Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

It appears that the EAF has agreed to receive and unknown number of F-15s from the US instead of the Su-35. Sad news for all us Su-35 fans. If the news of the F-15s going to be delivered to the EAF at some point in the next few years as indicated by general McKenzie means that most likely the Su-35 deal has been cancelled. Kinda of a bummer because of all the excitement built up about the Su-35 coming to the EAF and joining the 50+ MiG-29s.



Seems like the EAF has been pressured by the US to accept this deal along with other items being offered including most likely the AIM-120 missile for not only the F-15s, but also for at least the F-16s block 52s, as well as a full package of new types of guided munitions. So instead of the 50 MiG-29 M/M2s in the EAF inventory being complement by a good number of Su-35s to increase the Russian contingency in the fleet and make it much stronger, the western side of the EAF in the F-16s is the one being strengthened with this deal. I think a lot of people are upset; while others don't know how to feel about this dramatic change of expectations. What do you guys think of this dramatic reversal? @Ahmedfire @Isos @Miketheterrible @Gary and any others.

Gomig-21 wrote:
 So instead of the 50 MiG-29 M/M2s in the EAF inventory being complement by a good number of Su-35s to increase the Russian contingency in the fleet and make it much stronger, the western side of the EAF in the F-16s is the one being strengthened with this deal.

The zionists favor this because they prefer Egypt remain dependent on the US which is their poodle.

 I think a lot of people are upset; while others don't know how to feel about this dramatic change of expectations.  What do you guys think of this dramatic reversal? @Ahmedfire @Isos @Miketheterrible @Gary and any others.

I'd rather see Egypt transition to Russian weapons (or maybe Rafales). But from the point of view of military effectiveness how does the F-15 compare to the SU-35?

You should ask how those f-15 fair against israeli f-35.

Egypt has ask for f-15 for decades and necer got them because israel had nothing better. So they gave the f-16 with less capable missiles.

Now that israel has a good amount of modern f-15 and f-35 they will give egypt f-15 (but probably with less capable missiles than what israel has).

US can control what Egypt can do with them by controlling what weapons they give and how many spare parts they have.

A egyptian Su-35 could have been equiped with any missiles available like kh-31, kh-59mk2, r-77ME, r-37M, new export models of hypersonic cruise missiles... as long as they give the money they would get the missiles.

So we can conclude su-35 was far better option than the f-15.

Isos wrote:You should ask how those f-15 fair against israeli f-35.

I don't ask that and I doubt the EAF even puts that much stock into what the Israeli fighters are or have.  The EAF has its own needs way beyond anything Israeli and so that is nowhere near the standard to go by.  Egypt has a large territory included two separate seas with several valuable naval assets to protect.  So the consideration hardly includes anything Israeli TBH with you.  It has been in need of a heavy and long range fighter that is multirole as well as maneuverable to contend with interceptions as well as deep interdiction and be able to super cruise.  Those are the factors taken into consideration and hardly the Israeli F-35.  That is more the air defense's role.

Isos wrote:A egyptian Su-35 could have been equiped with any missiles available like kh-31, kh-59mk2, r-77ME, r-37M, new export models of hypersonic cruise missiles... as long as they give the money they would get the missiles.

So we can conclude su-35 was far better option than the f-15.

I think most would agree with your assessment.  

GarryB wrote:What model F-15 are we talking about... brand new build ones, or upgraded ones from existing stocks.

The Su-35 is physically designed to outfight the F-15 and aerodynamically is expected to be able to do so, but radar and avionics are a different matter... you certainly get what you pay for but American you always pay more and don't always get what you think you are getting.

Su-35 is designed to hunt stealth fighters as well as 4th gen fighters... F-15 not so much.

It is Egypts decision and they have made it, but I suspect it was more about economic pressure than military needs and wants.

This is about the US wanting control and Egypt giving them control... the irony is that the west massively underestimate the MiG-29M and I think it is a much better plane than most westen politicians seem to realise.

We don't have much details about the deal ATM except that General McKenzie told CENTCOM that "good news, we will be providing Egypt with F-15s" which probably means new ones along the lines of the Qatari F-15s, possibly the S or EX model.  There was also mention of finally allowing the AIM-120 and other precision guided munitions as well as an upgrade to the fleet of F-16, or a limited number of aircraft like around 100 or so.

But I do agree with you and Isos that the Su-35 (despite the Eagle being slightly better than the Flanker) would be a better choice because of its close lethality to the F-15 as well as the freedom of weapons choices and access to purchasing them.

But, there is a major buzz about the EAF telling MiG corporation that if they provide the EAF with the K-77 missile and I think the R-37M as well, that they would purchase a very large number of MiG-35s!  But, it must be complete with the Zhuk-AE AESA radar and fully tested and with no issues.  The EAF is very happy with the MiG-29M/M2 even with the Zhuk-ME doppler radar that they want to add to that fleet with a possible eventual 100 or so MiG-35s.  But they must be fully equipped with the AESA as advertised.  Hopefully the missile and the radar will be worked out and that deal go through.  They'll just have to deal with the US but it sounds like they're prepared to do so.

starman wrote:
I'd rather see Egypt transition to Russian weapons (or maybe Rafales). But from the point of view of military effectiveness how does the F-15 compare to the SU-35?

It's overall slightly better than the Su-35, but the difference is not that great that if the two met in a combat scenario, then it would really depend of the pilot's skill level.  The IRBIS-E radar is very powerful and can detect and track up to 200 kms, but the current F-15's are equipped with the AN/APG-63(V)3 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar which is somewhat better than the IRBIS-E.  Each have their advantages with the weapons they can deploy.  However, any AESA radar is always better because of its ability to skip frequencies at supersonic speeds so as not to make it practically impossible to jam.

BTW, is this the great starman I remember from the infamous Iran Defense Forum many years ago?

Egypt was regime changed but their military took back control. There are very complex geopolitics going into this including Israel, Ethiopia, etc... it sucks as Russia was essentially dumped for gain and on top of it to those who had within vivid memory had deeply screwed with their internal politics. Still though Egypt is a sovereign nation that I am pretty sure is a puppet to nobody so I got to respect their choices as they should know better than anyone else what is going on. I am wary of the choice, though, and bummed out as I love Russian kit.

Gomig-21 wrote:

starman wrote:
I'd rather see Egypt transition to Russian weapons (or maybe Rafales). But from the point of view of military effectiveness how does the F-15 compare to the SU-35?

It's overall slightly better than the Su-35, but the difference is not that great that if the two met in a combat scenario, then it would really depend of the pilot's skill level.  The IRBIS-E radar is very powerful and can detect and track up to 200 kms, but the current F-15's are equipped with the AN/APG-63(V)3 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar which is somewhat better than the IRBIS-E.  Each have their advantages with the weapons they can deploy.  However, any AESA radar is always better because of its ability to skip frequencies at supersonic speeds so as not to make it practically impossible to jam.

BTW, is this the great starman I remember from the infamous Iran Defense Forum many years ago?

Thats factually incorrect.  The Irbis-E has 400km range to a fighter sized (around 3m^2) target.  Only other radar close to it is the F-22 radar (APG-77) not the APG-63v3

A video of its detection range was already tested multitude of times and a target of 1m^2 RCS was detected close to 300km range.

Irbis E has 20KW of total power going to it, thus it can output that much.  APG-63 does not for most part of what we know.  The Radar itself may have the ability to scan longer distance if enough power is provided to it but at this point in time, Irbis-E is still the most powerful in terms of total output.  AESA doesn't change that by any measure as electricity doesn't come out of nowhere to provide to the electronic systems.  In this regard, this goes for the same with Russia's AESA radar N036 which gets same exact power as the Irbis E which results in the same detection/scanning range as Irbis-E Itself even if it obtain GaN modules.

As for Egypt getting strong armed, I guess it was only a matter of time.  I didn't doubt for a Moment that Egypt would have zero spine but honestly, I am not surprised.  A lot of Egypts military is US equipped and if US decided to put too much pressure on Egypt, the cost alone to replace most of its military is just abysmally large and in that regard, cost would be way more than the change from Su-35 vs the F-15.  F-15's for most part are good jets anyway and a decent match against the Su-35.  But its all the string attached.  If we were talking about a time before Egypt purchased a huge portion of its military gear from the US, then I can see them saying no.  But now?

Egypt in the future may change their minds when majority of its other gear is so obsolete they are forced to buy elsewhere. And in that regard, may go with a Chinese/Russian mix.  That all depends if they can shake off the US influence in the country.  Iraq for instance isn't much in favor of buying US gear anything.  Their experience is rather telling too on how well American gear actually works.

I would prefer to wait for the confirmation of this deal specially there is no official comment from Egypt but i expect SU-35 will fly with the Egyptian flag .

Gomig-21 wrote:
BTW, is this the great starman I remember from the infamous Iran Defense Forum many years ago?

Exactly. Those were the good old days.

GarryB wrote:
Plus you really don't know what the US will sell to you yet.

If it is brand new F-15s they might have to wait in line...

Yes, the USAF has just proposed to Congress that they want 20+ more F-15EX so the back orders are growing fast. Maybe it is refurbed F-15E?

Also the actual funding may be an interesting part of this. Will Egypt themselves be footing the whole bill?

miketheterrible wrote:
Thats factually incorrect.  The Irbis-E has 400km range to a fighter sized (around 3m^2) target.  Only other radar close to it is the F-22 radar (APG-77) not the APG-63v3

A video of its detection range was already tested multitude of times and a target of 1m^2 RCS was detected close to 300km range.

I never said the IRBIS-E was comparable to the APG-63v3, my friend, I was merely stating what is in each aircraft to compare.

Also, the claimed distance for the IRBIS-E for detection might be 400km, but I was specifically mentioning detecting and tracking however many targets, not just the scanning & detection aspect.  Just so we're clear on the "factual" information.

Thanks for all the additional detailed information.

GarryB wrote:
Changing frequencies has no speed as such and certainly not related to the speed of sound which is a speed over distance... changing frequencies does not involve distance and is not comparable.

By using the term "supersonic" wasn't meant to be taken literally.  It was in reference to the computer's ability to 'rapidly' & constantly change frequencies.

AESA radars can spread their signal emissions across a wider range of frequencies, which makes them more difficult to detect over background noise, allowing ships and aircraft to radiate powerful radar signals while still remaining stealthy, as well as being more resistant to jamming.  Wikipedia

GarryB wrote:
PESA radars can change transmission frequencies too... that is not a feature of AESA radars only.

I don't think that's correct, Gary.  From the same Wiki link:

The AESA is a more advanced, sophisticated, second-generation of the original PESA phased array technology. PESAs can only emit a single beam of radio waves at a single frequency at a time.


So essentially it is faster in processing information than PESA radars, making it less susceptible to jamming.

GarryB wrote:
PESA is an electronically scanned radar so it can scan its entire field of view in miliseconds if that is what you are talking about.

Actually the processing aspect.

GarryB wrote:
Irbis is cheaper and more powerful.

Plus you really don't know what the US will sell to you yet.

If it is brand new F-15s they might have to wait in line...

That's true.  I never claimed any specific model or anything like that.  I merely answered @starman's question based on available information as to which model will be more likely delivered to the EAF and really the only main difference.  

There are benefits to both aircraft.  Certainly the F-15 would fit in very well with the EAF's current setup of western aircraft and all the logistics and compatibility aspects given the huge fleet of F-16s.  So a western fighter would fit right in easily without much hassle.  If the EAF was able to smoothly induct the Rafale (even the MiG-29M/M2), it essentially could do that with any other aircraft.

The Su-35 would be instantaneous since most, if not all of them are already built and even tested from what we've seen.  I think if you ask any Egyptian gal or fella, the majority would say the Su-35 is the preferable choice.  The discontent of the US' constant protection of Israel at the expense of Arab countries and obviously Egypt specifically having less access to advanced weapons has left a bad taste in their mouths.  So if anything, they would side against anything US, even if there is a clear advantage lol.  
Simply an absolute beauty, this thing is!















Obviously if the choice ends up being the F-15 (which I think it will be very likely, given the fact that the EAF was definitely strong-armed into choosing the American jet, but I also think they negotiated for the AIM-120 since the EAF couldn't possibly accept another American fighter without BVR capabilities.  The country would flip upside down if that happened.  There are also other items mentioned on the QT regarding them being included in the potential overall package, such as JDAM kits and other AWEC systems etc.

As far as waiting for them, I think that goes without saying!  Just as a reference, the Qatari F-15s took 3-4 years from the signing of the contract to the delivery of the first fighter.      

I would choose the Su-35S for the EAF at this point, simply because the difference between the two aircraft is minimal.  The Su can complement the 46 MiG-29M/M2s very nicely.  Same weapon's payload capability as the F-15 and especially the freedom of access without restrictions is a huge plus, provided Russia does supply the k77, r37m and the rest of the standard air to air missiles and KhXX package of weapons.

But that doesn't preclude them prioritizing export orders either.  Either way, this is all the information we have on the matter, so you fellas can take it for whatever it's worth to you.

https://twitter.com/TheEgyAnalysis/status/1503756921383309330

Irbis-E is a Hybrid radar technically.  It isn't PESA nor AESA but something inbetween.  This is what NIIP has mentioned a few times in the past.  It can indeed frequency hop much like an AESA.  T/R modules cannot simply switch individually on the fly and the central computer be able to process that data individually into real time.  And if it would do that, the power output would be so pathetically low that the resolution would be useless at nearly any range to where the OLS would do a far better job of computing the data and getting proper ID first.

Irbis E has a a Dual T/R from my understanding and while it isn't as "sophisticated", it actually allows it to concentrate power with a very low failure rate compared to AESA GaAS or GaN T/R modules which have to work in tandem and have a average failure rate of roughly 10% (possibly greater).  The main advantage of the AESA radar is technically LPI mode but in that regard, the range is also heavily reduced since power output is greatly reduced and thus the OLS is just as good if not better at long range detection.

What makes Su-35 even more interesting is the use of AESA L-Band T/R modules on its wingtips, something that is still speculated and not exactly known to what its use is.  Some say its the IFF but that is overkill for an IFF so most speculate it is their own LPI without the need to have it wasted on the full radar itself since its L-Band and thus be able to spot much more lower RCS objects than what the X-Band radar would and same ranges.  So power output is rather low compared to what is on the Radar itself but enough to provide some idea like LPI does.  But once again, I believe that too is wasted compared to what the OLS-35 can do.

A few small changes to the electronics and the jets will serve the russian VKS.

miketheterrible wrote:Irbis-E is a Hybrid radar technically.  It isn't PESA nor AESA but something inbetween.  This is what NIIP has mentioned a few times in the past.  It can indeed frequency hop much like an AESA.  T/R modules cannot simply switch individually on the fly and the central computer be able to process that data individually into real time.  And if it would do that, the power output would be so pathetically low that the resolution would be useless at nearly any range to where the OLS would do a far better job of computing the data and getting proper ID first.

Irbis E has a a Dual T/R from my understanding and while it isn't as "sophisticated", it actually allows it to concentrate power with a very low failure rate compared to AESA GaAS or GaN T/R modules which have to work in tandem and have a average failure rate of roughly 10% (possibly greater).  The main advantage of the AESA radar is technically LPI mode but in that regard, the range is also heavily reduced since power output is greatly reduced and thus the OLS is just as good if not better at long range detection.

What makes Su-35 even more interesting is the use of AESA L-Band T/R modules on its wingtips, something that is still speculated and not exactly known to what its use is.  Some say its the IFF but that is overkill for an IFF so most speculate it is their own LPI without the need to have it wasted on the full radar itself since its L-Band and thus be able to spot much more lower RCS objects than what the X-Band radar would and same ranges.  So power output is rather low compared to what is on the Radar itself but enough to provide some idea like LPI does.  But once again, I believe that too is wasted compared to what the OLS-35 can do.

Great post.  Thanks for taking the time to write all that valuable information.  

When I first read about the wing-mounted AESA radars on the Su-35S (they're actually on the leading edge flaps), I thought it was brilliant.  I think it's the only fighter jet with that feature.  Gives the pilot great flexibility in using the radars without much detection from the enemy.  

The ones on the Su-57 are listed as IFF.  Perhaps they serve both functions?

I like how they have the leading edge and almost half of the horizontal stabilizers in that bare titanium (I think that's what it is) similar to the surrounding panel of the gun port to protect them from the excessive fire and heat of wing-fired missiles.  Thinking of everything. 

GarryB wrote:

When I first read about the wing-mounted AESA radars on the Su-35S (they're actually on the leading edge flaps), I thought it was brilliant.  I think it's the only fighter jet with that feature.  Gives the pilot great flexibility in using the radars without much detection from the enemy.  

The ones on the Su-57 are listed as IFF.  Perhaps they serve both functions?

They are the same system on the Su-57 and Su-35 and upgraded to Su-35 level Su-30s.

The job of all three aircraft is to be able to deal with stealthy enemy aircraft.

The NEBO radar mixes different radar antenna types to form a blended system that overcomes the weaknesses of each radar type and maximises their benefits to create a vastly better system than any one radar type could achieve.

They will be doing the same with their premiere fighters for sure.

Though what they export is something else perhaps.

Export models from my understanding are not much if any difference at all to what Russia fields.  This is mostly due to the parts not being really necessarily secret and the main source of secrecy lies within the software itself and how its integrated.  Since the hardware for 98% of the components are domestic made (there is some parts imported from China like certain electronic diodes) they do not worry about back doors because the production is within Russia itself done by their specialists.  Backdoors are actually the big issue when a nation buys from a foreign entity for any equipment.  So Russia can have its own backdoors installed within the IC but even if exposed, does absolutely nothing because it isnt a threat to Russia itself.  The threat is knowing what frequencies and codes/encryptions used by the devices for everything from: communication, data processing, etc.  But even if lets say for example the Ka-52 helicopter that was captured by Ukrainians after it was abandoned from being shot down, still isn't a problem. If the enemy figures out the encryption; by the time that happens, the Russians would have already done their own updates to the software and thus change whatever encryption was initially used.  The reason for this is because it is a much cheaper alternative to than replacing the entire electronics suite like what was done back in the 1980's when that Soviet pilot defected to Japan with a MiG-31. This is so that if that were to happen, lets say, it wouldn't make a difference and the cost of fixing the issue is a lot cheaper.

Hardware isn't what is important, the software is.

As for what you say is mostly correct. Only thing I am aware of for Nebo radar is that it has multitude of variants of said Radar in different configurations for different roles. It is just that the Nebo SVU is the AESA model. But each do indeed work in tandem in order to build a full picture platform, something that a single device cannot do quite well. Which brings up the point mentioned earlier with the Irbis-E and the introduction of the AESA wingtip modules for L-Band frequency: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html

ausairpower wrote:"Tikhomirov NIIP's uncharacteristic coyness about the intended uses of the L-band AESA design has not precluded other program participants from commenting. NPP Pulsar, who developed the RF transistor technology used in the radar's TR modules, and the quad TR module design, described the design as intended for “IFF, international SSR and search radar functions”. For a dedicated IFF/SSR role, the Tikhomirov NIIP L-band AESA would simply represent gross “overkill” in performance and angular coverage, which is not characteristic of Russian design philosophy, nearly always focussed on the full exploitation of the technological potential of each design component."

As mentioned by Carlo Kopp, it is complete overkill to act as anything beyond IFF use. But even NIIP mentioned that it is "IFF, international SSR and search radar functions" is a key word here.

lancelot wrote:You typically have variable frequency digital radio with encryption. You can change the cryptographic keys easily.

Rumors are that the EAF is not interested in the F-15 at all.

I hope it's true, although there are indications that the F-15 deal is pretty much settled. Let's hope not! The more time this goes on, the more I think the Su-35S is a better option for the EAF, especially when we hear the Israelis were vocally encouraging the F-15 to Egypt. That right there is a dead giveaway.

GarryB wrote:The camo of the MiG-29s is for operations over land I suspect...

[url=https://servimg.com/view/17136145/2746]

Yes, sure.  The only thing is that out of all the exercises & elephant walks & inspection photos & flight photos including buddy/buddy refueling ones (even EAF MiG-29s buddy/buddy refueling Rafales) and many other photos since that aircraft is probably the most photographed in the EAF maybe a close 2nd to the F-16s, yet the only time we've seen one of them sporting the desert camo was when they were in Russia being tested, pre-delivery as in the pic attached below.



This is one of the 4 M2s with the twin seats and in that video, it appears one of the MiGs is an M2 while the other is a single seat M version, which is also another interesting element.  Friggin Egyptians loool.  We just have bizarre ways of trying to confuse potential enemies and wind up confusing our own self in the process LOL!