Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

Lancelot wrote:It all sounds fine and dandy until you realize a company like Zvezda isn't flush with cash to begin with. They have been bankrupt before. They are the only supplier. And the client needs these gears for serially produced ships for a state defense order. This is not the first time Zvezda are making gears for Project 22350 either. So the client knows they can deliver the product, and the time and cost to make it is well established. They should have a proper long term contract for series production instead of trying to penny pinch and order in single units like this. Long lead items, this is claimed to take 19 months to make, also should be ordered well in advance.

I agree for the need of long term contracts, but if the company is in so dire need of cash it is also possible it has serious management and investment problems, especially with all the products requested by the russian navy (i.e. among the rest, high speed diesels for the 22800 missile corvettes and reduction gears for 22350). The problem is that probably after privatisation in the 90s the production capabilities were never improved, new models were not developed and technical personnel was probably underpaid.

So the only thing they could really build was the very old soviet engines from the 1950s, and at a snail's pace.
Then after finally Russian navy started finding the money  to order new ships, probably Zvezda Management oversold their capabilities in order to win the contracts.

I do not know why there are problems in the 22350 reduction gears production rates, but since they do not want or are not able to improve their capabilities, they should just give back the company to the state or at least to a serious new owner who will need to guarantee important investments to ensure new production lines, new diesel engine design and production rates which satisfy the navy's demands.

The state should not fix their problems if it remains a privately owned company. Better in that case properly bankrupt them and start over.

GarryB wrote:Paying money upfront almost never solves any problems, and runs the risk of corruption... especially with privately owned companies that are in the red.

Nationalise them and then fix them.

Wish the west would hurry up and steal Russias assets abroad... then they can just sweep through and seize the assets and shares of westerners that are holding Russian companies hostage...

Yeah, sometimes nationalising industries is not the ideal way, especially if governmental crooks are sent there to "manage" them, but if it is a strategic industry and the managers are incompetent (furthermore if it is a former state industry which was "privatised" in the 90s) then there is no alternative.

And hopefully national industries nowadays are better managed than in the past.

If it was a privately created industry from the inventive and effort of its founder, and which encountered difficulties because of external factors, then I would say that the state could (and should) help it via providing long term loans with little or no interest.

But since Zvezda was a state owned company founded in 1932 in soviet union (and stolen in the 90s) and now probably just owned (at least partially) by either incompetent people or by crooks who are only descendants or friends of the people who stole it 30 years ago, I would say that there are enough reason to expropriate it. The owners can be paid the same amount of money that was used to "buy" it in the 90s and sell it to the state, or end up in prison for compromising a strategic industry in semi-war times.

To clarify: Stealing a state company is not not private entrepreneurship.

by the way, here below some data I found in Wikipedia, I do not know if the ownership changed after 2011.

(Data as of April 18, 2011 and taken from the official website)

Among the major shareholders of the Company:

OJSC "Hermes Company" (St. Petersburg) - 27.06%
CJSC Depository and Clearing Company (nominee holder) - 45.29%

Like I said, Zvezda is now owned by Ural Diesel Motor Zavod. Which is owned by Sinara Transport Machines. That is part of Sinara Group. It is still a private company but it changed owner.

Sinara Transport Machines also makes shunting and electric locomotives.

They are basically a competitor to Transmashholding. Which owns Kolomna diesel.

Yeah, sometimes nationalising industries is not the ideal way, especially if governmental crooks are sent there to "manage" them, but if it is a strategic industry and the managers are incompetent (furthermore if it is a former state industry which was "privatised" in the 90s) then there is no alternative.

Government and private sector crooks come in two main types... thieves and 5th columnists, but can be all sorts of combinations of both.

In airlines that could be claiming western parts have international support networks in place so it would be cheaper to buy the expensive western parts... for which they get a nice compensation package from the western parts making company. That person could be a government appointed CEO or a private sector CEO.

Or that guy who got Russian funding to develop his amazing new diesel engine for a light training aircraft who insisted in setting up business in Germany... you don't think he was bought?

If it is a strategic industry you promote people up through the factories and you make them managers but part of a Government run organisation like UEC and OAK etc etc.

And hopefully national industries nowadays are better managed than in the past.

Hope should have nothing to do with it... many managers taught the western methods of management should be sent to concentration camps and deprogrammed and turned back into humans.

All human resource departments should be burned to the ground because people are not resources to be used up and discarded.

Your staff is what lets you provide the services or products to your customers and are more important than your tooling and machinery.

If it was a privately created industry from the inventive and effort of its founder, and which encountered difficulties because of external factors, then I would say that the state could (and should) help it via providing long term loans with little or no interest.

Who cares who created the company that currently does the job, if they can't get the job done then there will be a list of other companies wanting the contracts, the problem is when companies expect the contracts because they are in the best position... a bit like a new contract for a fighter plane for Russia... Sukhoi would think it would have that in the bag... now in some companies they will relax because there is no real competition... and that is not what you want because half arsing a job does not deliver good products and good prices in good timescales.

Equally of course when there is cut throat competition then companies will try to undercut other companies or steal technology or engineers and might end up with a contract they are going to lose a lot of money on. You can't run a business that way.

But since Zvezda was a state owned company founded in 1932 in soviet union (and stolen in the 90s) and now probably just owned (at least partially) by either incompetent people or by crooks who are only descendants or friends of the people who stole it 30 years ago, I would say that there are enough reason to expropriate it. The owners can be paid the same amount of money that was used to "buy" it in the 90s and sell it to the state, or end up in prison for compromising a strategic industry in semi-war times.

To clarify: Stealing a state company is not not private entrepreneurship.

Lots of companies have been returned to state ownership because corruption in the purchase procedure was normal back then, which makes returning it to national ownership pretty straight forward.

There is no guarantee that the old managers were corrupt or that the new managers wont be corrupt, but a look at the books at how profits were used and how much of their profits ended up being put back into the business to make it more efficient and able to handle larger jobs and wider variety of more complicated jobs is usually the best indicator, and how wages changed over time for the workers actually doing the work that mattered.

Western companies are so focused on profits for management and investors that they forget who actually does the work.

Fishing out an american sonar buoy.

Apparenly the number of missiles will double from the 5 ship on. Interesting. I wonder how big the changes to accomodate this are.

The 4th unit: ADMIRAL ISAKOV

It is rumored that it will be launched this month.

Krepost wrote:The 4th unit: ADMIRAL ISAKOV

It is rumored that it will be launched this month.

Looking at current progress, I'm betting no earlier than mmmmmehhhh .... 2026 for her to enter the fleet.

Vympel wrote:Looking at current progress, I'm betting no earlier than mmmmmehhhh .... 2026 for her to enter the fleet.

She's been like that for several years. I think they were too busy finishing the Project 20380/5 corvettes and left this for last.

The rumors turned out to be true.

The fourth frigate of Project 22350 will be launched at Severnaya Verf

https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/43377.html

And here is how ADMIRAL ISAKOV looks like now (photo from this week):

It was launched:

When are the ones with the increased VLS count coming?

The-thing-next-door wrote:When are the ones with the increased VLS count coming?

Starting from the next in line, Admiral Amelko, which, according to the plan, should be delivered to the navy in 2026.
Also Admiral Chichagov should be delivered in 2026, while Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov should be delivered in 2027.

All of them should be the improved version with 32 UKSK VLS instead of 16.

In addition it has been signed a contract for building 2 other ships in the northern shipyard (Severnaya Verf), Admiral Gromov and Admiral Vysotsky, to be delivered in 2029, but I do not know if they have already started building them.

There were also discussion for building another serie of 6 22350 frigates in Amur shipyard, but I do not know if and when they will be laid down.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Starting from the next in line, Admiral Amelko, which, according to the plan, should be delivered to the navy in 2026.
Also Admiral Chichagov should be delivered in 2026, while Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov should be delivered in 2027.

All of them should be the improved version with 32 UKSK VLS instead of 16.

You can pretty much forget those delivery dates. They will be lucky to deliver this Admiral Isakov by 2026 let alone those ships.
The superstructure is still unfinished and they will need to do tests once it is finished.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:In addition it has been signed a contract for building 2 other ships in the northern shipyard (Severnaya Verf), Admiral Gromov and Admiral Vysotsky, to be delivered in 2029, but I do not know if they have already started building them.

There were also discussion for building another serie of 6 22350 frigates in Amur shipyard, but I do not know if and when they will be laid down.

Probably after they finish building the new floating dry dock at Amur shipyard.