Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

PapaDragon wrote:

Krepost wrote:There is no contract signed.
So, don't get too excited about building frigates at Amur Shipyard yet.
I could be just a way to pressure Severnaya Werf to get its act together.

Why bother with trying to pressure incompetent shipyard to get it's act together when you can just take contracts from them and give them to a shipyard with increasingly impressive track record?

Or should we wait for some long delayed Gorshkov frigate to get torched as well?

Not that simple.
Amur shipyard can not build frigate sized vessels with its current infrastructure.
Large investment are needed to make it happen.
I hope they do it. I would like to see frigate contracts signed and/or infrastructure investment contracts signed.

Is this true? The Project 22350 frigates do not seem to be significantly larger than a Project 971 submarine.

I got this from the Amur Shipyard website:

- slipway complex, consisting of closed heated slipways, including 9 dry construction docks, allowing to assemble hulls of vessels up to 200m long and up to 19m wide.

- In 2006, an open slipway was designed and put into operation, which allows the formation of hulls of vessels up to 23 m wide.

These are the stats for the Project 22350 frigate:
Standard Displacement: 4,550 tons
Length: 135 m
Beam: 16 m
Draught: 4.5 m

These are the stats for the Project 971 submarine:
Surfaced Displacement: 8,140 tons
Length: 110.3 m
Beam: 13.6 m
Draught: 9.7 m

Modernization of the plant's capabilities is required.
General Director of Amur SZ has mentioned in the past that it is necessary to modernize the internal slipways where a series of corvettes (pr. 30380 and pr. 20385) are now being assembled.
And then, there is the issue of the sorry state of the dock that is needed to take vessels from the slipways, move it along the Amur river and then lower it into the water. Money has been allocated for the dock recently, but nothing has been done yet.

Furthermore, there are also rumors that frigate and/or corvette production may also be given to Yantar SZ in Kaliningrad.
I say again: let's wait for contracts to be signed or at least a confirmation from an official source.

This kind of "modernization" means retooling, in most cases.
For example, a crane can be capable to lift a 120t structure, while the building technology requires a 150t element.
Or it can position the element with 7cm accuracy, while 2cm is needed.
So you need a new crane or cranes ...
If you are to make a ship with a composite structure, you need less welding/steel processing and additional composite handling. So you need to add some yacht shipyard division along with the existing one.
Sometimes you need to train the crew for some new processes or technology, like more SS steel replacing black one ...
A drydock is something you just need to order, with the proper size&lift. Not a big deal, in most shipyards they can construct the drydock by their own means.

Why does the metal of the casings appear warped?

Thin metal coverings often warp like that over the structure they are attached to.

Krepost wrote:
Not that simple.
Amur shipyard can not build frigate sized vessels with its current infrastructure.
Large investment are needed to make it happen.
I hope they do it. I would like to see frigate contracts signed and/or infrastructure investment contracts signed.

This post from Owais.Usmani pretty much confirms that they will start building frigates in the near future. It is now just a matter of when they will start.

The press service of Amur Shipyard confirmed to VL. ru correspondent that the company is indeed preparing to sign a contract to build frigates.
Most likely the contract can be signed at the forum "Army 2022" but we have to wait for the official information. https://t.co/ATebV0JEuv
— Massimo Frantarelli (@MrFrantarelli) January 3, 2022

GarryB wrote:

Why does the metal of the casings appear warped?

Thin metal coverings often warp like that over the structure they are attached to.

Nice picture of the ghost ship!

Mir wrote:

Krepost wrote:
Not that simple.
Amur shipyard can not build frigate sized vessels with its current infrastructure.
Large investment are needed to make it happen.
I hope they do it. I would like to see frigate contracts signed and/or infrastructure investment contracts signed.

This post from Owais.Usmani pretty much confirms that they will start building frigates in the near future. It is now just a matter of when they will start.

The press service of Amur Shipyard confirmed to VL. ru correspondent that the company is indeed preparing to sign a contract to build frigates.
   Most likely the contract can be signed at the forum "Army 2022" but we have to wait for the official information. https://t.co/ATebV0JEuv
   — Massimo Frantarelli (@MrFrantarelli) January 3, 2022

"Proposing to marry" does not mean "getting married".
I will wait for the contract to be signed.

Krepost wrote:
"Proposing to marry" does not mean "getting married".
I will wait for the contract to be signed.

In most cases it does - and sometimes with a bambino to boot!
(read: production has already started whilst the ink has not yet dried)

Mir wrote:Nice picture of the ghost ship!

I think you mean the Great White Elephant.

The aesthetics of the plates on any ship is limited by physics.  Thermal expansion acts proportional to their area, but they are
welded to the frame.  Even if the frame expands it cannot compensate for the expansion of every plate.   So the plates have
to buckle as there is nowhere for the expansion to go.  They are designed to deform this way and it is not a design or manufacturing
mistake.   I doubt that there is much effort put in making the surface ultra smooth for some target temperature.   Having some
slack in the plates (denting) when they are assembled helps to reduce stress on the welds during thermal contraction.  

When you put sheathing on the frame of a house, you need to leave a gap (one nail wide) between the sheets of OSB or plywood
to allow for both moisture and temperature induced expansion.   If you don't, then the sheathing will rip itself off the frame over
time.  There is no welding and riveting for sheets of wood products, just nails for any real world construction.  Obviously, you
cannot follow this procedure on a ship since it needs to be watertight.  

If you want to see no denting of plates, then stick with fiberglass or composite mono-hull boats.

Big_Gazza wrote:I think you mean the Great White Elephant.  

Kinda more an orange/brown elephant lately

Моre than seven months old picture of Admiral Golovko frigate. We are waiting for it to sail. Those 22350 frigates are really nice looking ships.

I post this picture for size comparison purposes:
Admiral Kasatonov and Vice-Admiral Kulakov

Krepost wrote:I post this picture for size comparison purposes:
Admiral Kasatonov and Vice-Admiral Kulakov

what it really matters is the number and the type of missiles..

George1 wrote:

Krepost wrote:I post this picture for size comparison purposes:
Admiral Kasatonov and Vice-Admiral Kulakov

what it really matters is the number and the type of missiles..

With the exception of range everything else is on the Gorshkov class side..

-Range
-Endurance
-2 helicopters v/s only 1 on Gorshkov

How about sea-keeping? How about crew space, amenities and comfort?
etc.

Krepost wrote:-Range
-Endurance
-2 helicopters v/s only 1 on Gorshkov

How about sea-keeping? How about crew space, amenities and comfort?
etc.

I dont think that 1155 Fregat class of large anti submarine ships has better comfort for his crew compared to 22350 frigates, but space for crew is somewhat similar - maybe. If you calculate the difference in the displacement of both ships then you will see that they are approximately similar in number of crew members. Sea keeping is related with the ships total range and that is a big plus for 1155 Fregat class.
I dont think that almost 30 years older project 1155 can beat 22350 frigates in those areas. They almost cetainly have a better and more quality beds, wardrobes, kitchen, maybe even gym on 22350 class of frigates.

Isos wrote:Udaloy is a soviet anti sub warfare ship. Gorshkov is a modern multi mission ship.
It's pointless to compare them.

Used to be before the Marshall Shaposhnikov upgrades. If they do end up putting the Redut on it even less so.

lancelot wrote:

Isos wrote:Udaloy is a soviet anti sub warfare ship. Gorshkov is a modern multi mission ship.
It's pointless to compare them.

Used to be before the Marshall Shaposhnikov upgrades. If they do end up putting the Redut on it even less so.

I don't think that conditions for the crew have been drastically improved compared to non-modernized ships od the class, but armament is upgraded. And even in that case 22350 has a lot better air defence and A-192 naval gun. Shaposhnikov does not have Paket-NK anti submarine and anti torpedoes system, but it has a great sonar. Both ships are equal in the terms of UKSK launchers, 2 launchers with 8 cells in every launcher.
Shaposhnikov has better anti ship capabilities because twoo 3S24 launchers with 4 H-35U (english KH-35U) missiles per launcher have been installed on the ship. It has one more helicopter also.
Next twoo ships (Admiral Vinogradov and Admiral Chabanenko) could have some more anti ship capabilities compared to Shaposhnikov because instalation of 4 3S24 launchers is proposed.

Shaposhnikov does not have Paket-NK anti submarine and anti torpedoes system

Most Russian Navy surface ships will be fitted with the Paket-NK.

Krepost wrote:I post this picture for size comparison purposes:
Admiral Kasatonov and Vice-Admiral Kulakov

Huuuge crane

i look at this picture and i see next;
* 64 missile cells from the system 9K96 Redut,
* 70 missiles cells in 15 UKSK (VLS) X 4 missiles per launcher; 3M-14 Kalibr (land attack), 3M-54 Kalibr (anti-sip), 3M-22 Cirkon (hypersonic AS missile), P-800 Onyx (supersonic AS missile), Otvet (anti-submarine missile + torpedo)...
* and those launchers in the middle of the ship.. well, that looks big, maybe 24 launchers (who knows how many missiles) for 48N6 and 40N6 missiles. Maybe 24 launchers with 4 missiles per launcher = 96 or same as Peter the Great.
* Of course 2 Pantsyr-M's and A-192(M) Armat gun are visible.
such a ship would overshadow even the 1144 class. I know that this is just a model of the 22350M, but i like it. Give this beauty a nuclear power plant and that's it. There is no way that this thing has full displacement at just 8000 tons.
Mikhail Illarionovich Kutuzov class....