspace in the Med or Syrian airspace or Turkish airspace or Iraqi airspace or the airspace over Jordan...

I doubt there is any integration made. More likely some sort of information exchange by radio at different levels by russian and syrian radar operators.

Yeah, it took months to put in place because Syrians don't know how to use radios...

But if that was all it was why were the Israelis so upset and why do they shoot from standoff distances now?

Russia and USSR offered already build in IADS fonction in all of its air defence systems and radars. Then it's a matter of what you buy specially in terms of command and control posts that really makes the "intergrated" in IADS.

You do understand that air defence systems are already designed to receive target information from other platforms anyway... an IADS is just that over the whole country with a command component added.

The export country will ask the producers to have an IADS that works only with the systems it buys. Don't expect to plug an egyptian S-300 with a venezuelan S-300.

That should be the same with syrian and russian stuff.

So what you are saying is that Saudi Arabia would be fucked, because it uses a mix of air defence systems so it would be impossible for them to ever have an IADS.... they would need one for Patriot and one for european air defence SAMs in addition to the one for Russian SAMs and potentially another one for Soviet SAMS or Chinese copies of Soviet or Russian SAMs?

An IADS is a communications and command network that links sources of air target data and air defence weapons with a command and control structure.

Most of the times it means replacing the radio in the command vehicle of an air defence battery, but for more modern or upgraded systems each vehicle gets a datalink so they can see a radar picture on their screens populated with data from other sources in the network... if they move then they might move to a dark area where there is no effective low level radar coverage so turning on one of their radars will light up that dark area and reveal any hidden targets... the point is that that dark area will be lit up for everyone on the network so everyone will see the targets. You might be in a Tunguska battery with radar detection capacity well beyond the range of your 30mm cannon and 10km range SA-19 missiles but your 35km range search radar might detect an F-15E flying low and fast that the nearby S-400 battery didn't see because of a line of hills... the F-15E knew this and was trying to sneak up on the S-400 but now the S-400 knows it is there it can fire an ARH 9M96 to intercept the target... the Tunguska couldn't reach it but it could see it... the S-400 could reach it but could not see it... together they shoot it down.

Of course the IADS might decide that the F-15E is approaching a Pine battery with its radar switched off and that the very low flying F-15E could be shot down using the much cheaper missile so the Pine battery might launch a missile first to see if they can take it down in radar silence...