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Mir

Hannibal Barca

ALAMO

Isos

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Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

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Post n°1

Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Isos Tue Oct 15, 2024 10:25 pm

If they want to face the US navy they need to make a super anti-sub version with catamaran hull that would widstand torpedo explosions and be able to launch a shit ton of ASW helicopters.

US subs are game changer against Chinese navy. They lack way too behind to be a real threat right now.

Soviet Moskva class helicopter carrier should be an exemple of what they need accompanied by a bunch of ASW corvettes and ASW patrol aircraft.

Their landing forces would be decimated by US subs right now.

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Post n°2

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

ALAMO Tue Oct 15, 2024 10:57 pm

Isos wrote:They lack way too behind to be a real threat right now.

Yes.
A country that leads the electronics supply on the world scale, uses most of human-built quantum computers, and wins all the world-held math contests (no matter if the Chinese rise red or stars and stips flag) - sucks in computing.
The last time you jumped out of the box was when you commented ukro territorial resources ... Laughing

Laughing

Take your small head out of a fukin honey jar, Whinny the Pooh, as soon as your ears allow that ...

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Post n°3

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Hannibal Barca Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:49 pm

Don't bother, Greeks are total brainswashed. The absolute sub nation, born vassals.

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Post n°4

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Isos Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:23 am

They don't lead in electronics... Taiwan is actually the leader for production and most best products are US.

Anyway my point was about subs. Their subs are way behind US ones. Their SSK are ok but they are not for blue waters. Their SSN suck, Japanese heli carrier managed to track easily one. If their ships go in the open, behind Taiwan, they will be crushed by Virginias.

It's well known subs are better than ships. They evolve in 3D while ships only in 2D, they can play with water salinity levels more easily and sneak through.

China needs to have a counter measure against them and right now they don't have.

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Post n°5

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Mir Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:39 am

Yes China is decades behind the US in submarine design Laughing

Laughing

Chinese attack submarines vs US subs Ssn-pr10

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Post n°6

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Isos Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:39 am

You just prove to be a fanboy with this picture that shows nothing.

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Post n°7

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

lancelot Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:23 pm

Isos wrote:You just prove to be a fanboy with this picture that shows nothing.

That is the PLAN's latest Type 093B SSN. Just shows how much you know about the Chinese Navy.

The Chinese currently have the largest nuclear sub shipyards in the world. Larger than the ones at Sevmash. They finished building those facilities a couple years ago. Do you think they built those shipyards just to stand idle?

You also need to look at a depth map of the area between Taiwan and continental China. Those are shallow waters, where SSNs would be sitting ducks.

Chinese attack submarines vs US subs Water-10

The Chinese have boatloads of SSKs which would be way more stealthy in that kind of environment, and they have a lot of Y-8Q anti-submarine aircraft.

Chinese attack submarines vs US subs 67996810

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Post n°8

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Arrow Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:41 pm

hat is the PLAN's latest Type 093B SSN. Just shows how much you know about the Chinese Navy. The Chinese currently have the largest nuclear sub shipyards in the world. Larger than the ones at Sevmash. They finished building those facilities a couple years ago. Do you think they built those shipyards just to stand idle? wrote:

We don't really know how advanced the Chinese submarines are. They're probably not as advanced as the Russian 955A or 885M. But Russia is the clear leader in this area.

They don't lead in electronics... Taiwan is actually the leader for production and most best products are US. wrote:

They have advanced enough electronics to have very good submarines, similar to Russia where their submarines are considered the most advanced in the world, while the Su-57 has more or comparable electronics to the latest F-35. Here electronics are no barrier.

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Post n°9

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

lancelot Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:56 pm

From the satellite photos of the Type 093B it likely has pump jet propulsion. And from a model of what is likely the Type 093B it also likely has VLS.

Chinese attack submarines vs US subs 20231010

The photos of the model predate the construction of the actual boat.

Their shipyards can easily build 2 such submarines a year once they reach peak capacity. They have enough room for building 12 submarines simultaneously.

Last edited by lancelot on Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post n°10

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Arrow Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:01 pm

The jet pump doesn't mean anything yet. Although it may be quieter in some areas. The Yasen M has a regular screw and is considered the most advanced SSN in the world. Of course, China will definitely catch up with the leaders in nuclear-powered submarines.

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Post n°11

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Isos Wed Oct 16, 2024 7:18 pm

[It's a type 093B. And then what ? That thing is no better than Victor 1s. Sea Wolf and Virginias will torn it apart.

1000m is not shallow at all. Just like I said if chinese navy goes west of Taiwan it will be crushed by the Virginias.

Who cares about their shipyards size. They still don't produce good SSNs let alone very good ones like Yasen or Sea Wolf.

Those aircrafts can secure around their cost but as soon as they go further away they are at risk of getting some air to air missiles on their face. Since their carriers can't face US subs they would be left with no support. Just look at Ukrainian sky where no one tries to fly, now imagine if one of the parties is the US navy and its 600 fighter jets...

Even Chinese are very well aware they don't have the capability to face the US navy further away from the first island chain that includes Taiwan. They bet on 2050 to surpass them which is not soon.

Of course they have missiles to target US bases and ships bit so does the US. And they don't seem to think they would win.

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Post n°12

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Mir Wed Oct 16, 2024 8:38 pm

Isos wrote:[It's a type 093B. And then what ? That thing is no better than Victor 1s.

The "and then what?" part is that the even more advanced Type-95 is already building.
About the "no better than Victor 1's" part...
Laughing

Laughing

Laughing

Laughing

Laughing

Chinese attack submarines vs US subs 1f602

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Post n°13

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

lancelot Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:37 pm

Isos wrote:[It's a type 093B. And then what ? That thing is no better than Victor 1s. Sea Wolf and Virginias will torn it apart.

1000m is not shallow at all. Just like I said if chinese navy goes west of Taiwan it will be crushed by the Virginias.

Who cares about their shipyards size. They still don't produce good SSNs let alone very good ones like Yasen or Sea Wolf.

Look at that map again. The deepest parts of the sea between mainland China and Taiwan is like 100m deep and for the most part isn't even 50m deep.

The first US submarine with pumpjet propulsion was the Sea Wolf. This Type 093B submarine probably has noise levels on par with the Virginia.

Isos wrote:Even Chinese are very well aware they don't have the capability to face the US navy further away from the first island chain that includes Taiwan. They bet on 2050 to surpass them which is not soon.

Try checking out the range of their DF-26 anti-ship ballistic missile. The Chinese can track US surface ships with either their satellites, or with their UAVs. And they can hit them all the way to Guam.

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Post n°14

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Arrow Wed Oct 16, 2024 9:54 pm

The first US submarine with pumpjet propulsion was the Sea Wolf. This Type 093B submarine probably has noise levels on par with the Virginia. wrote:

Just because it has a pump jet doesn't mean it has reached the Virginia's level of quietness. There are many factors that affect quietness. Comparing submarines is often speculative, especially of the same generation.

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Post n°15

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

ALAMO Wed Oct 16, 2024 10:04 pm

Isos going ballistic in 3...2...1...

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Post n°16

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

GarryB Thu Oct 17, 2024 1:54 pm

Why all the bullshit guys?

Lsos mentioned that for them the US SSNs will be a challenge... is he wrong?

China has made enormous strides in electronics and production and all sorts of technology, but even they would say having advantages in some areas and not in others can be a problem.

I am sure the Russians would like to help them out if they need that, without giving away their entire hand too, and of course with their inferior steel we really don't know how the US subs will actually perform in combat situations... they might not commit them at all... there does not seem to be much interest in sending US soldiers to die to save Kiev... would they be more interested in sending them to die in Taiwan?

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Post n°17

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

ALAMO Thu Oct 17, 2024 2:06 pm

GarryB wrote:Why all the bullshit guys?
Lsos mentioned that for them the US SSNs will be a challenge... is he wrong?

Well, he is.
Depending on the scale of the conflict we are discussing, the most probable one is the Taiwan invasion.
Which I hardly believe will ever happen, as the Chinese need it in working condition.
In this scenario, all the way to Taiwan is shallow waters as the guys mentioned.
In such conditions, any big submarine is a sitting duck. Chinese conventional subs will operate there with much better results, as those are optimized for the role.
Chinese speed up in submarine technology at an unprecedented level.
Building in shocking numbers, and the improvement process is constant.
We are again dealing with facts we know versus imagination.
What we do know, is that the Chinese own world's biggest and most efficient shipbuilding cluster, which is on a scale more than 200 times bigger than US based one.
PLUS TWO HUNDRED TIMES.
What we do know, is that they are leading now in computing power, and the Chinese mathematicians are second only to Russkie at the moment.
What we do know is the fact, that they are leading in dozens of key technologies - which is an official opinion of the Congress committee.
Considering that against all of that, they are somehow backward in some technology, is a matter of religious high which is worthless to comment.

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Post n°18

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

lancelot Thu Oct 17, 2024 4:13 pm

Some of the Chinese SSKs even have AIP. The Chinese bought the technology for making the Stirling engines from the Swedes. And then made their own improved version with more power.

China is the biggest manufacturer in the world of lithium-ion batteries. So I would not be surprised if their latest SSKs also used lithium-ion batteries. They have also built hydrogen fuel cell powered railway locomotives. So they also have that technology to use in subs if they want to use it.

They probably have some of the most advanced and quietest SSKs in the world.

Chinese attack submarines vs US subs China-10

If anything the US might try to provoke a conflict with China since the longer they wait the harder it would be for the US to fight the Chinese.

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Post n°19

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Isos Thu Oct 17, 2024 6:36 pm

Mir wrote:

The "and then what?" part is that the even more advanced Type-95 is already building.
About the "no better than Victor 1's" part...

More advanced than type 093 certainly not more than a Yasen or Virginia.

It's well admitted they still don't have anything better than a Victor 1 in terms of stealthness.

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Post n°20

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Isos Thu Oct 17, 2024 6:40 pm

lancelot wrote:
Look at that map again. The deepest parts of the sea between mainland China and Taiwan is like 100m deep and for the most part isn't even 50m deep.

The first US submarine with pumpjet propulsion was the Sea Wolf. This Type 093B submarine probably has noise levels on par with the Virginia.

Try checking out the range of their DF-26 anti-ship ballistic missile. The Chinese can track US surface ships with either their satellites, or with their UAVs. And they can hit them all the way to Guam.

That's what I said, they can reach Taiwan but further than that they would need to face US sub against which they are not ready at all.

DF-26 can't hit subs. US can impose easily a embargo on Chinese ports right now if we don't take nuks in the equation.

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Post n°21

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

lancelot Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:17 pm

Isos wrote:It's well admitted they still don't have anything better than a Victor 1 in terms of stealthness.

You need to read more recent reports. The Chinese still keep the Type 091 in service. For whatever reason some people think all their submarines have a similar noise level. The Type 091 is the best they could produce with 1970s level technology. The Type 093 is a 2000s submarine. And the latest 093 variants are supposed to have much quieter propulsion and reactor. The 093B was launched last year. They are building six of them.

Isos wrote:That's what I said, they can reach Taiwan but further than that they would need to face US sub against which they are not ready at all.

DF-26 can't hit subs. US can impose easily a embargo on Chinese ports right now if we don't take nuks in the equation.

All Chinese major surface combatants from the corvettes to the cruisers have variable depth sonar, towed sonar array, and helicopter pads. All of them are connected via satellite link. And like I said they have the Y-8Q ASW aircraft with magnetic anomaly detector, SATCOM, and internal weapons bay to directly target submarines.

The only thing the Chinese still lack is enough Type 093B SSNs. But that is nothing they cannot solve given enough time.

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Post n°22

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

Mir Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:23 pm

Isos wrote:
It's well admitted they still don't have anything better than a Victor 1 in terms of stealthness.

Pure horse manure from your ass but please enlighten us with the facts Neutral

Neutral

Btw - those early Chinese nuclear subs that Lancelot mentions had a lot of French tech inside. Wink

Wink

Last edited by Mir on Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post n°23

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

lancelot Thu Oct 17, 2024 7:25 pm

The Type 093B should be competitive enough against the Virginia as it is. And it is meant to be replaced by the next generation Type 095 eventually. Which will be a whole new hull type.

The Type 093B seems to be an intermediate design where they are testing all their latest kit in terms of power plant, propulsion scheme, VLS cells, likely also sensors, and electronics. Before they make the new 095 hull with those systems in it.

The Virginia is just a low cost mass produced version of the Seawolf. So I don't know why people think it's home kind of hot shit. The only thing it has is numbers.

The US has 23 Virginia class submarines, 3 Seawolf class, and 24 Los Angeles class.

The Los Angeles class submarines will be headed for the scrap yard soon. And the Chinese will be able to build SSNs faster than the US once they ramped up their facilities. They will likely surpass the US Navy in SSN capacity around the late 2030s.

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Post n°24

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

GarryB Fri Oct 18, 2024 6:41 am

Well, he is.

So China should ignore US SSNs and just invade now I guess?

Amazing how it is so easy to defeat the US... I would have thought countries would have been doing it all this time if it was so simple and easy.

China has x number of mathematicians and sub warfare is all maths... that must be why the British and Germans were so good at it because their engineers were shit but their mathematicians were amazing...

Sub warfare is more than 1 plus 1 equals 2.

China has very smart people and lots of money and production capacity, but they don't have a lot of experience at sea and many of their projects have experts from other countries paid to advise and assist in their design and construction and to develop tactics for their use.

They have enormous potential, but it would not be any sort of walkover...

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Post n°25

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

ALAMO Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:01 am

GarryB wrote:

So China should ignore US SSNs and just invade now I guess?

If that is your opinion, then that is good for you. Don't link it with me anyhow.

lancelot wrote:
The Virginia is just a low cost mass produced version of the Seawolf.

Actually no.
It is a Los Angeles III.
Made as cheap as possible - which still means twice the price of Russkie build Porsche equivalent. And probably three times the price of a Chinese SSN.

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Post n°26

Re: Chinese attack submarines vs US subs

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