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    Russian Navy: Status and News #5

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:44 pm

    So similar sizes but it indeed seems the advantage is for the USKSK.

    But the UKSK launch system is for land attack and anti ship and anti sub weapons... they are working on an upgraded version for large SAMs but AFAIK it is not operational.


    Maybe the time was needed to override the civilian casualties lock...

    American Navy ships don't have such a thing... or it is automatically on all the time.

    Now seriously, a missile like the 3M54 would give little more than 10 seconds to the weapon systems on the ship to detect, get a firing solution and launch before being hit. For their own good, I hope they have improved massively in their reaction time.

    This was in the late 1980s and they were crowing about it being a phased array radar that could identify targets by counting the blades in their jet engines to determine what the target was... but mistook and Airbus for an F-14.

    More importantly mistook a climbing Airbus for a descending F-14....

    ABM on ships like S-500 isn't needed for Russia since they don't have bases around the world to protect them. Their mainland is protected by land based systems which are better positionned and connected to the ground based OTH radars that see better than any ship mounted radar.

    Their cruisers will still get them (maybe their new ones not upgraded ones) for their anti satellite capability and anti carrier ballistic weapons like those belonging to China.

    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    Not really.... the US system includes a range of different systems some of which are very limited as to which missiles they can carry... most of them started out as Standard launch tubes replacing arm launchers but because Standard is very long because it has a solid rocket booster it was a long narrow missile like Tomahawk and harpoon and ASROC so they started combining them in missile tubes but each version has different capabilities.

    The Russians have the advantage that the Redut system is shorter so can be located in more places on the ship where the longer UKSK wont fit.

    Ideally having a UKSK-M that takes SAMS as well means no more SAM launch tubes and just UKSK-M tubes... but more of them... but it makes sense to still have SAM tubes because for example TOR tubes are small and could be located in shallow areas no other system would fit so you don't waste bigger tubes with little short missiles that barely fill a quarter of their depth.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    There is no situation where you would not want to carry both you always need attack weapons and you always need SAMs.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.

    The size of their tubes limits their options for future missiles.

    Larger calibre tubes means Russia has less tubes but can use bigger higher performing weapons too.

    You don't need 200 launch tubes if Zircon is going to get through most of the time.... you do need 200 launch tubes when your standard anti ship missile is Harpoon.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    They have a large number of different vertical launch tubes and most can't pack any missile.
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:31 pm

    Isos wrote:No genius. It just can't carry russian big missiles. They can create a supersonic missile that fits in their VLS if they want to. But they are not interested by supersonic missiles.

    Rrdut is is for small AD missiles. UKSK is for cruise missiles and can't carry any AD missiles.

    US VLS can pack any missile.

    It's not just a matter of size but also intergration/software/connections.

    US can pack AD missiles with 300km range, quad pack shorter range missiles, long range tomahawks and new stealthy anti ship missile. That's certainly not "only light missiles".

    The VLS dimensions drive the ship design, not the other way around.

    The USA VLS systems built around SAM missiles, in the 80s.

    These simply can't accomodate bigger , long range anti ship , high peed missiles.

    And it is not a problem of "you will make it work", if the diameter and lenght is not there the end result air breathing missile won't have warhead, or has only insiginficant range. Basic engineering problems.


    Same like saying if a mig 21 can have the same capability like a su-35. The dimensions not there.
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    Post  Isos Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:38 pm

    They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:58 pm

    Isos wrote:They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

    Yes and I read somewhere they have given out contracts to look into increasing the characteristics/density of the propulsion material that can increase range as well as speed keeping the profile of the recent launchers. Russian and US stuff is not exactly one to one just like Russian liquid engines being better lb on lb than US ones and US having edge on some other things.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:58 am

    Isos wrote:They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    UKSK is build around kalibr/oniks. Redut is build for 9M96.

    There is incremental improvement regards of connections, new types of missiles and so on.

    The dimensions of the cansiters the same, 40+ years design.

    The same true for the Virignia vs Yassen, the submarine design driven by the need to accomodate the bigger air breathing supersonic missiles.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:19 am

    GarryB wrote:But the UKSK launch system is for land attack and anti ship and anti sub weapons... they are working on an upgraded version for large SAMs but AFAIK it is not operational.

    Not operational yes, and in fact we don't know the size and characteristics of UKSK-M, whether it will be 1:1 exchangeable with the current version or not, etc. I don't have any solid, non contradictory set of statements about it to be honest.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:15 pm

    They have new version of VLS. They are not using the ones from the 80s but modern design build to accomodate any of their missile.

    They have lots of different VLS versions in service and most are limited by their size as to what missile combinations they can carry.

    The purpose of the UKSK launcher was to combine all the different anti ship missile types into a few specific types, and to also add anti submarine weapons and land attack cruise missiles all in one launcher.

    Redut is an attempt to combine S-350 which includes a small short ranged IIR guided CIWS type SAM with the 9M96 type medium and long range missiles essentially equivalent to BUK and Rif-M, but to also carry the large S-400 missiles that the Russians have never had at sea before simply because they didn't have the AWACS support to use missiles against targets that far away.

    They will likely add S-500 missiles for the purpose of dealing with the US using nuclear armed SAMs as hypersonic ballistic anti ship weapons initially and then later proper fully developed hypersonic weapons they will no doubt likely develop eventually.

    The UKSK-M will expand to include SAMs but because of its size can't be used on Frigates or Corvettes, and would not be ideal as the only missile system for other vessels either as it would seriously reduce the number and variety of weapons it could carry.

    Having smaller missile launchers like for TOR and indeed Pantsir means you can locate systems in places where they only take one deck level instead of a half dozen or more so there are more places on the ship they can be located.

    Also with the modular design of some ships even shipping containers might carry small or even large weapons too.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:18 pm

    Not operational yes, and in fact we don't know the size and characteristics of UKSK-M, whether it will be 1:1 exchangeable with the current version or not, etc. I don't have any solid, non contradictory set of statements about it to be honest.

    The line drawing of it that has been posted shows it includes BUK based SAMs as well as Redut type missiles, but also EW items like chaff and flare launchers etc etc.

    I would think it might also carry S-500 type missiles which will likely be bigger than S-400 missiles due to their purpose.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:41 pm



    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 27 E0MBNdzWUAMfOug?format=jpg&name=900x900

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 27 E0Mxy5pVUAAZNrm?format=jpg&name=medium

    Russian Navy: Status and News #5 - Page 27 E0MxzPSVUAApIDf?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Post  RTN Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:26 pm

    Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.


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    Post  PapaDragon Sat May 01, 2021 1:03 am

    RTN wrote:Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.
    ...

    Already posted on different tread couple of days ago
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sat May 01, 2021 1:53 am

    Isos wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    In that regard US system has an advantage and can carry any mix of missile it wants. Russians are more limited.

    The Russian canisters way bigger then the USA oney, check the dimension of the tomahawk vs onyx.

    And ? It can't carry AD weapons. And redut can't carry cruise missiles.

    US don't use oniks. They don't need to design their VLS to carry a missile they don't use.


    The USA needs new, way bigger VLS for hypersonic missiles.

    https://news.usni.org/2021/04/28/cno-hypersonic-weapons-at-sea-to-premiere-on-zumwalt-destroyers-in-2025

    It dwarfs the Onyx.

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    Post  The_Observer Sat May 01, 2021 3:54 am

    RTN wrote:Test launch of a Kalibr cruise missile from a Russian Navy Project 1155 Udaloy class destroyer going spectacularly wrong. The footage shows the weapon, which has been newly introduced to the warship, the Marshal Shaposhnikov, cartwheeling uncontrollably soon after launch. It then crashes into the sea, where it continues to burn, not far from the ship, leaving a boiling whirlpool behind it.



    It's not a failure. It's an emergency "throw test" deliberately conducted on UKSK hot-launch system. @Granger on Twitter

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat May 01, 2021 10:04 am

    LOL! Love the somersaults I've never seen that done before. Very cool and how they programmed it to actually do that is also pretty impressive. Now we just need to see a target get blown to smithereens to see how bit of a fireball and damage that thing causes.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat May 01, 2021 11:50 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Sad to see, but c'est la vie. Sad

    Looking forward to seeing Adm Nahkimov in service with new toys. Very Happy
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    Post  limb Sat May 01, 2021 3:08 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:

    Sad to see, but c'est la vie. Sad

    Looking forward to seeing Adm Nahkimov in service with new toys.  Very Happy

    They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important
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    Post  owais.usmani Sat May 01, 2021 5:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Admiral Lazarev has been sent for scraping:


    I read on bmpd that the cost of scraping is 5 billion rubles.

    Why are they wasting 5 billion on its scraping when they can make a brand new corvette with this money? What benefit would they get from scraping other than a huge pile of rusted metal? If they really want to put this ship away why can't they just tow it to the middle of Sea of Okhotsk and make a nice FHD video of of KH-32 or Kinzhal in action?
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    Post  Hole Sat May 01, 2021 5:59 pm

    Two words: nuclear reactors.
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    Post  owais.usmani Sat May 01, 2021 6:24 pm

    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 01, 2021 8:00 pm

    LOL! Love the somersaults I've never seen that done before. Very cool and how they programmed it to actually do that is also pretty impressive. Now we just need to see a target get blown to smithereens to see how bit of a fireball and damage that thing causes.

    I have seen it done before, but not on purpose... it was a western SSBN missile that did it during a test... not a test specifically to do this, but a normal test where it should have flown to target and hit it.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat May 01, 2021 11:10 pm

    limb wrote:...They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important

    If they want good surface fleet vanilla Gorshkovs are more than enough



    owais.usmani wrote:...I read on bmpd that the cost of scraping is 5 billion rubles.

    Why are they wasting 5 billion on its scraping when they can make a brand new corvette with this money? What benefit would they get from scraping other than a huge pile of rusted metal?...

    It's not rusted metal, it's high quality steel (better than usual warship grade steel in this case) and that stuff gets recycled

    Plus like Hole said, reactors


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    Post  Hole Sun May 02, 2021 3:34 am

    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

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    Post  lancelot Sun May 02, 2021 7:26 am

    Hole wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

    The fuel is typically classified as high level waste and the steel in the reactor is typically classified as low level waste.
    I don't think it can be recycled into other products.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun May 02, 2021 5:44 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:
    Hole wrote:Two words: nuclear reactors.

    I suppose their nuclear fuel would have been taken out long time ago? If yes then should not be a problem.

    The whole reactors are radioactive, not only the fuel.

    The fuel is typically classified as high level waste and the steel in the reactor is typically classified as low level waste.
    I don't think it can be recycled into other products.

    Hundred years, and the reactor is not radioactive any more.

    300 years and the fual can manually handled.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun May 02, 2021 11:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    limb wrote:...They better ramp up production of super gorshkovs  and liders to compensate at several shipyards, but alas, icebreakers and tankers are more important

    If they want good surface fleet vanilla Gorshkovs are more than enough

    Na

    They can do without the Liders this decade, but they really do need Super Gorshkovs.
    In terms of capital ships, Russia is not going to cut it with its Kuznetsov constantly in maintanance, 2 Kirovs one of which will be occupied in modernization this decade as soon as the other is ready, 3 outdated Slavas approaching the ends of their lives, and modernized Udaloys

    Such a force would be sufficient for 1 fleet, but not spread across 2/3

    Half dozen Super Gorshkovs ought to be the aim for the 20s

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