Project 885: Yasen class #2

The structural changes to accommodate the Tsirkon missiles is likely the cause of the delays?

I think production of the 885M's will stop at 7 units to make way for the Laika nuclear submarines.

Brother MIR, if Admiral Gorshkov can launch 3M22, then why can't 885M submarines do it too. But yes, maybe that is the reason.
The question is whether it will be a total of 8 submarines of project 885M or 7 in the case that Ulyanovsk (as AMCXXL and I wrote) is a submarine of project 09853.
It is better that they lay the keels for at least two more 885M submarines, because the wait for the start of the construction of project 545A submarines (although that designation will be changed for sure) is too long and replacement for the existing 971 submarines is necessary.

It's wikipedia with the available modify option for everyone. It's worth nothing.

Podlodka77 wrote:Brother MIR, if Admiral Gorshkov can launch 3M22, then why can't 885M submarines do it too. But yes, maybe that is the reason.
The question is whether it will be a total of 8 submarines of project 885M or 7 in the case that Ulyanovsk (as AMCXXL and I wrote) is a submarine of project 09853.
It is better that they lay the keels for at least two more 885M submarines, because the wait for the start of the construction of project 545A submarines (although that designation will be changed for sure) is too long and replacement for the existing 971 submarines is necessary.

The 885 is already an "old" design in my book - dating back to the 80's - though it was/is progressively updated as the program continues as usual. The Laika will (or should) be the successor to both the 885 and the 971. The Laika's design is probably already finalized and the first boat should be laid down pretty soon.

I don't like your "book", Mir...  
Yes, the keel for the first K-560 submarine (Project 885) was laid in 1993, but the whole project was radically upgraded with the 885M submarines.
The beginning of the development of the Virginia class dates back to 1991.
Project 885M submarines do not lag behind other SSGN submarines, on the contrary...

No the 885M's certainly don't lag behind - it is a great submarine. The fact is that no more of this class has been laid down since 2020 and this is a clear indication that they very likely stopped it's production.

You must remember that the 885 was a Soviet project that was severely delayed due to the political and economical upheaval that was experienced in the late 80's throughout the early 90's. It's roots dates back to even before the Gepard was laid down. This was sadly the fate of many programs of that time. The Mig-29M was another such victim and only much later evolved into the Mig-35 (but it was too little too late) with the Mig-35 not going anywhere.

The Laika should keep the Russians ahead in nuclear submarine design for a long time to come. It will apparently use composite materials as a replacement for the usual rubber coating and it will be able to launch torpedoes silently. They will need significant numbers of these subs - meaning a lot of resources will be allocated to this program.

Yes, the submarine 885M is by far the most powerful force of the Russian Navy at sea.  
I know this is just the assumption of an Englishman, but I think that the successor of the 885M class could have 6 silos (instead of 8 on the 885M) and not just 4 as in this picture.




What I am interested in is whether the next submarine will have a full displacement of more or less than 10,000 tons. I also know that they showed some mock-ups in which it is again about a submarine over 10,000 tons, but we will get confirmation about that only when the construction starts.

The covert whores drawings have an unusually non Russian number of weapons on board, it is likely just wishful thinking on thier part and the real Laika will probably be even more heavily armed than the Yasen.

The-thing-next-door wrote:The covert whores drawings have an unusually non Russian number of weapons on board, it is likely just wishful thinking on thier part and the real Laika will probably be even more heavily armed than the Yasen.

Covert Whores....
That picture shows the outline of the submarine with 4 silos instead of the 8 that the 885M submarines have.
Considering that the Russians are rearming all their ships and submarines well, I also think that the sketch is far from reality.
And after all, the Russians did not give absolutely any characteristics of the future submarine.
The last Russian SSN nuclear submarines that did have a full displacement below 10,000 tons are the titanium submarines 945 Barracuda and 945A Condor.
It can also be as you wrote, that is, they will be armed at least as much as the Yasen-M, although I am of the opinion that they will be slightly smaller submarines.

Mir wrote:The structural changes to accommodate the Tsirkon missiles is likely the cause of the delays?

Unlikely given the Zircon has been tested from Severodvinsk, the initial boat. If Perm is being modified I suspect it is to accomodate the Kalibre-M, ie upgrade Perm to same standard as the later Voronezh and Vladivostok.

Big question in my mind concerns Ulyanovsk. Is she a 885M or is she a Posiedon carrier type 09853?

To Big Gazza

TASS announced this for Ulyanovsk and there was no denial from the Russian MOD.
We have to wait for the final result and see what the truth is.


Full text;

January 15, 2021, 01:02,
updated January 15, 2021, 01:04
New equipment of the RF Armed Forces

Source: the third carrier of nuclear super torpedoes "Poseidon" will be transferred to the fleet until 2027
According to the interlocutor of the agency, the construction of the hull of the ship "Ulyanovsk" is being completed, and in the near future its hydraulic tests will begin at the plant "Sevmash"

MOSCOW, 15 January. /TASS/. The third carrier of Poseidon nuclear unmanned underwater vehicles, the special-purpose nuclear submarine Ulyanovsk, is being built in Russia, the submarine will be transferred to the Russian Navy along with weapons under the state armament program until 2027. This was reported to TASS by a source in the shipbuilding industry.

"The special-purpose nuclear submarine "Ulyanovsk" (project 09853) will be transferred to the Navy as part of the current state armament program until 2027, along with underwater vehicles, which by that time will also have completed state tests. Unlike the first two carriers of nuclear supertorpedoes," Ulyanovsk "will be the first commissioned as a single complex along with weapons,” he said.

According to the interlocutor of the agency, the construction of the ship's hull is now being completed, and in the near future its hydraulic tests will begin at the Sevmash plant (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation). The Ulyanovsk special-purpose nuclear submarine was laid down at the Sevmash shipyard in 2017. This is the younger brother of the Khabarovsk submarine of project 09851. It has the same basic dimensions, but differs from the Khabarovsk in that it will use more modern systems and mechanisms," he added.

TASS does not have an official comment from the Sevmash Production Association, where this nuclear submarine is being built.

Initially, it was assumed that the name "Ulyanovsk" would receive the sixth hull of the multi-purpose submarine of project 885M "Yasen-M".

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwikjZf9sMD_AhUBh_0HHZmgBlEQFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftass.ru%2Farmiya-i-opk%2F10465325&usg=AOvVaw3s9ywByRGOO21ekT5bDpAO

Neither Wikipedia nor TASS can be regarded as 100% accurate sources, but sometimes 99% is good enough.

My uneducated guess is that the "Ulyanovsk" is not the actual Pr.09853 under construction but that it is in fact just another Pr.885M.

I could be very much mistaken here and we will probably only know the truth in a couple of years from now.

The Pr.09851 Khabarovsk (apparently based on the Borey SSBN) and the Pr.09853 are likely sisters and based on the same design, but the latter is an updated modification with much more modern systems, in a similar way as the old Pr.955 differs from the more modern Pr.955A.

To MIR

What you think is exactly what I hope for...

Greetings to you submariners..

When the day comes when the submarine K-564 "Arkhangelsk" will be launched and if one of you jerks happens to announce it before me...

June 21, 10:28 am
updated June 21, 10:45
Nuclear submarine "Krasnoyarsk" will be handed over to the fleet before the end of 2023
Sevmash is building six nuclear submarines of project 885M

KRONSTADT, June 21. /TASS/. Nuclear submarine (NPS) "Krasnoyarsk" project 885M will be transferred to the Russian Navy before the end of 2023. This was announced to TASS during the International Naval Salon by the General Director of Sevmash (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) Mikhail Budnichenko.

"We will transfer Krasnoyarsk to the fleet before the end of this year," he said.

At present, Sevmash is building six Project 885M nuclear submarines. Nuclear submarines "Severodvinsk" (project 885), "Kazan", "Novosibirsk" (project 885M) were transferred to the fleet.
Starting with the nuclear submarine "Perm" - the sixth in a row in the family "Yasen" / "Yasen-M" - submarines of this project will be regular carriers of hypersonic missiles "Zirkon" developed and manufactured by the Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/18075939

NEWCON Russia Navy Pr.885M class Yasen-M (SSGN) K-571 "Krasnoyarsk" likely conducted a mandatory platform-certification cruise missile test firing (SS-N-26/27A/30A) in the White sea, overnight 28 July 2023

Podlodka77 wrote:When the day comes when the submarine K-564 "Arkhangelsk" will be launched and if one of you jerks happens to announce it before me...  

Wrong Liam Neeson movie

I think production of the 885M's will stop at 7 units to make way for the Laika nuclear submarines.

I would suspect they will wait till the new technologies they intend to put on the new subs are ready and working before they stop making the subs it is going to replace.

Imagine if they had stopped making Improved Kilo class SSKs when they laid down the first three Lada class subs...

GarryB wrote:

I think production of the 885M's will stop at 7 units to make way for the Laika nuclear submarines.

I would suspect they will wait till the new technologies they intend to put on the new subs are ready and working before they stop making the subs it is going to replace.

Imagine if they had stopped making Improved Kilo class SSKs when they laid down the first three Lada class subs...

If it is only a matter of installing new technologies, they can be put inside the Yasen and make a second series of Yasen II

If what is intended is to make a smaller submarine with less displacement and length, it will also carry fewer weapons, what has been published about the Husky is that it will be the length of the Akula, about 110-115 meters, and it would carry only 16 launchers missiles (4x4)

Frankly, I doubt very much that the Russian Navy wants this, the Yasen-M is a bit longer (130m) but it carries a lot more weapons.
Anyway, less than a dozen Yasen are not going to be done.

At the moment, what Russia must do is repair and modernize the Soviet submarines that it has available and continue delivering the Borey's and Yasen-M currently projected until the year 2030 and then continue manufacturing one submarine a year until the desired number is reached.

One problem with the Yasen is that it was originally designed in the 1990s when budgets were limited. While most of the issues in the design like lagging electronics on the sensors and the bridge were fixed in the Yasen-M, it is kind of questionable if they should have gone with the conventional propeller or moved into pump jets like all other nuclear submarines of its generation seem to be doing. I cannot also help but feel by looking at submarines like the UK's Astute class that the hull design itself is becoming obsolete. Not that the US Virginia class is any better being basically a cheap mass production version of the Seawolf hull.

But the really big issue is that even the Yasen-M was designed to be made with the smaller blocks that were possible to assemble in the older facilities at Sevmash. Now that Sevmash refurbished the whole facilities to build boats in larger blocks they need to take advantage of it to reduce submarine construction times further. This means they need to make a new submarine design. Which is what I think the Laika is supposed to be. A new attack submarine that will be faster to mass produce.

Not this pump-jet nonsense again...

Pump jets might be quiet but they are inefficent and impose a large performance penalty on the boat. Ok for SSBNs that need to be stealthy but if a Yasen-M ever gets into a knife-fight with a Virgina it won't be a slow cat-and-mouse affair. Active sonars will light-up the ocean and all pretenses of stealth will be abandoned. Russians clearly intend their attack boats to have superior kinetic perfomance as a form of active defense. Find the Virginia, attack with rocket-propelled ASW weapons, while using speed to defend against enemy weapons (which have limited energy reserves).

Russians put pump-jets onto the Bories but chose "conventional" exposed props for the Yasens. You can bet your last dollar/ruble that they have very good reasons for doing this, even if Western military media sources choose to indulge in their usual institutional arrogance and demeaning anti-Russian BS.