MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

GarryB wrote:... in the ten years it takes to get a flying aircraft, the MiG will have been produced and put in service in significant numbers...

MiG hadn't had a new flying aircraft since before Cold War ended

Unless they add teeny tiny little motor and RC controls on one of those scale models they have been making this whole century it's unlikely they will have one any time soon

Shows how little you know - Mig29M2 flew first in 2005, first Su27PU /SU30 had first flights in 1992, Mig29M2 would be similar to advanced Su30SM2 and the Mig35 a su35 equivalent with AESA. These are brand new planes in the full sense of the word, or does that only apply for sukhoi ? Is that not the first retort when people claim that su30 is just su27?

So no MiG had introduced new aircraft to Egypt and Algeria and Russia operates a few.

Brand new airframe, RD33MK engines new, Zhuk radar new, New OLS, new HUD, new everything

Not sure where people get this dumb information from - I guess the "new" syndrome only applies to sukhoi

MiG 29 is MiG 29 no matter how much chrome and extras you slap on it

Does OAK have money to produce a ship-based version based on the Mig-29M2 with RD-33MK? Everything else makes no real sense. The Indians have the Mig-29K inclusive for their carriers. the RD-93.

The question is, is Russia going the way of China and will it eventually build two school carriers (it already has one) and two real carriers? Then the Mig-29K (new) is already needed. But only then.

Russia already deployed MiG-29K on Kuznetsov. If you remember, one was lost during Syrian campaign. I think that they have a squadron or so in service.

It doesn't need yet another jet that just fills same exact roll but....worst than what is already being produced now.

They need more front line aircraft to kill Ukrainian nazis... obviously it makes sense to use new aircraft that are cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate so the can be bought in larger numbers and kill the enemy faster.

The 1988 Mig-29M (airframe included) formed the basis of all these developments. It was fully multi-role, had 8 hardpoints and the uprated RD-33K Series 3 engine, and the same Zhuk PESA radar currently found in the Mig-35. All that back in 1988!

And the role has not changed... a modern light multirole fighter with upgraded engines and radar is all they require... they don't need some 6th gen super fighter, just a cheap light bomb and missile truck that can operate from a 300m stretch of motorway.

The current engines and radars will be nothing like the engines and radars they could possibly serial manufacture in the late 1980s...

The avionics would be completely different.

Due to economic hardship they were only able to developed the Mig-29M2, Mig-35 and the Mig-29KR decades later. All based on 1988 technology.

All based on the Wright flyer surely...

Next: You would refer back to the old F-15/16 designs being put back into production.
Answer: The F-35 is an extremely expensive lemon - they have no options, they have to go retro. Russia have vastly more and better options.

They need a light numbers aircraft and the MiG-35 is ready to go and there are no other options for the next 10 years that could be an alternative.

No not true. You posted the article. They discussed the Mig-AT and that it was set to enter production. It never materialized.

They didn't say it was already developed and ready for production and would enter serial production immediately. It clearly mentioned it would not take 10 years to develop because it was essentially going to be a single engined version of the MiG-AT with all Russian components and equipment and systems, so they would need to redesign it into a single engined aircraft, which means redesign and producing a prototype and then testing.

MiG hadn't had a new flying aircraft since before Cold War ended

Which is why the MiG-35 is the best solution... it has been tested and is proven in service and now it has been massively improved and is ready for serial production.

No risk, like a certain plane that has never flown.

Is that not the first retort when people claim that su30 is just su27

Actually the Su-30 is an Su-27UB.

MiG 29 is MiG 29 no matter how much chrome and extras you slap on it

The secret is maintenance and keeping everything working when you send it up to fight HATO... it still might be shot down but perhaps you will be less salty...

Does OAK have money to produce a ship-based version based on the Mig-29M2 with RD-33MK? Everything else makes no real sense. The Indians have the Mig-29K inclusive for their carriers. the RD-93.

MiG claim they have made the MiG-35 carrier capable, which is the most sensible way to upgrade the MiG-29KR.

The RD-93 is just an RD-33 with the gearbox shifted so it can be used on Chinese single engined fighters.

It is no different... not more powerful nor more fuel efficient...

The question is, is Russia going the way of China and will it eventually build two school carriers (it already has one) and two real carriers?

The Kuznetsov is not a bad carrier and they will upgrade it and keep it operational at least until new CVNs can be built, but it would likely remain in use for quite some time.

I would think the next thing they develop for the K and for future CVNs will be an Su-57K to replace the aging Su-33s.

The one lost on the Kuznetsov was because of operational mistakes after a failure on the arrestor wire systems. An aircraft was low in fuel and noone took the correct decision (it would have been enough to let another mig-29k takeoff, do a quick buddy refueling and then go landing both aircrafts in the russian airbase in Latakia while the arrestor gears had to be repaired)..

They also lost an Su-33 at the same time... it was an arrester gear problem, as opposed to a broken cable. Arrester gears is like a transmission in a car and is not as easy to fix as replacing a cable and trying again.

I am curious about the planned new Indian order
Apparently the following aircrafts could be considered:
Lockheed Martin F-16V Block 70/72, F/A-18E/F
F-15EX Boeing, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, MiG-35, Sukhoi Su-35 (possibly even Su-57).

The Su-75 is not considered because is not production ready yet and India needs those aircrafts very soon..

The funny thing is that Russia is in the same position and wants a medium fighter to boost numbers of their air force and they already produce Su-35s and Su-57s so guess which they are left with...

So there is still a chance that 114 new Mig-35 will be produced.

When they first posted the competition, which the Rafale eventually won despite never coming close to the 10 billion value stipulated, I suggested that for 10 billion dollars they could have bought 50 MiG-35s and probably 200 MiG-29M2s.

Then with five years experience they could have evaluated both types and decided which systems were worth the extra money in the MiG-35 and which were not and then upgraded the MiG-29M2s to the MiG-35 standard.

They would have the aircraft to retire the MiG-21 and MiG-27 and the Jaguar aircraft and the existing MiG-29s, and they could keep their Mirage 2000s and buy Rafales if they wanted to and still have a decent numbers air force.

I think we had this discussion before so just very briefly. The Mig-29M's basic design and most of it's avionics was used as is to develop the Mig-35 etc. The Mig-29M dates back to 1988.

The jet engine dates back much further and the wheel is millenia old so really it is a stone age aircraft.

They all are.

Naturally much of the electronics have changed since then, but the basic Mig-29M was the starting point.

Yeah, like my grandfathers hammer... has had 5 handles and 3 heads replaced but it is still my grandfathers hammer.

It has space age materials and has bluetooth and wifi but it is obsolete... because hammers are old.

The current radar in the Mig-35 is still the Zhuk that was made for the Mig-29M/K despite efforts to upgrade to AESA.

That is hardly MiGs fault... so you suggest cancelling an aircraft because the new radar is not ready for serial production yet?

So cancel the Su-57 because the new engine is not ready.

Cancel the Su-75 because it can't even fly yet.

Lucky Hazelnut was tested because it would need to be cancelled for being untested and based on older missile concepts...

Sukhoi went the same route with the Su-30/35 but most of the avionics was from a much later generation.

The Su-30 is an Su-27UB.

The Indians and the Chinese paid for the development of something that eventually became different.

TVC was introduced as standard and a brand new engine was developed for the Su-35 (AL-41).

Money gets spent on aircraft that are in service.

Of course the Su-27 remained a simple one trick pony for decades in service with very few real upgrades over most of that period with its very basic avionics and iron bomb and unguided rocket air to ground capacity for most of its operational life.

Since then they have designed and produced the Su-57. The first flight of the Su-75 is expected very shortly. Both with brand new goodies - including the AL-51 engine.

But the SU-57 should be cancelled with its crappy old engines the Su-35 also uses, there is talk about new engines but that is probably all made up like the AESA radar for the MiG-35.

The Su-75 has never flown, so save lots of money and cancel that too.

The MiG-35 is ready for serial production and is the obvious solution to expanding production and numbers for the Russian AF.

A new MiG-21.

The decision for production between the su-75 and mig-35 is simple. Why are they going for a flat nozzle instead of a round serrated nozzle for the su-57?

well, whoever that customer is better continue memory holing that one project over the other.

thegopnik wrote:The decision for production between the su-75 and mig-35 is simple. Why are they going for a flat nozzle instead of a round serrated nozzle for the su-57?

Reduced RCS and IR footprint. And they likely solved or decreased the weight and thrust lose issue.   Round serrated nozzle where a backup and now a export item.

A reheated MiG-29 makes zero sense at this point.

MiG hadn't had a new flying aircraft since before Cold War ended

Yeah, during the cold war there were lots of planes flying around that are still flying around now...

The Gripen and Typhoon and Rafale and F-22 and F-35 were all born in the late end of cold war period conceptually, and in fact none of them are aerodynamically superior to the MiG-29 anyway.

New Avionics and new engines and new radar and EO systems and it is superior to any equivalent in current western service... and that superiority is magnified when you talk about operational costs where the MiG really excels.

MiG 29 is MiG 29 no matter how much chrome and extras you slap on it

Yup, and all Flankers and Fullbacks are just modifications of the Su-27.

Rubbish. Here is the essence of what they said in the 2018 TASS article. No mention was ever made of a single engine development or the Mig-UTS.

Even the twin engined MiG-AT was signficantly cheaper than the Yak-130, which won because of the potential as a light fighter... which has not been realised yet either.

The elimination of French components and engines would make the MiG-AT even cheaper, but a single engine modification would likely make more sense in terms of costs.

It would not be replacing the Yak-130, it would be replacing the L39.

A reheated MiG-29 makes zero sense at this point.

If they want a numbers aircraft the MiG-35 is the only option ready for serial production.

If they don't need a numbers aircraft then cancel the Su-75 right now because they don't need it.

GarryB wrote:If they want a numbers aircraft the MiG-35 is the only option ready for serial production.

You're under assumption that former MiG plants can do serial production.  And if you're going to build said plants up again for serial production might as well do it for other planes.


MiG carrying on with MiG-35 now  Is stupid.   Same situation with Mil Mi-38.    Both products should have been in serial production decade and a half ago   Now they are just obsolete to put into serial production.

GarryB wrote:

If they don't need a numbers aircraft then cancel the Su-75 right now because they don't need it.

Yeah, lets cancel a potential export succes product.

Well there are reasons why you would want the Su-75 over the Mig-35

1.Obviously stealth, Su-57 from the RCS reduction of it getting compared to the Su-27 on the patent is 10 times stealthier or more. Without the flat nozzle the Su-75 appears to have more stealth than the Su-57.

2.PICs are getting produced since a month ago, waiting for 2 years for any kind of contract for production would be better to get the newer MMICs or PICs since radar configuration and replacement is designed to be super easy on the Su-75, Mig-35 will stick with an older Zhuk radar.

3. Shvabe has made a lot of significant progress over the years in infrared systems, so I am assuming their newer infrared detection for the Su-75 is far superior to mig-35.

I get it that mig doesn't have a double engine 5th gen design, a stealth drone design and it looks like they won't have a single engine design to be mass produced because of how superior the Su-75 is. They are better at sticking to a 6th gen design that is either 3 stream cycle or detonation engine related.

thegopnik wrote:1.Obviously stealth, Su-57 from the RCS reduction of it getting compared to the Su-27 on the patent is 10 times stealthier or more. Without the flat nozzle the Su-75 appears to have more stealth than the Su-57.

Depending what Sukhoi's solution on the intakes of Su-57 is. The RCS between Su-57 and Su-75 might not be all that diffrent.

thegopnik wrote:I get it that mig doesn't have a double engine 5th gen design, a stealth drone design and it looks like they won't have a single engine design to be mass produced because of how superior the Su-75 is. They are better at sticking to a 6th gen design that is either 3 stream cycle or detonation engine related.

Naval fighter perhaps. Or make the MiG-31 successor multipurpose replacing Tu-22M's partially. But then again i don't think Mikoyan has any talent left.

Besides plasma ignition and VCE AL-51 was also supposed to have had other advancements of the 6th gen type features. But at this point it's to be even seen if VCE block will be part of the AL-51 equipped Su-57's due to cost.

Yak did develop an attack version of the Yak-130 in the 90's but found no takers.

So the reason for choosing the Yak was totally bogus... sounds like corruption really...

They have recently revealed an AESA radar and an EO targeting pod and wingtip ESM/EW pods, but again... no known takers.

It might be a cheap fighter, but it remains expensive for flight training.

However the current trainer is quite capable of being used as a light fighter as is.

Saying so does not make it true. They have tested all sorts of different roles for the Yak-130 including as a replacement for the Su-25, for which it seems to have been rejected.

There is also a development Yak-130 bort number 134 with 8 hardpoints instead of the usual 6.

As a light fighter the 3 ton payload and 6 weapon hard points would be good enough most of the time, but its subsonic speed and relatively short range... likely made even shorter with wingtip ESM pods and a radar in the nose and a belly mounted EO pod will make it heavier and slower and rather a lot more expensive...

Exactly...one of plenty of reasons why the Su-75 makes a lot more sense.

Not at all.

Taking one engine out of the Yak-130 and only using one of those engines of course makes it cheaper.

The Su-75 uses a much more expensive engine than either of the two engines in a MiG-35... it is like comparing the F-16 with the F-5... the small cheap engines in the F-5 are much cheaper than the single engine of the F-16... in fact the F-20 had the two small cheap engines replaced with a single much bigger much much more expensive engine. The result was the F-20 was getting close to F-16 prices but without the F-16 performance.

F-5 users did not buy the F-20 upgrade.

You're under assumption that former MiG plants can do serial production.  And if you're going to build said plants up again for serial production might as well do it for other planes.

Military production takes priority during war time, and they need lighter fighters more than they need airliners to replace western shit.

MiG carrying on with MiG-35 now  Is stupid.   Same situation with Mil Mi-38.    Both products should have been in serial production decade and a half ago   Now they are just obsolete to put into serial production.

So cancel the Su-30, Su-35 and Su-34 because carrying on with them must be stupid too...

Yeah, lets cancel a potential export succes product.

Actually the MiG-35 has orders from Egypt and Algeria, which makes the MiG-35 a more successful export aircraft than the Su-75, for which there is only talk.

Well there are reasons why you would want the Su-75 over the Mig-35

And that is ignoring the elephant in the room... Su-75s are not an option and wont be for at least the next 8 to 10 years.

It hasn't even flown yet.

1.Obviously stealth, Su-57 from the RCS reduction of it getting compared to the Su-27 on the patent is 10 times stealthier or more. Without the flat nozzle the Su-75 appears to have more stealth than the Su-57.

The Su-35 and Su-30 and Su-34 are not stealthy as such, yet remain in production...

For some roles stealth might be enormously useful, but for most it just increases demands for support and maintenance.

2.PICs are getting produced since a month ago, waiting for 2 years for any kind of contract for production would be better to get the newer MMICs or PICs since radar configuration and replacement is designed to be super easy on the Su-75, Mig-35 will stick with an older Zhuk radar.

Producing airframes always takes longer than avionics, so building 500 MiG-35s that don't have AESA radar from the factory... but have it added later on during an overhaul/upgrade is the easier way to do things than delay production until everything is ready.

Do you think the Su-57 would have benefited from being delayed from serial production until 2028 when the new helmet mounted displays and new engines and any other upgrades are ready to be produced?

3. Shvabe has made a lot of significant progress over the years in infrared systems, so I am assuming their newer infrared detection for the Su-75 is far superior to mig-35.

Why do you think Russian producers of equipment would supply technology to one aircraft and deny it to all others?

Your assumptions are just that.

If the MiG-35 goes into serial production it is going to be made in numbers and to improve the Russian Air Force you would want those numbers to have the best equipment that you can produce for it.

I get it that mig doesn't have a double engine 5th gen design, a stealth drone design and it looks like they won't have a single engine design to be mass produced because of how superior the Su-75 is.

They have a twin engined light 5th gen design for use on aircraft carriers, but it seems that the Russian AF wants light fighters that are single engined aircraft so their bid for the light 5th gen fighter also has a single engine. If they decide they want a twin engined design they can always adapt the carrier based fighter for the role.

The light 5th gen fighter should be affordable and capable, but demanding it be an Su-57 but with just one engine is short sighted... the MiG-29 was never intended to be better than the Su-27 and the F-16 was not supposed to be better than the F-15... that is the core problem of the F-35... they are trying to make it better than the F-22 and of course this means it fails in its core focus... cheap light fighter.

It is not and never will be, because cheap light fighters don't have a juicy big profit margin... you don't make lots of money making cheap simple but effective weapons... which is why most western weapons are shit.

They are better at sticking to a 6th gen design that is either 3 stream cycle or detonation engine related.

The terms for generations are flashed around by idiots... but how can MiG develop and produce 6th gen fighters if they have not developed and put into serial production 5th gen fighters?

Of course if Kalashnikov wanted to make a new sniper rifle they wouldn't start by making a matchlock musket, but their experience in using the latest technologies will be put to test if they want to end up with something ground breaking and modern.

But then again i don't think Mikoyan has any talent left.

And that is your problem... but who cares... with Putin in charge being a wussy of course the west is going to win in Ukraine and within 20 years the Russians wont need to make their own fighter planes... they can just buy F-16s from western countries getting their new super 7th gen fighters designed and built in Scotland... where all the Russian weapon designers fled to when Russia collapsed into 100 little feudal states.  

GarryB wrote:

Robert.V wrote:MiG carrying on with MiG-35 now Is stupid. Same situation with Mil Mi-38. Both products should have been in serial production decade and a half ago Now they are just obsolete to put into serial production.

So cancel the Su-30, Su-35 and Su-34 because carrying on with them must be stupid too...

Dumb counter argument. Su-30, Su-34 and Su-35 are and have been in production for more then a decade. MiG-35 and MIl Mi-38 have yet to even start or just starting and what looks to be more and more low serial production in case of Mi-38.

GarryB wrote:


Actually the MiG-35 has orders from Egypt and Algeria, which makes the MiG-35 a more successful export aircraft than the Su-75, for which there is only talk.

No, they don't. Unless you live in alternative realty

GarryB wrote:
And that is your problem... but who cares... with Putin in charge being a wussy of course the west is going to win in Ukraine and within 20 years the Russians wont need to make their own fighter planes... they can just buy F-16s from western countries getting their new super 7th gen fighters designed and built in Scotland... where all the Russian weapon designers fled to when Russia collapsed into 100 little feudal states. Rolling Eyes

Yawn....

no the mig-35 as a 4th gen aircraft is not the answer to another country's 5th gen aircraft lol. Maybe the Mig-35 can go compete with the hurjet