@Garry: what bugs me here is with the current momentum, at when Su-75 can begin to be employed en masse in Russian air force as a light fighter like MiG family, and during that time window whether MiG in general and MiG-29/35, in specific, can make enough move to emerge as an effective and popular stopgap 4++ fighter like Su-27...37 have been doing.
Emotionally I feel a strong sentiment for MiG bureau, it was a legend during the cold war but after 1991 lost the limelight to Sukhoi.
I see that Garry's gaslighting on this theme has reached new heights. @GarryB You should reconsider temporarily closing this topic, since there's no relevant news about the product. It will also be beneficial for your mental health.
Probably posted here before? The one major structural difference not shown here was the deletion of the auxiliary intakes of the Mig-29. They actually painted fake intakes on the Mig-29M prototypes for obvious reasons. Back in 1988 they planned two seater versions of both the Mig-29M and the Mig-29K, but both projects were canceled before construction could commence. Interestingly the mock-up of the two seater Mig-29K was a stepped arrangement that provided a much better view from the rear cockpit.
Dumb counter argument. Su-30, Su-34 and Su-35 are and have been in production for more then a decade. MiG-35 and MIl Mi-38 have yet to even start or just starting and what looks to be more and more low serial production in case of Mi-38.
Both are in low rate serial production... do you think a factory producing aircraft in low rate serial production makes an aircraft and then swaps out everything and then makes 20 or 50 of a different type and then swaps everything back and makes another single aircraft that they are making in serial production?
The factory that makes the MiG-35 is likely also the factory that made MiG-29Ms for Egypt and Algeria and also MiG-29Ks for India and Russia... they will be anticipating either a serious ramp up in production or a shift to production of another aircraft type.
The decision is up to the customer.
The factory that makes Il-96s was not making very many at all per year but now they will be working hard to ramp up production as well as modify and upgrade their production capacity and the products quality.
No, they don't. Unless you live in alternative realty
They wanted MiG-35s but they were not ready and the high cost of AESA radars... when they are first used... is rather more expensive than either country wanted to pay... so they got MiG-29Ms... but if the MiG-35 is just a MiG-29, then a MiG-29M must also be a MiG-35 by your logic.
no the mig-35 as a 4th gen aircraft is not the answer to another country's 5th gen aircraft lol. Maybe the Mig-35 can go compete with the hurjet
The MiG-35 will be using their newest AAMs including the R-37, which was designed to defeat bombers and large aircraft like AWACS and inflight refuelling tankers and JSTARS type aircraft. All of which should be easily detected by a MIG-35 at maximum range and be able to engage them too.
Rather soon they will likely have super long range hypersonic scramjet powered AAMs too, which will further tip the balance further away from western air forces.
A Yak-130 could take off and climb to altitude and launch such a missile based on information from other platforms and the AD network, but the MiG-35 will be more versatile and not that much more expensive to buy and operate.
If we look at Boeing commercial aircraft... what sort of state will their military aircraft be in?
More importantly, will their AD shoot down their own fighters when the skies are flooded with aircraft and drones from both sides?
That is why it's called an "advanced trainer" and not a "basic trainer".
It is too expensive to be the only jet trainer they operate so the band aid solution was to keep using the L39s till a solution could be found. SR-10 was not accepted and they said a MiG-AT simplified with a single engine that the Yak-130 would be using two of was their solution in 2018, but of course it would take time to modify the design and get it into serial production, so they could have an affordable numbers trainer as well as a lead in fighter trainer in the form of the more sophisticated but also more expensive Yak-130.
Don't worry I'm not trying to push it as a replacement fighter for the Mig-35. I'm just saying it is capable of being used as a light fighter.
I am sure Yak are pushing it as hard as they possibly can, but the reality is that taking a small plane and trying to get it to do harder tasks is pretty much what they did to the F-35 and it ended up an expensive mess.
It would make more sense to use the MiG-35 because there is more room for growth potential and a bigger radar and it already has the self defence avionics such an aircraft would require.
The Yak-130 without modification would be a cheap light fighter but that would only suit a small country whose potential opponents don't have an airforce.
To make it a decent light fighter would make it heavier and even slower and rather more expensive, but not cheaper than something like a MiG-29M.
A MiG-35 is not as cheap to buy, but is more capable.
I would think a lesson from the Ukraine war was that trying to save money by not upgrading stuff will cost more in the end... Moskva probably needed a decent overhaul and upgrade of her firefighting equipment etc etc. As well as newer more capable AD systems.
Do you have a price on each of these engines? Perhaps two RD-33MK's would be more expensive than one AL-41/51?
Perhaps, but as I keep trying to tell you, the MiG is the low fighter... the cheap numbers fighter... if the Flanker engine was cheaper then when China was making a cheap light MiG-21 like single engined fighter they would have used the Al-31/41/51 family of engines... but they didn't. They chose the RD-33 engine with the gearbox shifted to a more suitable position for maintenance on their single engined aircraft and called it the RD-93.
Suggests it is not just cheaper but also reliable enough to fit to a single engined fighter.
Yes they bought the more advanced F-16 instead of wasting their money on a modernized F-5 (you get the picture?).
The countries that bought the F-5 generally did so because that was what America decided they were allowed to buy. Which is why some countries bought French instead...
As far as I know they both opted for the much cheaper Mig-29M2 instead...
But you say they are all MiG-29s anyway...
@Garry: what bugs me here is with the current momentum, at when Su-75 can begin to be employed en masse in Russian air force as a light fighter like MiG family, and during that time window whether MiG in general and MiG-29/35, in specific, can make enough move to emerge as an effective and popular stopgap 4++ fighter like Su-27...37 have been doing.
The reality is that the Su-75 is an aircraft that is going to be developed by committee and if India ever joins that committee the development time is going to blow out to an enormous period of time. I rather suspect Sukhoi will be smart and make a version for the light 5th gen role for the Russian military, but the countries involved in development will also get a say in where it goes too so even when it is flying and is approaching potential for serial production the Russian military will want to test it and will also want to test other types developed by other bureaus... we know MiG has a single engined design and a twin engined carrier based design it could put forward for the job, and I would think Yak probably have a single engined fighter that might be a scaled up Yak-130, and perhaps a multi engined VSTOL type fighter too... and who knows who else wants to throw their had into the ring... that is going to mean testing and delays while the Air Force fully figures out all the features it will require, so we are probably talking about a good 10 years before serial production even becomes an option.
With the Sukhoi they will obviously have other customers for the aircraft or something like it so serial production will effectively be paid for which would be a huge plus for the Su-75, but I suspect they will want to have lighter fighters in service sooner than 2034/35, so if they put MiG-35s into serial production MiG can use the income and experience of getting it serial and solving any problems that might pop up or adding capabilities for service use as well as developing their 5th gen light fighters for land and carrier use. The production facilities for the MiG-35s for domestic use and of course for export... once it is mature and paid for the Indians will no doubt buy some to replace their MiG-29s and there are likely a few other countries around the world that might be interested in a lighter fighter that is cheaper to operate than the current heavier or any western types.
This would put Yak on the back foot, but I think their best be would be light fighter kits for sale to current Yak-130 operators... a sort of jet powered step up from the super tocano (Spelling). With glide bombs and modern AAMs they would be rather potent little aircraft and with AESA radar and EO pods for use against ground and air targets they would be quite interesting for air forces across Asia and Africa and central and south america. Smaller countries could use them as trainers and fighters, while larger countries can use them for numbers... with the expensive fighter being a MIG-35 or Su-35 depending on their needs and situation.
Emotionally I feel a strong sentiment for MiG bureau, it was a legend during the cold war but after 1991 lost the limelight to Sukhoi.
The shift to me appears to be more political than anything else...
I see that Garry's gaslighting on this theme has reached new heights.
I don't know what gaslighting means. We are all electric here in NZ. I am just giving my opinion. I realise in the west where you come from having your own opinion is not allowed...
It will also be beneficial for your mental health.
Hahahaha... I understand there is a lot of hate directed at the MiG-29... the main problem was that the East Germans use of the aircraft led to the west getting their hands on them and actually training against them for a decade, which meant when the same imperial west attacked iraq and serbia they were familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of that model of aircraft.
Interestingly it was their experience against MiG-29s that led to the west accelerating the AMRAAM programme because they knew if they fought with Sidewinders in WVR combat they would lose too many planes. Of course the serbs had broken MiGs and people went to jail for negligence and you still blame the aircraft for not taking down all of HATO.
Whatever.
Back in 1988 they planned two seater versions of both the Mig-29M and the Mig-29K, b
The MiG-29M and MiG-29K from 1988 is nothing like the MiG-29M2 and MiG-29KR and MiG-35 of today.
For a start the three new designs use the same two seat airframe and the same two seat canopy design, while the MiG-29M and MiG-29K from 1988 were single seat single canopy designs, presumably with a two seat version that likely would not have a normal radar or a reduced size radar.
The current MiGs are redesigned to allow more internal fuel without ugly external tanks scabbed on like the newer model F-16s use.
If the current MiGs used the same stuff the 1988 MiGs used... well they couldn't... where would they get 3 1/2 inch floppy disk drives and tape drives, and there were certainly no LCD multifunction displays in 1988... they were CRT and rather bigger and heavier than LCDs.
But keep up with the bullshit... I have learned to ignore most of what you say now anyway.
I don't know what gaslighting means. We are all electric here in NZ. I am just giving my opinion. I realise in the west where you come from having your own opinion is not allowed..
Did you move to the moon in the meantime, since when i checked last time NZ is one of the Five Eyes countries? It's as west as it comes. You guys are so deep in US's ass they would have to pull you out by shoelaces.
Of course the serbs had broken MiGs and people went to jail for negligence and you still blame the aircraft for not taking down all of HATO.
Our planes were in poor state thanks to Russia, that had put up sanctions on us together with NATO countries. But, you know this already. It is a pity that Vladimir left you as an administrator. You're turning this place into a cesspool, slowly but surely, with your antics.
they said a MiG-AT simplified with a single engine that the Yak-130 would be using two of was their solution in 2018
Why do you keep pushing this lie? Do you think people are going to believe it, the more you repeat it!
I am sure Yak are pushing it as hard as they possibly can, but the reality is that taking a small plane and trying to get it to do harder tasks is pretty much what they did to the F-35 and it ended up an expensive mess.
Some more BS. The fact is Mikoyan presented a pathetic plastic model that represents a stealthy Yak-130. Clearly they ran out of ideas long ago.
It would make more sense to use the MiG-35 because there is more room for growth potential and a bigger radar and it already has the self defence avionics such an aircraft would require.
The Mig-29M/35 is the last gasp at modernizing the Mig-29. The design has reached the end of the road. A bigger radar would make the radar problem even worse as the RD-33MK does not deliver enough power for the current AESA and all the other systems as is. That is why they're still using the Zhuk.
I would think a lesson from the Ukraine war was that trying to save money by not upgrading stuff will cost more in the end...
I think one of the lessons from the SMO is that the Mig-29/35 was not deemed suitable as it is still nowhere to be seen.
Perhaps, but as I keep trying to tell you, the MiG is the low fighter... the cheap numbers fighter...
Yes we've been through the cost thing plenty of times, but at 30-35 million the Su-75 is even cheaper and better suited as the numbers fighter with it's single engine design.
I have learned to ignore most of what you say now anyway.
Good, (why are you responding then?) because very soon you may start crying like a 2 year old again because I don't respect you enough.
One of the first real tests for the Mig-35 was in 2011 during the Indian MRCA competition. The MiG-35 was pitted against the Typhoon, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, JAS 39 Gripen, and the F-16 Fighting Falcon. It was a large program for 126 multi-role combat aircraft for the IAF.
However, during the competition India became very frustrated with the problems of the aircraft’s Zhuk AE AESA radar being not able to achieve the advertised maximum targeting distance during tests. Radars are by design power hungry and the then relatively new RD-33MK engines were unable to reach sufficient thrust according to the Indians. The result was that the MiG-35 made an early exit from the competition.
Since then the Mig-35 has struggled to find any customers despite some eager initial interest. Most have now bought the cheaper Mig-29M2 or opted for the larger Sukhois instead.
More recently a similar competition was once again launched in India, with very much the same fighters pitted against each other. Hopefully this time the Mig-35 can do better - but only time will tell.
Like the Mig-29 the RD-33 engines have reached the end of there development potential, but there are plans to use components from the AL-41 engines to try and develop a new version of the RD-33. The AL-41 and AL-51 engines produce more or less double the thrust of what the latest RD-33MK can achieve.
Did you move to the moon in the meantime, since when i checked last time NZ is one of the Five Eyes countries? It's as west as it comes. You guys are so deep in US's ass they would have to pull you out by shoelaces.
Enormous egos and boasting has never impressed me so when most Americans start to talk... the ones that are tourists anyway... I tend to stop listening.
BTW hilarious coming from a Serb...
Our planes were in poor state thanks to Russia, that had put up sanctions on us together with NATO countries.
That is a good excuse... make it up yourself?
Because I seem to remember there were corruption charges laid... so why would they do that if the problem was sanctions?
Some more BS. The fact is Mikoyan presented a pathetic plastic model that represents a stealthy Yak-130. Clearly they ran out of ideas long ago.
Incredible... the criticisms you MiG haters have of the MiG-35 is that it is too big and it has two engines and that a Yak-130 with a single engine would be better, and they come up with exactly what you claim would be ideal and it is still wrong.
You are like the western media talking about Russia or China.... nothing they can do is right.
The Mig-29M/35 is the last gasp at modernizing the Mig-29.
Yeah, like the Su-35 is the last gasp of the Su-27... or should I say the MiG-29 because aerodynamically the Su-27 is a copy of the MiG-29.
A bigger radar would make the radar problem even worse as the RD-33MK does not deliver enough power for the current AESA and all the other systems as is. That is why they're still using the Zhuk.
I am not suggesting the MiG-35 needs a bigger radar... it already has a bigger radar than anything you could fit on a Yak-130.
Yes we've been through the cost thing plenty of times, but at 30-35 million the Su-75 is even cheaper and better suited as the numbers fighter with it's single engine design.
And in 20 years when it has its first flight it might be worth talking about, but until then the MIG is the only game in town.
Good, (why are you responding then?)
Someone needs to counter your anti MiG propaganda with common sense.
because very soon you may start crying like a 2 year old again because I don't respect you enough.
Couldn't give a shit about what you think, your mind is warped.... shall I send you a dolly so you can show everyone where MiG touched you?
However, during the competition India became very frustrated with the problems of the aircraft’s Zhuk AE AESA radar being not able to achieve the advertised maximum targeting distance during tests. Radars are by design power hungry and the then relatively new RD-33MK engines were unable to reach sufficient thrust according to the Indians. The result was that the MiG-35 made an early exit from the competition.
The whole programme was a fix to buy Rafales for less than they were offering them. In the end the entire exercise was a total waste of time and money... the Indians wasted a decade pissing around and surprise surprise they ended up picking an aircraft for a 10 billion dollar contract that was never going to match the budget.
They ended up buying 36 Rafales for 8.4 billion when the contract for 10 billion was supposed to cover 126 aircraft in total.
They ended up screwing themselves... and the punchline is when they finally used their Rafales with their amazing ordinance they missed their ground targets using their air to ground weapons they thought were amazing.
The problem appeared to be the world is 3 dimensional... CEPs are spherical and at high horizontal speed if you miss the target on the top of a hill and it comes in 4m too high you can miss the hilltop completely and your bomb lands harmlessly a huge distance away even though it missed the target by 4m...
More recently a similar competition was once again launched in India, with very much the same fighters pitted against each other. Hopefully this time the Mig-35 can do better - but only time will tell.
No aircraft has ever had initial problems... the Su-57 needed structural reinforcing didn't it? The Su-27 had an almost complete redesign... aerodynamic and structural...
Like the Mig-29 the RD-33 engines have reached the end of there development potential, but there are plans to use components from the AL-41 engines to try and develop a new version of the RD-33.
Bullshit. Klimov and Saturn have their own engine development projects...
But they should really talk to Yakovlev because it seems the two engines in the Yak-130 can power ESM pods and a EO targeting pod and an AESA radar all at once... fucking amazing really.
The AL-41 and AL-51 engines produce more or less double the thrust of what the latest RD-33MK can achieve.
And the original Al-31 produces 50% more thrust, yet when China and Pakistan were thinking about a new engine for a single engined fighter in the MiG-21 like role that could replace or suppliment the F-16 which was too expensive for Pakistan to operate they chose the RD33MK which China and Pakistan didn't actually use, instead of the engines for the Flankers... which China did use in its Flankers.
Sounds a bit strange for them to use such a useless underpowered engine when the much more powerful engine of the Flankers was already in use by China with knockoff versions already in development... yet they bought a modification of the RD-33 and moved the gearbox to suit their new single engined fighter.
It will be interesting to see the PAK DP (Izdeliye 41) initial flight and watch the reactions of those inclined to be "MiG haters". If MiG truly has no talent left, why are they tasked with developing the Izdeliye 41?
To be honest, we should all be able to admit that MiGs problems are not intrinsic, but are an unfortunate outcome of the collapse of the post-Soviet MIC, a lack of investment for a 20-year span, and the products they were tasked with the Soviet period were generally out of favour with the air force brass. Sukhoi got the main contracts, MiG got the scaps. Foreign sales can keep an enterprise above water, but it can't fund new developments without Russian government funding. Blaming MiG for circumstances outside their control is too harsh.
Given that the Russian aerospace sector is now consolidated under the UAC umbrella, MiG should be able to have access to whatever talent and resources it requires to complete the projects assigned to it. The RuAF wouldn't entrust the Izdeliye 41 to a design bureau that doesn't have the chops to get the project done, and Sukhoi, despite their total dominance in the heavy fighter category, has zero experience with M3 fighters. This expertise creates a niche for MiG that likely can't be challenged by their bigger competitor.
Waiting for initial look at PAK DP (and Tupolevs PAK DA).
The whole point of the MiG-35 and the Su-75 is for a lighter cheaper to operate numbers aircraft.
The only question is how urgently do they want the numbers... if it is urgent then the MiG-35 is the only game in town and it is the closest to being ready to go.
The whole point of OAK or UAC was to have a company for all the design bureaus so they don't end up with death spirals where the success of one company for whatever reason does not lead to them gaining too much political and economic clout as to dominate in all development fields and end up crushing the other design bureaus and just taking over everything.
Russia is not served by having Sukhoi doing everything... and Sukhoi certainly would if given the chance.
The one thing they have not done well is the cheap numbers types, which they are trying to enter the market with the Su-75.
If it was just Sukhoi I would have confidence they can do a rather good job, but I suspect their choice of expensive engine will limit their ability to be MiG-21 level cheap... and it also means their new fighter is going to be about 18- 20 tons, which is not a particularly light fighter.
Again the discussions with LMFS where he complained that the MiG-35 was 13 tons empty and therefore was too heavy to be a light cheap fighter led to talk of a lighter aircraft and Yak-130s were mentioned because every country on earth talks about LIFTs being used as light fighters... except the only country that ever really managed that was the US with the T-38 and F-5 really. A few smaller countries use Super Tucanos and British Hawks for the light strike role, but none of these are really actually that cheap and not really capable enough to replace first line light fighters like MiG-29s and F-16s.
With an AESA radar and wingtip EW pods and an EO targeting pod similar to Damocles or Lantirn III or something then it could be useful for some very light roles against drones and enemy helicopters, but not so great for use against an enemy force with air power.
A MiG-35 can accelerate to altitude and supersonic speeds to add reach to its missiles... air to ground and air to air... as well as its glide kit equipped dumb bombs...
You don't need an Su-35 to launch bombs with glide kits, and you don't need 14 weapon hard points to carry a couple of glide bombs and a couple of AAMs and an anti radiation missile or two.
The model that MiG showed is exactly what the Russian military has been asking for... and the development of all its parts like radar and engine and other systems offer a chance to further develop the systems fitted to the MiG-35 in service... meaning as they mature the new light 5th gen fighter and get it close to serial production level at the same time they can upgrade the MiG-35s in their air force as they are produced.
Unification with the MiG-29K design means extra can be made for the navy if needed, for use on land and at sea.
From what I have read about the incident in Syria, the MiG flys faster as it lands which makes it harder to land on the carrier, but the lower flight speed of the Su-33 means if it catches a cable and the cable breaks it often cannot then fly through and come around again because of its size and weight.
Cables are carried on aircraft carriers because in normal operations they sometimes do break eventually, but in this case it was the arrester gear that was faulty and it was not feeding out cable at the rate needed to bring the aircraft to a stop in the space available so even new cables were snapping.
By the time they realised it was not a cable problem, but it was an arrester gear problem it was too late... the Su-33 had already crashed and the MiG didn't have enough fuel to reach a land base.
Obviously there was a procedure issue... when this happens launching another aircraft with external fuel tanks full and a buddy refuelling pod to fly with the aircraft trying to land to top it up and fly to an air base to land normally should have been what they did.
Arrester gear problems can't be fixed at sea... just like transmission problems with your car can't be fixed on the side of the road.
Arrester gear settings will be different for MiG-29Ks and Su-33s because they weigh different amounts and have the same space where they have to stop. Different aircraft weights and loadouts would effect how fast they would be stopped...
The engine of the Dassault Rafale is less powerful than the one of the Mig-35.
Furthermore, from what I could find in public available information, Each of the RD33MK of the Mig 35 have a max dry thrust of 52 kN (12,000 lbf) thrust each dry, 88.2 kN (19,800 lbf) with afterburner,
While the Al-41F1S of the Su-35 have a max (dry) thrust of 86.3 kN (19,400 lbf) thrust each, and 137.3 kN (30,900lbf) with afterburner.
That means that the su-35 engine has 66% more thrust than the engine of the Mig-35, not twice as much. I do not know about the electrical power available, but I guess that unless one of the engines has been especially developed for higher electrical output, it should be proportional to the thrust ratio difference.
As far as India, they are developing now their own AESA radar, maybe they could be interested in putting them in their Mig-35 if they select this aircraft for the new MMRCA competition.
Again, off topic but I want to clarify it. I really doubt that the price for the su-75 mentioned earlier will be for export customers which did not contribute to the development costs.
What I mean is: country A gives Russia and Sukhoi a few billions USD during development of the aircraft, they will get the special price.
Country B does not contribute to the development cost of the aircraft, they will get the full price.
Anyway, the radar developed for the Su-75 could also potentially go on the Mig-35, if the electric power needed is covered by 2 RD-33 engines.
If not they can probably do a modified version of the engine with new accessory gearbox and higher electrical output.
There is possibly anyway a new generation engine in the 50kN (circa 12000 lbf) thrust which will be eventually developed, also for a possible twin engine carrier aircraft from MiG and also for export.
I realize you guys didn't know the existence of the jet engine of RD-33MKR(see the pics above). The letter R here refers to Russia obviously. Mother Russia ordered Klimov to make a new engine to save their useless brother's ass years ago. So yes, MiG does have a brand new engine called RD-33MKR, obviously upgraded on RD-33MK. And 3 months ago Klimov told its customers that they can develop a new engine with 400kgs increased thrust from RD-33MK in Zhuhai airshow in China, I can not find the link at the moment, but I am quite sure about the number 400kgs. So you have seen that brand new, shining, and fully polished cockpit with your own eyes in the film and you knew it will have completely new avionics too, although we have no knowledge about that new radar(likely AESA). Yes Mig is incompetent and useless but they are not stupid, at least not that stupid. And with the new engine they do have a chance to develop a new Mig-35, a 4th+ G aircraft, with the mother's money and other talented brothers' help, well 15 years late...
Mir wrote:PS - If Russia is the launch customer for the Su-75 they will likely pay only 30 million for the fighter.
Even if Russia was not the launch customer Russia will pay the lower price, of course. Sukhoi is not a private firm.
It is different however for foreign customers.
However that is the same for MiG-35. there are some people here that almost were saying that Russia will pay 55 millions for one MiG-35 aand 25 millions for a Su-75.
Anyway, if they are going to upgrade the RD-33 using technology from th AL-41 (and eventually Al-51) that is only a good thing
Mir wrote:AL-41 "slightly less" and AL-51 "slightly more" than double
True for AL-51, which public available info about dry thrust is about 108 kN (i.e. about 2.08 times the thrust of the RD-33MK) , but the thrust of the AL-41 is about 1.66 times the thrust of the RD-33MK.
1.66 is not "slightly less" than 2 in my book.
Anyway I do not understand the point about this.
The Su-57 has a requirement for super cruise, the Mig-35, does not. I do not know about supercruise capabilities for the Su-75, but it would be off topic for this thread.
Furthermore publicly available information report that the Max Take off weight (MTOW) of the Su-75 is more than twice of the MTOW of the Mig-35 (26000 kg Vs 24500), so it is normal that the engine of the su-75 will need to have more than twice the thrust of the engine of the Mig-35.
Finally, costs and other characteristics of current Mig-35 are known to Russia. Those for Su-75 are a preliminary estimation. Most aerospace projects from any country tend to "explode" in cost, some of them going to be more than twice than the initial estimates.
Can we please stop mentioning the Su-75 in every second or third post in this thread?
The point is the Indian experience in 2011 with the Mig-35. Both the Zhuk AE and the RD-33MK performed below spec with the result that the Mig-35 was dropped from the MRCA competition. Since then both the Mig-35 and the Zhuk AESA (as well as the TVC's) found no customers, despite very keen interest from the start. Since then everybody moved onto other fighters including Mig's own M2.
Btw - In the MRCA competition of 2011 the Mig-35 was the cheapest option at $38.5 million. It would be interesting to see how much it will be with the new competition - nearly 15 years later.
Mir wrote:The point is the Indian experience in 2011 with the Mig-35. Both the Zhuk AE and the RD-33MK performed below spec with the result that the Mig-35 was dropped from the MRCA competition. Since then both the Mig-35 and the Zhuk AESA (as well as the TVC's) found no customers, despite very keen interest from the start. Since then everybody moved onto other fighters including Mig's own M2.
Considering that many Indian officials have lied to the media when speaking about Russian equipment, and that many of them were corrupt and accepted bribes to favour the acquisition of western equipment.... I do not thrust those feedbacks.
The acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale for 8 billion USD was a clear fraud, and last year India has finally filed charges for corruption and bribes against BAE systems and Rolls-Royce for an old contract for the acquisition of Hawk trainer aircrafts.
So the below spec performance is still to be proven.
As far as the reason of other customers buying Mig29M2 later, the reason is that they did not want to pay the price for getting MiG-35 and apparently for them the MiG-29M2 was enough. Simple as that.
Yes I do understand that everybody else but MiG is crooked and corrupt. We have also been over that point countless of times already. Still the fact remains that the Mig-35 found no new customers. Simple as that. Let's hope that the new competition brings them better luck - or maybe they should learn to bribe better
Meh has nothing to do with bribes and more to do with coercion
The Indians are slaved to GE and Zorya for their navy power plants
It would not surprise me if the US threatens to cut cooperation with their engine supplies to destroyers and frigates if they don’t purchase the block 70 F16
Which is ultimately what it all boils down to
They need to make sure GE keeps making their MGTs and they need to grease them with other contracts to keep that going
RR Considering that many Indian officials have lied to the media when speaking about Russian equipment, and that many of them were corrupt and accepted bribes to favour the acquisition of western equipment.... I do not thrust those feedbacks.
Fact is that Russian MoD kept downsizing Mig-35 order from discussed 37 to 24 and only bought token amount of 6 at the end, tells a lot about their opinion about the plane and MiGs abilities. Those planes were delivered with PESA Zhuk AMD no new orders followed. It's been already 6 years since that order. Also, other MiG-29 versions are not being used in SMO, with the exception of some limited use of MiG-29KR for hunting drones in Black Sea. As for MiG-35 appearance in the documentary, cockpit looks same as it looked in 2018 and even person from MiG bureau didn't mention AESA radar.
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Big_Gazza
