No 2007 vs 2025. I have it that the Mig-35 flew for the first time in 2007. Some say 2009 whilst other believe it to be 2016
The MiG-35 that flew in 2007 and 2009 and 2016 were all prototypes, if you think the prototype that flew in 2016 was the same as the prototype that flew in 2007 I would suggest you go to the technology thread and just look at how far Russian military technology and domestic production of equipment has progressed.
If it was 2009 then its 16 years - still a long gap. A complete generation in fact.
When the US puts F-15s into production why is that all different and somehow acceptable.
The Su-35 first flew in the 1980s as the Su-27M, is it the same aircraft?
Su-75 is single-engined, and that sole fact brings its price down by several mln $. Half the engines, half the hydraulics assisting, half the electric cabling assisting etc.
Different engines have different costs both to buy and for operational use.
If the engine going into Flankers are so cheap why did China.. who bought Saturn engines and operate them in their Su-30MKKs and their Su-35s choose to buy RD-33s for the JF-17 project for Pakistan to be a cheaper single engined F-16 replacement?
I mean if Saturn engines are so cheap the 12+ ton thrust engines of the SU-30 and later model engine for the Su-35 would be ideal for the job... why break the plane by using a rather less powerful engine based on the RD-33... except that the RD-33 was designed from the outset to be a low cost low maintenance engine...
For light cheap aircraft.
There is nothing weird in a fact that it can be much less expensive than hand made MiG-35.
The MiG-35 is a numbers aircraft and its lower costs come from being a numbers aircraft in mass production and serially produced and widely deployed.
If you only buy 6 and only use six then essentially the parts and equipment and systems are custom made instead of serially produced too.
This picture was downloaded from the official MiG website (under construction for quite some time now). The date stamp clearly shows 2007.
I actually have a series of these pics from the same photographer taken on that particular day.
The F-16 first flew in the 1970s so I guess the current models are all 40 years old junk.
Why do you assume the aircraft that flew in 2007 was anything like any prototype they have made since or the 6 serial aircraft they have in service.
When they are talking about putting it into serial production they are talking about more changes and upgrades to the aircraft.
Flights in 2007 and 2009 and even in 2016 and production of aircraft for the Russian air force and operational experience with those 6 aircraft produced for the Russian air force and testing in Syria and Ukraine will have led to experience and testing that will lead to upgrades and changes.
The problem is, do you go half assed and get jets that are mediocre in performance or do you get something good?
Ultimately, the Su-57 is the best option to just keep procuring. As time goes on and production keeps going, it gets cheaper. Unless they keep changing parts.
Russia has something called inflation, and another factor is that the Su-57 contains leading edge technologies that are always going to cost more no matter what.
If Russia could simply produce more heavy fighters as their solution to numbers they should save billions and cancel the Su-75 now before they waste any more money on it.
MiG-35 just doesn't fit the bill currently. If they could make it a stealthy plane and fit a lot of modern equipment into it, like the N036 radar or get a proper working Zhuk A series going, better RD-33 engines and an airframe to make it harder to find, then it may be ideal.
The Su-30, Su-33, Su-34, and Su-35 are all not stealthy either so cancel them and save money too?
It's hard to justify the MiG-35 now when Russia has something better and within the same size too (Su-57 is rather small compared to the other sukhoi jets).
It is easy to justify it... it is exactly what they need right now... an affordable aircraft ready for serial production...
The Su-75 makes more sense than MiG-35 at this point.
The Su-75 hasn't even flown you... you might as well say Trump should offer F-35s to Russia for their light fighter gap...
At least it has flown. At least it is in serial production.
But the fact is that the MiG-35 is easier to manufacture in quantity right now than the Su-75, of which there is only one aircraft, and if it were decided on, it would take several years for it to be able to form a squadron.
The Su-75 is vapourware... it hasn't even flown yet.
It's simple: one aircraft, the MiG-35, is already tested and ready to be manufactured in quantity; the other, the Su-75, has not even finished its tests.
The Su-75 has not even started its tests yet, it is vapourware...
They have already changed its design a couple of times which suggests it is still a fashion accessory.
The thing is that Russia is not the USSR and it will not subsidize other countries jet adquisitions.
I agree, no handouts... they eventually come to expect everything for free and usually have tantrums when they end up having to pay for things.
In my opinion Russia should buy more MiG-29 K and some more 35, but it is understandable that the priority are Flankers and then the Su-75.
The MiG-35 is supposed to be upgraded to be carrier capable if required so buying multiple batches of the MiG-35 over the next few years will not only fill out frontal aviation, but it will also allow coastal naval units to have aircraft that can operate from carriers and from land.
The facts of the matter is that the model shown by MiG is everything a light 5th gen fighter should be... it actually looks like it is light and very much looks like a LIFT with stealth features, which is probably the best solution to the problem.
Going the other way does not work because stealth cannot be added to a design, you have to start with a stealth aircraft and that is what they have done.
I actually suspect the MiG single engined 5th gen fighter will be cheaper than the Yak-130 and will be exactly what they want.
The Russian AF will certainly test the Su-75 but who knows when that is going to be flying.... so many cooks putting ingredients into that cake... it may never be ready.
China is taking the market of cheap red light fighter with the JF-17, and maybe the J-10 (as with Pakistan).
There is a lot of talk about that but are they actually selling them?
The thing is that most countries are weak and suceptible to western pressure and sanctions to just buy them (Argentina being a close example).
The west was powerful because it controlled international commerce, but now alternatives are being created for BRICS, and with using their own currencies or even barter the west might not even know what anyone is buying or not buying.
Plus with massive US tariffs on foreign products the days of worrying about getting kicked out of the lucrative US market will be over soon enough.
The EU is descending into chaos with their energy policy in tatters... they were even hoping for Lithium from Ukraine for their future and that is now over.
If the MiG bureau of the UAC develops the PakDp,
MiG is already confirmed to be making the MIG-UTS light trainer, the PAK DP high speed interceptor to replace the MiG-31, and now it seems serial production of the MiG-35.
If the Russian military wanted cheap they could have ordered the MiG-29M2 a decade ago, but they want quality that is affordable, which means the MiG-35 is the only game in town.
You can bleat about the Su-75 being better... without knowing very much about the aircraft that will actually be flying eventually, but that is just Sukhoi marketing fluff.
but if it only sukhoi who is making them,
Sukhoi is a design bureau that is a division of UAC... it makes nothing.
Ru navy though should stick with the Su-30 / MiG-29K combo.
Sukhoi will almost certainly be working on a carrier based Su-57... and MiG will be working on a twin engined light carrier based fighter to replace the MiG-29K2... because that is what design bureaus do.
What these nations need much more than MiG-35's, is an economy. Russia doesn't seem to understand this.
What do you think BRICS is?
Syria needed Russian, Chinese and Iranian investments. These countries could have opened up manufacturing of goods, construction materials, security investments, etc etc.
And what would have just happened to those investments? You have to win the war before you rebuild and fix... if Syria kicks Russia out then fixing Syria will be Turkeys problem... what sort of half arsed job are they going to do? Might even steal a few oil wells and arable land if they can... the Syrian people are going to regret this but Russia had no say.
Instead, no one did anything and the country fell because soldiers being paid $10 a month wont give a shit about their nation.
If they don't care, why should anyone else?
MiG-35 wouldn't do shit for Syria or wont do shit for Venezuela or Cuba.
Taken on their own that is true, but no one is suggesting that selling random countries MiG-35s will protect them from the evil empire of the west.
And with that said, if they did have MiG-35's, they wouldn't be able to afford to fly them.
That is the point... they would be able to afford to fly them.
Take economists to check what Russian allied nations lack in the respective country,
Why not a barber or a plumber to decide what nations need to defend themselves from the colonial west. WTF would an economist know about it?
Economists have been running German and British military funding for decades now... I guess they are in amazing shape are they?
This in turn will help expand Russian production outside, help create goods these nations need and then able to use themselves and export what they don't need, and then boom, they have an economy. Doing so, makes it less likely the people of these nations fall victim to what the enemy wants.
You do understand even poor countries have economies and don't need Russian economists telling them what they should buy or should not buy or make or should not make for themselves.
Any country can fall victim to evil. That is the nature of evil.
Often their best way to avoid attention is to buy MiG-35s instead of Su-35s... which will grab the attention of the west.
What Russia did was giving a chance to Syria to fight back. It is not soviet union that wasted a lot of resources to maintain ungrateful leeches.
Syria has been unable to do it.
A lot of the population in Syria preferred the beheading terrorists to Assad.
An that is the way it should be... it is the Syrian people who decided and the Syrian people who live with that decision.
Back on topic: the su-75 prototype has not yet done its first flight. After that it will be challenging to enter service before 4 years.
More like 8 to 10 years and a situation made worse by the fact that it probably uses parts and equipment used to make the Su-57 which will struggle to meet the needs of the Russian AF, let alone any export orders they might be getting over the next decade.
Yes in paper the Su-75 will be a good airplane and better than the Mig-35 but it is not ready for serial production now and will not be for at least other 3 years. (But there could be an initial small batch production if the flight tests are promising).
The Su-75 has a completely different design to the Su-57, with different control surfaces and levicons and the shape and number of engines... the flight tests will take 10 years to test everything and make sure it is safe.
And since you criticise a lot the radar, India could also be interested in putting there their own radar.
MiG does not produce AESA radars, but if that is your only problem then they are going to need a solution in that regard whether they make MiG-35s or Su-57s or Yak-130Ms with AESA radar pods.
I was just getting back on topic + I also pointed out the history of the Mig-35 dating back to 2007. That's all
The history of the Su-35 goes back to 1988 with the Su-27M.
Some here claimed that the Su-75 may only fly in 20+ years time, but judging by the Su-35S's first flight (19 February 2008) and the Su-57's (29 January 2010), the Su-75 may just be around the corner
You are a poor judge then... the Su-35 and Su-57 were Russian Air Force funded programmes. Su-75 is a committee designed programme. The Russian military is not funding it.
As far as the Zuk AESA radar is concerned: I'm not criticizing the radar at all. What i have said - judging by the Indian feedback in 2011 - is that the RD-33MK engines may not have been able to supply enough power for all the systems on the Mig-35 - including the radar.
The engines don't use thrust to generate electricity.
The Indians clearly stated that the Mig-35's engine was under-powered and the radar was also performing below spec.
They also picked a 250 million dollar aircraft for a 10 billion dollar fighter aircraft programme.... and bought 36 aircraft for 8.4 billion.
India has many western funded newspapers and think tanks happy to piss all over Russian technology to earn their western funding.
It will be very interesting what the Indians will have to say this time around.
They don't want to buy MIG-35s so there will be an excuse given to explain why they choose Rafale again and have to spend 30 billion to buy 90 planes that will all be made in France with zero technology transfer or made in India elements.
As you can see, the Venezuelan Air Force has no problem flying its Su-30. And that is not a cheap plane to maintain. Furthermore, if that were a problem, having a cheaper plane would be a help.
The fact that they could operate F-16s with US supplied parts suggests Russian planes should not be a problem because we know how the US likes to gouge countries with support contracts for the products they rent.
Just look at the example of Argentina, where people were constantly arguing that there was no money, that it had many, more important economic problems, etc., etc. But in the end, 24 F-16 planes were bought and no social chaos occurred.
If Argentina selected the MIG-29M2 and ordered 48 planes for 5 billion dollars the western media would inform us of the fact that Argentina is poor and simply cannot afford that price or even to operate such aircraft and that it is all a scheme by Russia to put Argentina into a debt spiral so they can start making demands and seize resources when they can't pay.
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Eugenio Argentina
it is the same shit. How can you call mig 35 a new aircraft ?
