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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #33

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:32 am

    That's probably because NATO countries are too busy trying to replenish their own stocks which will take a few years and only available alternative was south Korean defense manufacturers

    Orders happened before ukrainian war if I'm not wrong.

    They are clearly diversifying their suppliers in all areas like aircraft, artillery, tanks...

    Few days ago they announced the order of two spy ships from sweeden.

    They are acting like Egypt after Sisi came to power and bought weapons left and right to get ride of their dependance on US.
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    Post  Isos Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:39 am

    Lol those communists love money more than capitalists. At least they could have sold it to the EU which wasn't that much pushing for a coup like the US. So much about Russia's allies.

    Russia needs to stop helping those failed states and just do buiness with who is in charge like chinese... and build nuks because nuks are good allies.

    AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎
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    Dr.Snufflebug


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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:06 am

    Nothing wrong with western weapons. They're great at what they're designed for, and it would be surprising if they weren't, considering the price.

    They are however not designed for dirty attrition warfare against a peer or near-peer opponent, they're not designed to operate without solid air superiority, sustained support chains, etcetera. The thought of any of those things lacking hasn't entered the U.S. or European minds, because the weapons were designed for a fight on THEIR terms/conditions.

    Made this point regarding the M1 Abrams months ago. It is an excellent tank, but was designed by the U.S. for the U.S. That's why it hasn't done that well in the service of nations (an understatement, it's performed abysmally) other than the U.S.

    In U.S. service, with the backup that the full might of the U.S. military machine can provide, it's proven to be fantastic. When that part is left out of the equation it's just yet another tank at best, but really performing worse than legacy machines.

    Or take the lauded Leopard 2, once it entered the scene in northern Syria without the backup and cover, it was swiftly put out of action just as easily as all other tanks thereabouts.

    Apart from the fact that most western hardware since the 1970s has been designed for ideal operational circumstances rather than down-and-dirty actual tough field conditions, you have all this grifting, kickbacks and other forms of MIC corruption that influences the western arms industry. That's why a ridiculously cheap Iranian (!) suicide drone left more of an imprint on the course of the conflict in less than a week than any of the overpriced, frankly hidelously expensive "Switchblades", "HIMARS", "Javelins", "Brimstones" and what have you did for half a year. (*)

    (* of course, UA is bankrupt so it ain't footing the bills, western tax payers are, but still.)

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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:19 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:And already when I mentioned the F-22, I have to write that the talk about that plane stinks even more than the talk about the F-35. If the F-22 was that GOOD, then the USA would have produced far more than 187 (4 lost in accidents) serial planes, but that didn't happen.

    What more, the F-22 can't be updated with new systems (can't take an IRST) and are being retired from service... while the US is restarting F-15 production. Razz

    I don't need any more evidence to know that the Fail-22 is a hyper-expensive boondoggle and a failed weapon system. Over-hyped, under-performing... US MIC standard operating principle.. Maximise profits for the the privately owned MIC companies and enrich the shareholders, all on the publics dime. Razz

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    Post  sepheronx Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:26 am

    F-22 was meant as a air superiority jet of a new generation while F-35 was a more be all end all jet. Issue was price and F-22, if still built, would be far more expensive. F-35 is more of a F-4 of modern era. While it tries to be a jack of all trades, master of none, it is also very overhyped and overpriced. It may have been cheaper overall to go with more specialized jets in various fields.

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:12 am

    Podlodka77:

    People don't believe in the West because magazines and specialized websites propagate it around here... But let's make a counterpoint: F 15 and 16 aircraft are good weapons... the Israelis make good use of them... which I really doubt is that in the hand of the Ukrainians they would have this performance.... The good combat performance of an aircraft depends on several coordinated factors... ranging from training, tactics, rear guard... and even climatological factors... to Ukraine is not in a position to build and manage all this apparatus that would allow maximizing the potential of these equipment. with that... the result of the operation would be disastrous... Facing advanced aircraft with enormous range Sams coverage like the S 400 is certain death...

    The Abrams would apparently be inappropriate given the structure of operation that would not be available to the satisfaction, remember that he is a drinker... and without air cover they would be inexorably destroyed... the Leopard has no salvation in any scenario....

    Any F-15s and F-16s will be manned by NATO pilots and no others

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:17 am

    Isos wrote:Lol those communists love money more than capitalists. At least they could have sold it to the EU which wasn't that much pushing for a coup like the US. So much about Russia's allies.

    Russia needs to stop helping those failed states and just do buiness with who is in charge like chinese... and build nuks because nuks are good allies.

    AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎
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    🛢 🇺🇸 🇻🇪Venezuela and Chevron will sign agreements on increasing oil production

    No, you simply don't understand what's going on

    The plan was always for countries such as Venezuela to take advantage and rid themselves of US sanctions, while carrying on their independent policies. This does advance multi polarity

    The Iranians were angling for the JCPOA deal right at the start of the operation, the West was suddenly in a hurry to sign it after years of deadlock. Indeed it nearly got signed but Israel managed to push through their objection to Washington in the end.

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    Post  Backman Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:40 am

    ALAMO Today at 10:48 am

    A whole of western narrative is made od lies. It is one big lie. There are no values differences for centuries. Rob whoever you can, as much as you can, and as long as you can.

    It took me some years to figure that out but its 100% true. Stalin is propped up as the ultimate evil in western culture. But there is literally no difference in terms of evil with the Anglo axis today. They are more evil than Stalinism was.

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    Post  crod Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:31 am

    I thought the f35 was brought in to: 1) appease the Jews that were screaming blue murder because they were shut out from ever being allowed buy the f22 by congressional legislation and 2) to help subsidise the f22 programme which Obama said was ridiculously too high so they came up with the f35 project that would cost buyers a fortune but make the f22 cheaper. The problem however was that after every military made their requirements known the entire project became the shit show that it is today…though the ‘partners’ are still paying a shit tonne per unit - I guess that part of the project worked out.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:59 am


    You should wake up and smell the coffee bud.
    Sovs are done. Only Nastoychivy, Bystry and Ushakov are left.
    Those didn't have luck, that's all.

    I know the Sovs are largely gone, what I am saying is that a ship to carry a 152mm gun does not need to be an Orlan or Atlant, or Iowa class battleship... the Sovs were not huge and their new Destroyers are likely to be nuclear powered and therefore possibly twice as heavy... with plenty of space for guns and missiles and other bits and pieces.

    A sad picture of a ship sunken at the pier is the fate of this class.
    That could have been avoided, the Chinese giving the best example of operating all their Sovs without much issue.
    Just a lack of luck.

    Totally missing the point of what I was saying... the west bollocks on about swarm attacks without explaining how all these swarm drones are going to operate or get to the target quickly enough to overwhelm the defences... two 152mm naval gun turrets perhaps firing 60 rounds per minute each creates that swarm out to almost 200km... if they wanted they could develop a 203mm version with a land based equivalent to maximise the bang for buck with perhaps a 250km range with 100kg guided shells... what big ship could deal with that sort of threat? Smaller ships would be very quickly overwhelmed and destroyed.

    A win-win situation from Ukro perspective.

    A PR win for the nazis, but an operational loss when they are taken out. And a social cost with no way to supply their troops or civilian population.

    Of course this will be good cover as to why there is no material for civilians that is paid for by foreign aid stole already...

    The Russians have bombed it.

    I mean, I feel sorry for them. None of this should have happened to begin with, but alas.

    It seems ironic, but it is the people of the Ukraine that can stop this war at any time.... all the massive fire power of Russia or the US or HATO means nothing... if they want to continue to resist they can and if they do they will continue to suffer.

    If the Ukraine had agreed to follow through with their promises at Minsk and not shelled the two regions these last 8 years they could have two autonomous regions but still be in control of their borders, but instead they claimed it was Russia invading and the donbass forces were Russians soldiers dressed up as civilians... ironic now isn't it... with Polish soldiers dressed up as Orcs being killed on the front lines, and even quite recently they could have surrendered and let just two regions join the Russian Federation... well now it is four... how many will it be by the end of Winter this year... or Winter next year... or the year after that?

    Yeah, but Zelenksy's party ran on a platform of peace, that's what the people voted for.
    Zelensky lied.

    A lesson for people everywhere.... when you vote you have not completed your obligations as a good citizen... you need to let your politicians know if they break their promises and don't deliver...


    The democracy was gone in 2014 so Russia should have gone in then. The job would have been sorted in less than a week.

    I hope Russia has learned the lesson of dithering and trying to negotiate with vermin.

    There is no justification for such actions.

    What they should have done is what the west has done... declare the coup leaders as illegitimate... and directly supported and supplied the rebels with real weapons and equipment and let them trash the Orc army and foment and support pro Russian groups in the rest of the country to join in and turn it into a proper full scale civil war, which is exactly what it is except instead of being trapped in buildings and burned alive, they would give them guns and allow them to fight back.

    Perhaps some automatic grenade launchers at each end of the street during an SS parade... thin the enemy numbers...

    I already wrote few times and I STAND BEHIND IT, the future of the world is Chinese - end of story.

    It is funny that many discussions I have had with people who are rooted in the west have ended with... well the west are bastards but can you imagine what the world would be like with the "Russians/Chinese" in charge?

    Honestly I think neither the Russians nor the Chinese want to be in charge and that is the whole point... the US wants to be in charge, they want to be in control, they want the world to adopt their culture, the whole point of BRICS is that you have your own culture and values and don't force them on anyone else or make anyone else conform to your beliefs.

    If the US cares so much for alphabet people in Qatar then let them move to the west and be free... problem solved.

    Furthermore, while Russia could have occupied the country much more easily, it would have had to cope with all the insurgents and protest from the Ukrainians lamenting that they would have been deprived from bad Russia of their European dream.

    Exactly... Without 8 years of asset stripping everything that is a problem will become Russias fault...

    And if you think Chinese are any better ruler than US you need to seriously check them first. They are not better in any way than the US or westerners. The way they are agressively entering the african market is the same neo-colonialism europeans used to do since the independance of africa.

    The western view is that they are stealing our markets using our tactics, they are no better than us so fight them and keep us in charge...

    Except they are better than you, they are not colonial, they just want to trade and make money and are happy for those they trade with to make money and grow and develop too.

    Chinese don't arm and don't participate to any war because they don't care about any side. They wil just make business with the winner. That's why they don't care about ukrainian war at all or syrian war or even Lybian war where they had a lot of incestements. They just keep doing business .

    Which means they don't benefit from war and don't create wars or encourage them like the west does... the third world has been ravaged by continual wars separated by insurgencies of factions wanting to swing the country towards this or that colonial power or ideology.

    That's why they have no military alliences. They don't care about military dominance. They will just use money as a tool and it's enough. The fucked up operation of the others will give them more clients. Iraq, Iran, Ukraine... they will all go buy chinese stuff at some point because the other either attacked them or took advantage of them...

    It's a good and solid strategy.

    It is a good solid strategy because they can rely on western colonial powers to **** countries up with war and those countries need trade and commerce to pay for those wars and to rebuild afterwards... they create where the west destroys.

    They are the good guys.

    Their trust in Nato is reducing now that they saw how they sold ukrainians to their MiC. Thry know they are at the same level as ukrainians on US racial scale, not worth a nuclear war.

    But their hatred of Russia is strong so they think the Russians are moving closer to them the same way that HATO has been moving closer to Russia all these decades of peace after the end of the cold war.

    I doubt they will notice the economic recovery in these new Russian regions and will stick to military solutions, which will rob their people of funds for useful things like education and health...


    The Russians could not enter the Donbass war in 2014, they are neither militarily nor economically ready for that.
    However Putin made a serious mistake by stopping the militias at the beginning of September by signing Minsk-1

    His main mistake was accepting the results of the western funded coup in the country as legitimate.

    Too many questions and obvious US takeover of the country like the US takeover of Russia in the 1990s... with the same effects and results... except they didn't have a Putin to save them... and they would never accept Putin as their Putin solution.

    What has happened was inevidible... it was Ukraines problem till it became Russias problem and now Russia is sorting it all out.

    A whole of western narrative is made od lies. It is one big lie. There are no values differences for centuries. Rob whoever you can, as much as you can, and as long as you can.

    And tell them how lucky they have you as a robber, because other robbers wont be so kind and nice to trap you all in a third world existence of poverty.

    The good combat performance of an aircraft depends on several coordinated factors... ranging from training, tactics, rear guard... and even climatological factors...

    A large part of their success is knowing their strengths and weaknesses and not using them in situations where they are likely to be lost... for instance the number of MANPADS in Serbia meant no aircraft operating below 8km altitude, and no helicopters... which seriously effected their ability to ID targets on the ground, but they didn't want to risk losing large numbers of helicopters or aircraft so they flew higher and hit more friendly targets or fake targets because they couldn't ID them properly.

    They are acting like Egypt after Sisi came to power and bought weapons left and right to get ride of their dependance on US.

    Even the US can't afford to buy only US equipment... their new Frigates look rather nice and are made in Italy... compare with LCS from domestic suppliers...

    Any F-15s and F-16s will be manned by NATO pilots and no others

    Yes, because their experience against S-400 and R-37M will be pivotal... Twisted Evil

    When they don't get instructions from AWACS what will they do... more importantly if they do get managed by AWACS... what does that make that AWACS...

    I thought the f35 was brought in to: 1) appease the Jews that were screaming blue murder because they were shut out from ever being allowed buy the f22 by congressional legislation and 2) to help subsidise the f22 programme which Obama said was ridiculously too high so they came up with the f35 project that would cost buyers a fortune but make the f22 cheaper. The problem however was that after every military made their requirements known the entire project became the shit show that it is today…though the ‘partners’ are still paying a shit tonne per unit - I guess that part of the project worked out.

    The F-35 was the solution to the price of the F-22... it was supposed to be the cheaper F-16 to the not a pound for air to ground F-15C... they wanted a smaller lighter aircraft that could be both a fighter and a light strike/attack aircraft, and standardising it across HATO to replace all their fighters and light attack aircraft including Harriers and A-10s was going to mean they would buy 3,500 for the US alone and probably the same again for the rest of HATO and friends like Japan and Israel etc etc...

    The commonality was going to make it super cheap and having a super support system that benefited from everyone using the same aircraft meant spares pools could also be shared saving even more money...

    But they made it cancel proof by making it in places in the US where politicians who could cut the programme were located, who decided on funding.

    Putting factories in low employment areas spreading your supply network all over the country makes it the most expensive and complex that you can possibly make it and is what made the C-17 too expensive to be useful... but it was successful because they kept making them even when the US military stopped asking for them.

    The enormous cost of the F-35 comes from the corruption of the US MIC... and the more HATO buys the better.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:04 pm

     Big_Gazza

    Realistically, the F-15 and F-22 have similar flight characteristics, at least in terms of flight height and flight speed. Where they differ is the supercruise flight. What separates them is the RCS, the armament of the F-22 is in the bomb bay, and the F-22 is a production aircraft that was initially produced with an AESA radar.

    If aviation was really that technologically advanced, then today we would not see the "anomaly" of the production of the predecessor (F-15) compared to the F-22. It is my opinion that there is no radical technological advancement of aviation and that through RCS, AESA , or the placement of bombs and missiles inside a closed bomb bay, only an effort is made to increase the toughness and survivability of the aircraft. Someone tell me that I'm wrong, it's not a problem, although I think that's exactly the core of the problem.
    What happened at "Saki" airport is not Russia's fault, but the fault of the planes as a concept ; the planes are too big, they are vulnerable, there is no radical improvement. I mean all the fighter planes in the world, not only the Russian ones.
    And while in the West, back in the nineties, they made fun of tanks and said that there are a million ways to destroy a tank, now it can be seen that there are also many ways to destroy aviation. Imagine a situation with several F-22s or B-2s at an airport and a kamikaze drone attack on that airport. I'm not referring to wrecks like the Baryaktar, but precisely to small kamikaze-drones. And the development of such systems is yet to come, it is the beginning.

    People have been used to aviation for the past 80+ years, so it's hard for them to accept that after the Second World War a whole spectrum of new weapons systems began to develop and today take primacy - missile weapons of all kinds.
    I always remember the "king" of all TVs from the 80s and 90s, which was the Sony Trinitron. Today, such a TV is outdated, too heavy, and consumes too much electricity. It is my opinion that the development of aviation will have to go in a different direction than the one we see it going.
    And what was an excellent move by Russia was the development and production of an echeloned air defense system.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:47 pm

    Post flamming_python Today at 12:12 am
    Any F-15s and F-16s will be manned by NATO pilots and no others


    Hardly, my friend.
    Those 15/16s will go down like flies.
    Nobody in ze wezt signed up for something like that.
    Each and any military pilot can get a job in the civilian sector with some 30k$ monthly, easily.
    How determined he will be to fly into the gate of Hell?
    How much he should have been paid for that?

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:09 pm

    1. November 30, 08:32,
    updated November 30, 08:39
    Military operation in Ukraine

    The mayor of Gorlovka announced the liberation of the village of Kurdyumovka

    DONETSK, 30 November. /TASS/. Allied forces liberated the village of Kurdyumovka in the Donetsk People's Republic. Gorlovka Mayor Ivan Prikhodko announced this to TASS on Wednesday.

    "Kurdyumovka is now ours," Prikhodko said.

    He added that the liberation of Kurdyumovka provides the allied forces with full control over the Gorlovka-Artemovsk highway.
    https://tass.ru/politika/16459203


    2.

    November 30, 08:44
    Military operation in Ukraine
    The liberation of Kurdyumovka provides full control over the Gorlovka-Artemovsk highway

    The liberation of Kurdyumovka in the DPR provides allied forces with full control over the Gorlovka-Artemovsk said Mayor of Gorlovka.

    https://tass.ru/politika/16459323


    🇷🇺🇺🇦 UAV-kamikaze "Lancet" destroys the Ukrainian MTLB

    https://t.me/intelslava/42076

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    Post  andalusia Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:00 pm

    I want to know is this true that Russia forced African students to fight for Russia in the Ukraine War?


    https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-university-accused-of-pressuring-african-students-to-fight-vladimir-putins-war-in-ukraine
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:07 pm

    Andalusia wrote:I want to know is this true that Russia forced African students to fight for Russia in the Ukraine War?

    Its bullshit.  Your 1st clue was its from the Daily Beast.

    Try looking at the authors feed. All of his articles are anti-Russia & anti-Putin. He's just a white-mans nigger, scribbling what his paymasters tell him.

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    Post  lyle6 Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:13 pm

    Wrong country. Russia has free education for all.

    Enlisting the poor to pay for their education is a proud American innovation.

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:16 pm

    Wow. Did I just hear von der Leyen say that 100,000 UA military personnel are estimated to have been killed?



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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:22 pm

    Dr.Snufflebug Today at 10:16 am
    Wow. Did I just hear von der Leyen say that 100,000 UA military personnel are estimated to have been killed?


    There are those in the West who say that both sides lost 100,000 soldiers each. Brian Berletic talked about this in his last link posted so far and pointed out that even the Russians aren't saying they killed 100,000 Ukrops. On the other hand, Brian says that he believes the official Russian data on the number of Russian soldiers killed - I share that opinion.




    And one more thing to add so that I don't make a new post;

    🇷🇺🇨🇳 Russia and China conducted another joint air patrol in the Asia-Pacific region.
    An air group of Russian Tu-95MS strategic missile carriers and Chinese Hun-6K strategic bombers flew over the waters of the Japan and East China Seas. Russian Su-30SM and Su-35S fighters provided escort for the air group.
    For the first time in the course of joint air patrols, Russian aircraft landed at an airfield in China and Chinese aircraft landed at an airfield in Russia


    https://t.me/intelslava/42079 (the video link is long..)


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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:32 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:There are those in the West who say that both sides lost 100,000 soldiers each. Brian Berletic talked about this in his last link posted so far and pointed out that even the Russians aren't saying they killed 100,000 Ukrops. On the other hand, Brian says that he believes the official Russian data on the number of Russian soldiers killed - I share that opinion.

    The official Russian figures pretty much match the assessments by the BBC and their Russian opposition media partners, based on what they managed to dig up, so yeah.

    I dare say that if Russian casualties had been as high as some of the fantasy figures being floated (notably by the UA MoD, but by others too) then you'd definitely notice it in Russian society in general. Unlike in Ukraine which is under lockdown, things remain fairly normal in everyday society and media in Russia.

    Anyway, very curious that the EU suddenly seems to acknowledge what many have hinted at. Can't help but to wonder why, are they preparing people for something?

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    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:14 pm

    11:03 🇷🇺More than 300,000 reservists called up for partial mobilization completed training in 2 months, they were trained at more than 100 training grounds in Russia and Belarus, 3,000 instructors were involved, Shoigu said.
    According to the minister, more than 8,000 crews of tanks and armored vehicles, artillery crews, air defense, drones and electronic warfare have been trained in the training centers.


    https://t.me/intelslava/42082

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:38 pm

    The EU deleted the estimated Ukrainian death figures from von der Leyens speech, they both cut it from the video and removed it from the transcript. Just an hour after publishing. The hell?

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:40 pm

    Post Dr.Snufflebug Today at 10:16 am
    Wow. Did I just hear von der Leyen say that 100,000 UA military personnel are estimated to have been killed?


    Yup.
    And put the number of 404 civilian deaths at 20k either.
    The Ukro officials already contested it for "mixing the numbers".
    It would be actually funny, if not driven with human blood.
    Ukrs are loosing at all grounds, propaganda one being the most unexpected.
    It is their own bullshit that strikes back. For months they denied the effectiveness of the Russian strikes by giving "zero" casualty ratio almost every time. And now trying to make it 100k Laughing Laughing
    I do not believe in 20k civilians either, more like the confirmed number of military deaths overrun 120k in total. So they are making some preparations for the number.

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    Post  TMA1 Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:52 pm

    I'm not surprised. Modern journalists hate those doing God's work in archiving their bullshit to monitor for changes. Thry often do not even report changes anymore. It is a bleak future for us I fear.

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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:17 pm

    Shoigu: The state defense order in 2023 will be increased by 1.5 times, which will make it possible to provide troops with weapons and equipment by 97%.

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:42 pm

    I want to know is this true that Russia forced African students to fight for Russia in the Ukraine War?


    https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-university-accused-of-pressuring-african-students-to-fight-vladimir-putins-war-in-ukraine

    Nope

    I've done some reading and watching of videos of foreign students in Russia over the past year; never heard anything like that from anyone

    Wow. Did I just hear von der Leyen say that 100,000 UA military personnel are estimated to have been killed?

    Who cares?
    Even if they tell the truth once in a blue moon, it's only a maneuver to try and shore up their credibility and allow them to sneak through more lies in turn

    The EU deleted the estimated Ukrainian death figures from von der Leyens speech, they both cut it from the video and removed it from the transcript. Just an hour after publishing. The hell?

    As they should; this estimate is already well out of date

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