New combat aircraft will be presented at MAKS-2021

Single-engined planes were "outlawed" by Gorbachev back in the late 1980´s. One of his one-sided arms reduction efforts to look goods in the west. Back then the military was against it but they couldn´t do much. We in hell should they be opposed to a single-engined fighter today? No need to please Gorbachev.

Sometimes you can look at a weapon design and just know it's a winner (and the converse is also true). Call me crazy, but the latest single engine design from Sukhoi has success written all over it.

True. It ticks all of the good checkpoints.
The fact that they borrowed so much from the rigourously tested Su-57 means that X amount of money and time that was going towards reinventing the wheel could be focused on improving it in other areas.

Given that size, and the materials it is made with, a 14.5 - 16 T class engine would make it very nimble.
Apart from that, the weapon allowance is large for such a size, and the avionics stem from the 57, so its going to be good stuff.

All what is needed would be to materialize it and hope that politics would not get in the way of selling it.

I find it unlikely that Russia will even lay down a new carrier in the rnct ten years let alone have one bearing completion. They have too much work to do building the middle and upper tear of their navy first (large frigates/destroyers/cruisers etc) to even need a new carrier yet. So on that basis it would seem mig seems to have a long time in which to perfect their 5th gen carrier fighter.

Lurk83 wrote:I find it unlikely that Russia will even lay down a new carrier in the rnct ten years let alone have one bearing completion. They have too much work to do building the middle and upper tear of their navy first (large frigates/destroyers/cruisers etc) to even need a new carrier yet. So on that basis it would seem mig seems to have a long time in which to perfect their 5th gen carrier fighter.

Yes maybe I'm a bit optimistic in my statement that in 10 years from now Russia's new carrier would be nearing completion but it would certainly be under construction. They are not going to wait until all the support ships are completed before they start building carriers. On the other hand Mig would have a pretty good idea if and when Russia is going to start it's carrier program and it won't surprise me if they start near the end of this decade.

As sad as it may sound, the MiG gave way to Sukhoi in its main niche of light fighters, they still hope for the PAK DP

You say they gave way, but they are clearly offering a twin engined carrier based aircraft in the MiG-35 weight class which is light twin engined, and it has its own companion drone design and they showed a single engined light fighter too so what are you talking about gave way?

MiG is failing as it deserved to, laziness and failure should not be rewarded

What laziness... they are working harder than Sukhoi is.

competition keeps you on your toes - just ask Mig!

Competition does not help when you specialise in the lower weight class and heaviest weight class of fighter like MiG-29 and MiG-31 and your country decides to focus on middle weight class fighters like the Flanker.

The Su-33 was a joke but still won... it couldn't even carry and use R-77s and the Mig-33 of the time was a fully multirole fighter bomber... the Su-33 couldn't even carry external fuel tanks.

I think The Checkmate was a bit of a wake up call for them - I hope.

MiG does not need a wake up call, they need a break and I suspect they got it with the LMFS programme going ahead because they are clearly not getting the export attention the Sukhoi boys are getting.

As much as I'd like to see MiG succeed, it's hard to see any future in this carrier-based stealth fighter program. Firstly, Russia has only one aircraft carrier, they won't be building another until the Lider-Class destroyers are serially produced which hasn't gotten past the conceptual stage yet, that means the Russian Navy won't even buy them anytime soon. So who will? India?

The MiG-35 is carrier capable reportedly, so this new aircraft design most likely will be designed to operate from land or at sea.

The Su-75 Checkmate will [most likely] be serially produced by 2026 and the UAC has already said they'll offer export clients a carrier-based version if they so choose. Even if Russia doesn't choose the Su-75 as their light/medium naval fighter, the Indians sure as hell would, especially a 5th generation jet for $30 Million or even $50 Million a piece (the price of the MiG-29K now).

Which means basically there is no current carrier based Checkmate and if there is one developed it will cost more than an equivalent 4th gen fighter model unless they buy hundreds of them. Making a carrier based Checkmate... even assuming they are happy with a single engined model will take time and wont result in something particularly cheap.

How long do you think Russia would take to build its first post-soviet era aircraft carrier? 2035 is a conservative estimate at best. Is MiG willing to wait that long? Would they even have a choice?

They are already making MiG-29KRs for their current carrier and India are ordering more now too. They are also making MiG-35s for the Russian Air Force to boost fighter numbers with a plane that is cheap to operate.

While they are making these they can work on the MiG-41 and also the new aircraft they have planned.

How many countries in the world have aircraft carriers? How many of those countries are US/NATO Vassals and couldn't buy russian fighters even if they wanted to?

It is a small market which is why they are probably considering VSTOL options because that expands the market to countries with helicopter carriers for aircraft carriers.

Personally I think it is not a big enough market to break even on such a fragile expensive aircraft dead end.

RuAF has had resistance to single engine planes. The Su57 seems to be terrific but not cheap, altho excellent value for money.

All their Flankers are expensive to operate, that is the purpose of the MiG-35... it has lower operating costs while retaining twin engine safety.

The single jet Checkmate seems to be a miracle on price but the VVS hasn't signed up yet.

It is not a VVS programme... it is being made for another country.

The VVS was planning to buy MiG-35s for the lower operating costs aircraft and the follow on LMFS design would be the Su-57 equivalent which they might or might not buy depending how much each costs to operate and how they perform.

I think Su35 and Mig35 will be continued atleast until 5G alts are in serial production and cheap enough for export etc. Perhaps airframe viability on upgrades will be a factor too.

There will always be jobs and situations where stealth is not needed and is just adding costs where it is not needed... these aircraft will likely remain cheaper to operate than 5th equivalents, so why not keep some on the books.

I'm not sure what will happen with the twin jet Mig 5G. And indeed the single jet Su75.
The Russian list of offerings seems very broad right now.

They certainly are spoiled for choice, but the question really is how much cost in terms of maintenance does this Al-41 engine require and how does it compare with the engines the new MiG will be using.

My suspicion is that people are forgetting Su75 as an unmanned plane for the VVS.

Taking the cockpit and seat out is not going to take 10 million dollars off the price of the unmanned version, so I think an S-70 drone type aircraft is always going to be cheaper that drone versions of aircraft.

Claiming it can be an unmanned aircraft is just normal marketing these days... where is the single seat fighter version of the Yak-130, or its unmanned drone versions?

It is like companies that make VSTOL fighters claim they can operate anywhere...

Assuming Mig produces a good 5G twinengine, I'm puzzled as to where this will fit in with the VVS.

This carrier based twin engined MiG is not an Su-57 size and class aircraft... it is a MiG-35 size and weight aircraft so could be a middle weight with the proper single engined design which everyone seems to be ignoring will actually be a light fighter that is even cheaper to operate.

With a 12 ton thrust engine its max weight would be 16-18 tons or so and will be rather like a stealthy F-16... one LMFS wanted...

1) To me its not really surprise that VTOL fighter is being co0nsidered. (Hello GarryB Razz ) but that MiG is working on that. Unless this is the same virtual team (Sukhoi and MiG is one now) and components will be reused to some degrees from Su-75?

There is a market for VTOL fighters... otherwise the F-35 design would not have been corrupted and it would have ended up being more like Checkmate, they will likely have a few engineers working on VSTOL versions but I rather doubt they will amount to very much because of all the compromises in design and manufacture.

The funny thing is that size of LHDs was increased from Mistrals 18kTons to 40k Tons... now VSTOL fighter. This gets interesting isn't it?

They are planning on VSTOL versions but don't expect anything operational before 2035 in that regard... that needs a lot of testing and tweaking... it is no accident the Ka-52K has an AESA nose and is ready to go now.

since 4 years ago Air&Cosmos publishes info about the new MiG they have been working 5-6 years already

MiG will have been working on light 5th gen fighters and carrier based replacements for its MiG-29KR and replacements for its MiG-31 for decades... but new designs can change a lot of past work and make it a bit redundant.

They should have had a prototype ready by now and not just these plastic models don't you think?

The PAK FA only just entered serial production... they likely only just got funding for the LMFS, and funding for navy planes is pretty notorious...

Single-engined planes were "outlawed" by Gorbachev back in the late 1980´s. One of his one-sided arms reduction efforts to look goods in the west. Back then the military was against it but they couldn´t do much. We in hell should they be opposed to a single-engined fighter today? No need to please Gorbachev.

Aircraft designs are a balance of weight and thrust... with a car or motor vehicle more than one engine is clumsy unless we are talking electric and fossil fuelled, so if you don't have a powerful enough engine for a car you look at turbochargers and other devices to boost power, but with aircraft you have specific sized engines and specific engine counts make sense and some do not.

The only three engined jet fighter that made it into service was the Yak-38 and Yak-38M, but most of the time one or two engines make sense. Four engines for transports and strategic bombers....

Regarding MiG making the Checkmate, well it is not unheard of... the standard Soviet inflight refuelling aircraft is an Il-76 based aircraft called the Il-78 but technically it is a A-50 Beriev design, as is its replacement A-100, and the A-60 is another Il-76 experimental aircraft with an airborne laser mounted in it... so design bureaus can play around with other design bureaus products when suitable, but the commonality with the Su-57 suggests to me that Sukhoi should lead this and make this.

Sometimes you can look at a weapon design and just know it's a winner (and the converse is also true). Call me crazy, but the latest single engine design from Sukhoi has success written all over it.

I agree, I think it is going to sell very well, but is it what the VKS wants?

I find it unlikely that Russia will even lay down a new carrier in the rnct ten years let alone have one bearing completion. They have too much work to do building the middle and upper tear of their navy first (large frigates/destroyers/cruisers etc) to even need a new carrier yet.

Even if they laid one down tomorrow it would not be ready for service till after 2035, but the air component would need to be ready before that and in the mean time could operate from the Kuznetsov. These new planes are high thrust engines and low drag internal weapons designs... I rather doubt a Checkmate could get airborne from the K with 7 tons of weapons and enough fuel to fly 3,000km but then I rather doubt it could get 7 tons of weapons in the three weapons bays anyway...

So on that basis it would seem mig seems to have a long time in which to perfect their 5th gen carrier fighter.

Exactly... right now the carrier aircraft are Su-33 with upgrades and MiG-29KR, and over the next decade they are going to develop a replacement for the MiG-29KR in much the same way Sukhoi put Su-35s into service and then built a 5th gen replacement in the form of the Su-57...

Following the LTS, MiG needed to say they also are doing things, otherwise the silence would be damning. But they have always had studies and ideas, the relevant thing is when the go for the full design and the implementation of the project is given. Still it is not clear that this naval fighter by MiG has any meaningful backing, or that it is in any way better than what already exists. With that layout, it would have limited bay space, probably would demand new engines to be developed and be inferior in capabilities to already existing Su-57. So, why would anyone invest billions on that? I also don't see any fundamental advantage in that layout for a STOVL design BTW...

I really don't think they need to compete with Sukhoi exactly for the same type of planes, maybe looking for some specialisation within UAC makes more sense for the future and makes things easier for the VKS. Regarding tactical aviation, the unification of platforms is totally logical and Sukhoi has come up with a proposal (Su-57 / S-70 / LTS) that is very difficult to beat. PAK-DP is a great program where MiG should focus, and they can make money for their sustainment with the 31BM, MiG-29M/35 sales and modernization, plus doing work as part of UAC Military, even for aircraft that have the Sukhoi name on them. If a new program is started, they will have the option to propose their ideas and, if they are better than Sukhoi's ones, they will have their chance. But as of now they are don't seem to be at the same level, and the military should not pay for that by being forced to buy equipment they don't want.

LMFS wrote:Following the LTS, MiG needed to say they also are doing things, otherwise the silence would be damning. But they have always had studies and ideas, the relevant thing is when the go for the full design and the implementation of the project is given. Still it is not clear that this naval fighter by MiG has any meaningful backing, or that it is in any way better than what already exists.

Yes and no. True we don't know much about financial backing though the first info is 4 years old. There was not yet stated it has to be VSTOL. VSTOL is only an option to be considered. This means to me: if possible we do VSTOL, otherwise why years to talk about that?

To me it is clear it has to be better then 50 years old MiG-29 airframe design. Otherwise why to do anything else? The question why not to use Su-75 variant remains open.

LMFS wrote:
With that layout, it would have limited bay space, probably would demand new engines to be developed and be inferior in capabilities to already existing Su-57. So, why would anyone invest billions on that? I also don't see any fundamental advantage in that layout for a STOVL design BTW...
.

I guess billions or millions were already invested. And Since MiG CEO is Sukhoi CEO. He came from Sukhoi to Mig and back the project is unlikely "partisan party".
Not better? debatable. Russian top brass for some reason wants to build it. Perhaps because "Naval" Su-57 it would have worse characteristic than the land version?
+ would be heavier and required bigger ships.



BTW isnt this MiG similar to the last unrealized Yak-201 model?

GarryB wrote:

competition keeps you on your toes - just ask Mig!

Competition does not help when you specialise in the lower weight class and heaviest weight class of fighter like MiG-29 and MiG-31 and your country decides to focus on middle weight class fighters like the Flanker.

The Su-33 was a joke but still won... it couldn't even carry and use R-77s and the Mig-33 of the time was a fully multirole fighter bomber... the Su-33 couldn't even carry external fuel tanks.

not to mention founding - Competion without founding makes you bankrupt.

I think The Checkmate was a bit of a wake up call for them - I hope.

MiG does not need a wake up call, they need a break and I suspect they got it with the LMFS programme going ahead because they are clearly not getting the export attention the Sukhoi boys are getting.

The Su-75 Checkmate will [most likely] be serially produced by 2026 and the UAC has already said they'll offer export clients a carrier-based version if they so choose. Even if Russia doesn't choose the Su-75 as their light/medium naval fighter, the Indians sure as hell would, especially a 5th generation jet for $30 Million or even $50 Million a piece (the price of the MiG-29K now).

Which means basically there is no current carrier based Checkmate and if there is one developed it will cost more than an equivalent 4th gen fighter model unless they buy hundreds of them. Making a carrier based Checkmate... even assuming they are happy with a single engined model will take time and wont result in something particularly cheap.

GB wrote:

How many countries in the world have aircraft carriers? How many of those countries are US/NATO Vassals and couldn't buy russian fighters even if they wanted to?

It is a small market which is why they are probably considering VSTOL options because that expands the market to countries with helicopter carriers for aircraft carriers.

Personally I think it is not a big enough market to break even on such a fragile expensive aircraft dead end.

unless part of work was already done...

GB wrote:

Claiming it can be an unmanned aircraft is just normal marketing these days... where is the single seat fighter version of the Yak-130, or its unmanned drone versions?

It is like companies that make VSTOL fighters claim they can operate anywhere...

You'd be surprised how much technology of unmanned systems advanced.

GB wrote:

1) To me its not really surprise that VTOL fighter is being co0nsidered. (Hello GarryB  Razz  ) but that MiG is working on that. Unless this is the same virtual team (Sukhoi and MiG is one now) and components will be reused to some degrees from Su-75?

There is a market for VTOL fighters... otherwise the F-35 design would not have been corrupted and it would have ended up being more like Checkmate, they will likely have a few engineers working on VSTOL versions but I rather doubt they will amount to very much because of all the compromises in design and manufacture.

Like VTOL engines in place of pilot cockpit section? for unmanned version? Andy perhaps some engineers could be shared between teams. Im sure that same technologies are shared anyway.

GB wrote:

The funny thing is that size of LHDs was increased from Mistrals 18kTons to 40k Tons... now VSTOL fighter. This gets interesting  isn't it?

They are planning on VSTOL versions but don't expect anything operational before 2035 in that regard... that needs a lot of testing and tweaking... it is no accident the Ka-52K has an AESA nose and is ready to go now.

True that yet all depends on funding...

GB wrote:

since 4 years ago Air&Cosmos publishes info about the new MiG they have been working 5-6 years already

MiG will have been working on light 5th gen fighters and carrier based replacements for its MiG-29KR and replacements for its MiG-31 for decades... but new designs can change a lot of past work and make it a bit redundant.

you mean Ye]ak201 design reborn? check my rpev post pic...

In the meantime, what is yakovlev doing? I'm wondering

Atmosphere wrote:In the meantime, what is yakovlev doing? I'm wondering

Yakovlev Design Bureau (Part of Irkut Corporation) has developed the Yak-130, Yak-152 and MS-21.

Training aircraft Yak-130 and Yak-152:


Now Yakovlev is focused on the development of combat training and passenger aircraft.

They seem to be comfy in the training aircraft niche.

Anyways, anyone notice the massive lifting surface "Checkmate" has for such a small fighter? Just observe the rearwards section.

I have read this.
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tech/russia-sukhoi-checkmate-fighter-jet-fox-news/

Now i must share the pain.

Isos wrote:And to be successful they need to sell at least a hundred of them. Only India or China could potentially buy that much. Smaller countries like Algeria can order a dozen which won't make it a successful program.

China already has deployed their 5th gen aircraft. So if they go for the Checkmate they will want a 100% transfer of technology (ToT). Russia won't agree. Russia refused to sell critical tech related to even Su 35 to China knowing fully well they will reverse engineer the Su 35 and launch a Chinese version of it.

India's economy has been devastated by the pandemic. They are not in a position to order a few dozen Checkmates. If they do for say 50+ aircraft they too will seek massive ToT that Russia won't agree too. For the time being they can only afford Mig 29s that too mothballed ones.

So the major markets that Russia should target are countries in the middle east & north Africa . UAE is already on board, maybe Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, Libya and a few others. the other catchment area should be South East Asia - Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines. By targeting 5-6 counties in these regions Russia can easily sell 100 + Checkmate.

Chinese fantasies on the topic of LTS

RTN wrote:So the major markets that Russia should target are countries in the middle east & north Africa . UAE is already on board, maybe Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, Libya and a few others. the other catchment area should be South East Asia - Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines. By targeting 5-6 counties in these regions Russia can easily sell 100 + Checkmate.

The South American and Central American market is also open to Russia, minus Colombia and Brazil of course. Mexico is a coin toss.

Checkmate, Einstein!

On the air of the American Fox News channel, they said that the new Russian Su-75 Checkmate fighter is capable of flying at a speed twice the speed of light!

With the new engine... Why not?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Yes and no. True we don't know much about financial  backing though the first info is 4 years old. There was not  yet stated it has to be VSTOL. VSTOL is only an option to be considered. This means to me: if possible we do VSTOL, otherwise why years to talk about that?

To me it is clear it has to be better then 50 years old MiG-29 airframe design.  Otherwise why to do anything else?  The question why not to use Su-75 variant remains open.

There have been news of a new light fighter literally since ever, STOVL or not. To me what we have now from MiG is not enough even for a decent speculation...

I guess billions or millions were already invested. And Since MiG CEO is Sukhoi CEO. He came from Sukhoi to Mig and back the project  is unlikely "partisan party".
Not better? debatable.  Russian top brass for some reason wants to build it. Perhaps because "Naval"  Su-57 it would have worse characteristic than the  land version?
+ would be heavier and required bigger ships.

No idea if the top brass wants it. The only half solid statement that we have is Borisov talking about a naval fighter that could be either STOL or STOVL. And that's it.

BTW isnt this MiG  similar  to the last unrealized Yak-201 model?

Both have common elements, which in the age of stealth is almost unavoidable. The tail in the Yak is clearly different, while the new MiG is like the old one, just with side intakes instead of ventral, which makes placing the close coupled canard easier. There are couple of big VLO sins in that layout, too. But as said, if they indeed had some real project running, they would not disclose it in such an inconsequential way. I see PR and little more.

Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Chinese fantasies on the topic of LTS

Very nice model. It seems the R-77 fits in the side bays, that would be good news indeed

LMFS wrote:

There have been news of a new light fighter literally since ever, STOVL or not. To me what we have now from MiG is not enough even for a decent speculation...

work on the new light fighter in 2017 was also not even speculation. Yet you have Su-75.And fighter for the navy has been planned for some time.

LMFS wrote:There are couple of big VLO sins in that layout, too. But as said, if they indeed had some real project running, they would not disclose it in such an inconsequential way. I see PR and little more.

I remember discussions why the new fighter we have Su-57 which fits all. No need for the new light fighter. Suddenly tadaam Su-75 appeared from PR statements. Before lil model was on Borisov's desk tho.


Guess we need to wait and see. The most important thing now is to look what is going to be on Borisov's desk coming years.

PapaDragon wrote:
Photo from exercise Zapad 2029:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:work on the new light fighter in 2017 was also not even speculation. Yet you have Su-75.And fighter for the navy has been planned for some time.

The talk about the single engine light fighter has been ongoing at least since the MiG izd. 33... of course there was talk in 2017, regularly since the beginning of the century there has been talk about the LMFS.

I remember discussions why the new fighter we have Su-57 which fits all. No need for the new light fighter.  Suddenly tadaam Su-75 appeared from PR statements. Before lil model was on Borisov's desk tho.

I don't know other people, but that guy LMFS was probably not among them  

My model was done in 2017 and presented here in 2018. What I noticed after that model appeared at Borisov's desk is that twins to my layout started appearing like mushroom hehehe

Guess we need to wait and see.  The most important thing now is to look what is going to be on Borisov's desk coming years.

He trolled us quite nicely, to be honest. But it was worse for others, the front fuselage of the plane was so close to that of my proposal that some publications out there spent some serious analysis on my humble amateur model as if it was the real deal