Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

Why should Russia keep a contract after western countries showed time and time again that they give a sh... about contracts?

Russian Navy PR department should be handed over to God Emperor's Holy Inquisition for their endless failures but at least random Internet folks are willing to contribute...

medo wrote:Too short ship. Ivan Rogov is 220 m long, not 160 m.

Meh, still better than official one...

IMO it could be that the design is too close to Mistral design from which they received ToT from french NavalGroup (plans of the design notably) but they signed to destroy the documents and not use them. It could be that they are affraid of french bringing the case to the justice.

France also signed a lot of contracts to deliver the two mistrals Russia paid for but things changed.

France can't expect Russia not to use information they gathered during the whole Mistral purchasing affair... consider it a fee for time lost.

No they can't. They signed a contract to not use the ToT to create a ship that can compete with the Mistral on the international market. They also had to destroy all the documents they got to build their part of the mistral.

So they wont export any... and destroying documents is not the same as destroying all copies and backups...

Producing the same ship with minor changes means they used the ToT which was forbiden by the contract.

That contract is void because France refused to deliver the products paid for in the time allotted.

Once the contract is broken it is broken.

If they do it French can sue them and ask for a big amount of money.

They can ask anything they like, but the new constitution they have now adopted might make it hard for France as it moves Russian law above international law in Russia.

French gave back the money according to the contract. They respected the contract.

The contract was to deliver two ships, not to pay money back.

Such contract are not 1 page long but a big book that take into consideration lot of scenarios. The non-delivry of the ship is one of them and russians were aware of that.

I am sure there is plenty of wriggle room... you don't expect Russia to never build a helicopter carrier again do you?

Russians could have asked for more money but didn't want to hurt their relation with french as the decsion to stop the sell was made because of NATO pressions. But I don't think they will risk to pay French all the money for copying their design and the actual design may be totally new.

France screwed Russia, the Russians should not care about relations with France over this debacle, can Russia trust France over anything?

I would say clearly not.

I guess the reason it has a small aerial wing for its size is that they had to sacrifice space for the AA weapons.

Rubbish... and 2-3 extra helicopters wont make any difference with it sitting on the sea bed.

That said you are right when you say the Russians borrowed from the Mistral design something that was against the contract signed and the french did honor the contract by returning the money PLUS paying Russia a fee for not delivering the ships.

The contract is null and void, the ships were not delivered. They got their money back and can now design and build what they like.

The-thing-next-door wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Russian Navy PR department should be handed over to God Emperor's Holy Inquisition for their endless failures

Well I mist agree they are absolutely ineffective.

But why the 40K jokes?

No reason, I just like 40k

The-thing-next-door wrote:Off topic but which faction do you favor?

Other than Imperium whom everyone loves (because it's heresy to do otherwise!!!) I love playing with Chaos (Nurgle's crew in particular) but funny part is that I often have to make breaks in gameplay because noises those nutjobs make are quite disturbing

And their storylines are batshit insane, wiki is a blast to read

wilhelm wrote:Not sure if that is just the perspective of the illustration, but to me either that is a massively long Island, or the boat is more like 190-200m long instead of 220m so often mentioned?
Difficult to tell.
Any thoughts?

I think so as well

Models they showed before and ship they are actually building are definitely different

Whatever comes out of that shipyard will be shorter than 220

You are wrong. They never broke the contract. The non-delivery is part of the contract. They gave back the money which is part of the contract.

Russia is making two helicopter carriers that are 5,000 tons heavier than Mistral so they are not building Mistrals so they aren't breaking the contract either.

Yes and they care. France is with Germany leading the EU and Russia wants good economic relations with them.

What are you talking about.... both have the other under economic sanctions... as per orders from Washington...

But if they want to keep making business with foreign countries they have to respect international laws.

Why?

Was the EU respecting international law when they bombed Serbia over Kosovo... how about your attack on Libya and murder of Gadaffi?

Which International law allows EU and US special forces to train terrorists in Syria against the wishes of the Syrian government?

Funny how respect for international law is only a one way street...

Russian don't want everyone to do anything they want so they won't start doing what they want when it's against their engagements.

I doubt Russia will ever buy another French ship so I don't see what the problem is...

Again, France had the right to not deliver the ships. It was part of the contract. Abd frankly Mistrals are not suited for russian Navy. Not the same helicopters, not the same areas of deployment, not the same landing forces... their naval design makers can do something on their own. Mistral is a civilian design.

They wanted a design fast because their experience in Georgia made them realise if a more powerful country was the problem.... say Japan regarding the Kuriles then they might not have been able to respond in time and 8 8 8 showed them they could not rely on the international community to be fair or even impartial.

The response was the need for a landing vessel and the Mistral seemed to be the best alternative and being a proven design there would be little time wasted.

France didn't have a "right" to not deliver the ships... they had an outclause incase they didn't have the spine to stand up to the US... call it a get out of jail because I am a pussy clause, which they invoked.

If France had honoured their part of the deal they probably would be negotiating the next two because the plan was always for four ships... two in the Pacific Fleet and two in the Northern Fleet, but now Russian ship makers will get to design and build four new ships for Russia and I doubt France will ever be given a tour of the ships... they wont be carbon copies of the Mistrals because there was a lot they did not like but had to put up with. Now they can correct the most serious faults and get a properly armed and designed military ship.

France should be happy for Russia.

I don't care what the Russians did but it was a violation of the contract, again arms contracts contain many stipulations regarding technological sharing and data transfer.

Don't try and water it down to "ship wasn't delivered they can do what they want legally" sorry but no that's not how it works at all. Again don't care but facts are facts.

Without access to the new ships how can you prove in a court of law that they are "copies"?

The fact that they are different size an a different weight with different capacities for helicopters and presumably their landing ships and armour is redesigned to suit the new stuff the Russians are making will make them different enough to not be able to be called copies... and as I said they have not mentioned any exports... they will want four if they are happy with the design, so they wont be making any export models for at least 10-15 years anyway.

So are the new landing mistral derivatives?

I doubt it. More like previous designs with some Mistral like updates and improvements.

That would seem an illogical decision on the part of the Russian navy, it would be far better to use the blueprints as a standard to surpass and have thier own design bureaus design a vastly superior vessel.

If they were just making Mistrals they had the blueprints an without modifications could have started making them a few years ago...