Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

Where is the topic you are talking about so that I can reply?
As long as the Islamic religion is a game among you, I know the history of all peoples

Isos wrote:
They were soviet allies and got the best that soviet could offer for a very low price.

Na the Soviets were slow to provide their most advanced stuff and even then it was often downgraded.

But after they losses against Israel which was mostly because of their lack of training

In fact Egyptian pilots in particular were rigorously trained. The main problem was the inferiority of the Soviet jets they had both in air to air engagements and in attack. You should see the diagrams in the ARAB MIGs volumes.

They thought Israeli were better because they had US equipment which wasn't true

In fact the superiority of US air to air missiles, compared to soviet made ones in arab service in '73, coupled with the greater endurance, cockpit visibility etc of US warplanes gave Israel a big edge.

US and Israeli were very happy because since then they totally control egypt's strength and make sure that egyptians can't threaten Israel anymore but be at israeli mercy at anytime.

Exaggeration but with a good element of truth….

Then Sissi came to power. He has no trust in the US and started ordering from Russia and europeans. Big amount of money was spent on that but they are still dependant on the US specially for ground and naval forces. Air defences are from russians for a big part. Air force is a mix of US, Ru, EU planes but a big part depend on the US.

Indeed, Egypt shouldn't rely on the US.

According to Tom Cooper's research in the ARAB MIGs vol. 6, those figures were greatly exaggerated. The Israelis committed 27 Phantoms in three groups.

Tom is very biased, wouldn't trust his numbers at all...

Where is the topic you are talking about so that I can reply?
As long as the Islamic religion is a game among you, I know the history of all peoples

No one has any right to demand another country change its rules or beliefs the way the west does.

Russia and China are not out to impose their system of religion or government on any other country.

Discussion moved here:

Moved again to here...

GarryB wrote:

According to Tom Cooper's research in the ARAB MIGs vol. 6, those figures were greatly exaggerated. The Israelis committed 27 Phantoms in three groups.

Tom is very biased, wouldn't trust his numbers at all...

Where is the topic you are talking about so that I can reply?
As long as the Islamic religion is a game among you, I know the history of all peoples

No one has any right to demand another country change its rules or beliefs the way the west does.

Russia and China are not out to impose their system of religion or government on any other country.

Dicussion moved here:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t8813-effect-of-the-expansion-of-brics-on-egypt-and-brics

I do not care about any belief. Every person is free in his belief. The most important thing is not to attach the accusations of religious extremism to Islam or that the rulers are extremists.
This is hypocrisy and fraud
Everyone is free in their beliefs and lives

is over

starman wrote:

TMA1 wrote:Excellent stuff. Man everyone fixates on the mig-21bis and rightfully so, but the mig-21f-13 was truly when the mig-21 came into it's own. The bis was heavier and loaded with more fuel and gear, but the mig-21f-13 was a hot rod of a fighter, kinda like the f-104.

It may have been the EAF's best dogfighter, as it had a better, 30mm gun whereas other variants had a 23mm gun or none. But it had issues...

Yeah the mig-21 has an amazing track record and is probably the greatest fighter of the early-mid cold war.

All or most variants had poor cockpit visibility, limited endurance and ineffective weapons like the atoll. And it showed...

Again thanks for the stories. Now I'm going to check out the war you were talking about between Israel and Egypt. Sounds fascinating.

See the ARAB MIGs volumes and also my blog posts.

Thanks for the reply you sound like you know your stuff. The mig 21 certainly had its issues and was asked to do roles that it probably wasn't intended for but it did them respectably. One of the greatest fighters of the cold war. The f-4 is certainly one of them as well being one of the first true multirole fighters ever. Still the mig-21 is a dangerous beast and f-4 pilots from around the world would not ever fight them with any form of ease. Thanks for the suggestion about the book. I bet you post at secretprojectsuk. Right now with the war and politics going on it is pretty hard to post there without wanting to pull my hair out.

TMA1 wrote:Excellent stuff. Man everyone fixates on the mig-21bis and rightfully so, but the mig-21f-13 was truly when the mig-21 came into it's own. The bis was heavier and loaded with more fuel and gear, but the mig-21f-13 was a hot rod of a fighter, kinda like the f-104.

Yeah the mig-21 has an amazing track record and is probably the greatest fighter of the early-mid cold war. Again thanks for the stories. Now I'm going to check out the war you were talking about between Israel and Egypt. Sounds fascinating.

I'll give you a quick breakdown of the October War of 1973 (aka The Yom Kippur War) in a future post and also post a couple of videos that I think are the best ones out there that don't have any bias one way or the other and tell it like it is, since the outcome of that war is probably the most argued one in history!  But there is no doubt as to who came out the ultimate victor from it, and that is Egypt.  For now, I'll break down the MiG-21s in the EAF's history and in another post, I'll address most of the scores they hold against the enemy.

So the EAF throughout its history basically used the MiG-21 F-13, FL, MF, PF, PFS RM and of course, the two-seat trainer in the UM.

The first ever batch of MiG-21 F-13 were back in the early/mid 60's and were the standard, metallic aluminum finish, not realizing how detrimental that was in the bright, hot and super sunny climate of Egypt and the desert.





Once they realized how terrible the natural metallic finish on those F-13s was because it would reflect the bright sun off the shiny aluminum from tens of kilometers away and give them up to the enemy so easily, they started to experiment with many different camo schemes.  And since many of the original air to air engagements against the enemy were over the Nile Delta and defending Cairo and points north and east, a somewhat jungle camo was deemed best and this was one of the first patterns on the EAF F-13 of the late 60's.  Black Ravens Squadron.



MiG-21 PF started the ever so familiar Nile zebra pattern.



The VERY RARE EAF MiG-21 PFS in this particular Nile Camo scheme.  You don't see many pics of this particular beauty.





You can tell the difference from the F-13 to the PF & PFS by the dorsal antenna which was moved from right behind the canopy in the F-13 to the center of the spine on the PF & PFS as well as the size of the nose cone.

Then they took the PFM in the classic Spinach & Sand Zebra Camo.  Probably the most familiar camo scheme of the EAF MiG-21s which participated in several Bright Star exercises.



You can tell the PFM from the PFS with the difference in the canopy.  The former opened forward while the latter opened sideways.  Some other subtle and mechanical differences as well, but the canopy is the most obvious.

Then eventually with the introduction of the MF series, they came up with this Nile Camo scheme which was one of the most beautiful camo patterns ever put on a MiG-21MF, the Nile Delta scheme.





This was a VERY rare MiG-21 model in the RM (or some called it the RF) for Reconnaissance missions.  Notice the unique wingtip pods as well as the camera housing under the nose fuselage.  They didn't have too many of them from what I remember but this one, along with the MF and UM in subsequent pictures were upgraded and fitted with new avionics and other goodies in the Ukraine.  Very cool model in this recon MiG-21.



Egyptian MiG-21 UM in probably the most outlandish camo pattern scheme they ever did, arguably the worst!



MF in that same disastrous camo colors.



One of the most famous Egyptian MiG-21 MF flown by the great Phantom killer Al Mansouri.

Those are some of the most beautiful camo schemes I have seen outside of the awesome ww2 camo schemes I have seen. Love the look of the PFS. Never heard of it till now. It looks a tad like a bis model but with notable differences. Do you know how the PFS fares against the BIS model? I know P stands for interceptor and I do know interceptor models in Russia had the best avionics.

Love the mig-21

Gomig-21 wrote:
One of the most famous Egyptian MiG-21 MF flown by the great Phantom killer Al Mansouri.

Better-known EAF pilots included Qadri Hamid and al-Iraqi but haven't heard of Al Mansouri. Of course Mansoura was a key base in the delta.

GarryB wrote:
Tom is very biased, wouldn't trust his numbers at all…

Did you read the ARAB MIGs series? Tom seems objective, as he includes accounts from both sides and dismisses claims lacking corroboration. If anything he's biased in favor of the arabs. In conclusion, he estimated arab fighters killed 25-30 israeli jets in '73. But in a more recent facebook post his figures are more in line with Pollack's--only about a dozen confirmed israeli losses in air to air combat ('73).

starman wrote:Better-known EAF pilots included Qadri Hamid and al-Iraqi but haven't heard of Al Mansouri. Of course Mansoura was a key base in the delta.

Stop it, you've certainly heard of him lol! You just don't believe the February 15th, 1973 incident happened for some reason, despite the cockpit voice recording and the gun camera picture which didn't reveal the incident because he fired both atolls the second the two EAF MiG-21s merged with the 6 Israeli phantoms, immediately destroying the lead phantom with the 2nd missile and throwing the others into disarray and paranoia for 13 minutes until they fled.  The rest of the engagement then only yielded one good pic of the F-4 Phantoms in the gun camera of Mansoury's MiG.

One can only imagine how stressful an engagement like that would be and having the wherewithal to engage the gun camera and record a super dogfight with the enemy outnumbering you with their fighters, missiles and guns and you only have your guns and a rocket that burns fuel faster than an American muscle car!  

Ahmad Kamal Al Mansoury recounts his story when he and his wingman, Hassan Lotfy had to find a road to land on because they used up all their fuel from when they took off from Bani Suef air base, reached the Gulf of Suez and then engaged the prodding enemy who thought they could violate Egyptian air space whenever they wanted and were probably conducting a recon mission as by February of 1973, 8 months before the war there was already signs of the Egyptian army putting something together.

Mansoury and Lotfi took off from Bani Suef, intercepted the 6 enemy Phantoms, shot the lead aircraft down with the 2nd atoll fired (immediately at the merge) since the first one was a dud, then they dog-fought the others for another 13 minutes, most likely putting their MiG-21s in afterburner for most of that duration and the MiG-21 at the time had only 20 minutes of flight time in full afterburner, if that.  

So when they returned, they were on fumes and were forced to land on a road where Lotfy crashed and was killed, while Al Mansoury barely brought his MiG-21 to a stop where some of the locals thought he was an Israeli (because he's a Coptic Egyptian with blue eyes! So they thought he was a Jew) and started to beat the crap out of him.  It wasn't until some of the soldiers posted nearby arrived to see what was going on that they recognized the aircraft and who he was and saved him from a major beating.  This story is really incredible, but of course it's all a complete lie because we are untrustworthy people and lie all the time and only someone like Tom Cooper would have the absolute truth of everything!

Ahmad Kamal Al Mansoury with his MiG-21 MF.



The blue-eyed Egyptian Coptic Christian who fought heroically for his country and that battle was featured in Al Ahram newspaper.  But then again, it's still a lie, of course.





 

Did you read the ARAB MIGs series? Tom seems objective, as he includes accounts from both sides and dismisses claims lacking corroboration. If anything he's biased in favor of the arabs. In conclusion, he estimated arab fighters killed 25-30 israeli jets in '73. But in a more recent facebook post his figures are more in line with Pollack's--only about a dozen confirmed israeli losses in air to air combat ('73).

Have chatted to Tom quite a bit on the Keymags forums, and he has clear biases towards Iran because he likes the F-14 and against Russia because he is American.

The Soviets and Russians are all stupid and can only copy type mentality... anything negative about them was true and anything positive was propaganda...

He didn't appear objective at all.... maybe that was my bias?

Gomig-21 wrote:
Stop it, you've certainly heard of him lol! You just don't believe the February 15th, 1973 incident happened for some reason,

OK I was only thinking about October.

 

This story is really incredible, but of course it's all a complete lie because we are untrustworthy people and lie all the time and only someone like Tom Cooper would have the absolute truth of everything!

Anyone who's read the ARAB MIGs books knows Tom opposes the Israeli claim that "arabs always lie." He insisted on checking Egyptian or arab sources to get a more complete and accurate view of events.
I just don't see the claim of 17 Israeli jets shot down on the 14th as credible. Where is the corroboration, the wreckage in the delta? And if the EAF could kill 17 jets in a day what did Egypt need an elaborate SAM network for?

Isos wrote:

Anyways got a question about egyptian airforce. What is their legacy in fighters? Did they use more from the soviet bloc or from the western world?

They were soviet allies and got the best that soviet could offer for a very low price.

But after they losses against Israel which was mostly because of their lack of training (arab politicians have no trust in their military so even if they are big armies they generally have bad records) they switch at 100% for US stuff at Camp David negociations.

They thought Israeli were better because they had US equipment which wasn't true and bought US equipement. US and Israeli were very happy because since then they totally control egypt's strength and make sure that egyptians can't threaten Israel anymore but be at israeli mercy at anytime.

Egyptian f-16 have no chance to face israeli f-16. Tge politics were then total US bitches.

Then Sissi came to power. He has no trust in the US and started ordering from Russia and europeans. Big amount of money was spent on that but they are still dependant on the US specially for ground and naval forces. Air defences are from russians for a big part. Air force is a mix of US, Ru, EU planes but a big part depend on the US.

1-EGYPTIAN MIG-21S DID NOT EVEN HAVE FLARES IN 1973 2-Two useless air to air missiles if you even had any in comparison to the F-4s Sparrows and Sidewinders 3- Each Mig had 60 bullets on a gun that fires 2000 rounds per minute which means 33 bullets fired per second in Comparison to the F-4s 300+ Bullets 4- Egyptian Mig-21 had about quarter the combat range of an F-4 phantom On top of that for example in the air battle of Mansoura you had 120 Phantoms facing 60 Mig-21s They had Quality and Numbers and were still defeated

starman wrote:

Gomig-21 wrote:
Stop it, you've certainly heard of him lol! You just don't believe the February 15th, 1973 incident happened for some reason,

OK I was only thinking about October.

 

This story is really incredible, but of course it's all a complete lie because we are untrustworthy people and lie all the time and only someone like Tom Cooper would have the absolute truth of everything!

Anyone who's read the ARAB MIGs books knows Tom opposes the Israeli claim that "arabs always lie." He insisted on checking Egyptian or arab sources to get a more complete and accurate view of events.
I just don't see the claim of 17 Israeli jets shot down on the 14th as credible. Where is the corroboration, the wreckage in the delta? And if the EAF could kill 17 jets in a day what did Egypt need an elaborate  SAM network for?

Here's Henry Kissinger himself in this video saying Israel Lost 40 jets and 400 tanks in the first 2 Days of the war at Minute 13:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTLEdJZdJME&t=1s

Frankly the more I learn about the israeli airforce and their politicians the more I doubt their miraculous qualities. Same with how poorly they treat legitimate sources that arent their own.

They had an elaborate and very effective anti air network because they were following the soviet model of warfare in that aspect.

starman wrote:Anyone who's read the ARAB MIGs books knows Tom opposes the Israeli claim that "arabs always lie." He insisted on checking Egyptian or arab sources to get a more complete and accurate view of events.

In times of desperate, instant horrific life and death acts of war, corroboration is almost impossible.  The whole idea that every kill must either be witnessed by two other pilots or wreckage photographed is ludicrous.  Let's not all assume to live in a perfect world where such things will always happen.

The fact that fighter pilots are almost always type-A personalities and that being sworn into a military role where your training costs the same as the value of 20 houses and your handed the responsibility of equipment worth (at the time, each MiG-21 was bought for $250,000 which was amazing when you think about it and that number is mentioned in Shazly's book) and in today's numbers, it's millions of $ and that you take an oath of being faithful to your assignment and hold the best values of any discipline and are honorable which should be well enough to trust their statements to be the truth.  The fact that there is some donkey out there questioning the truthfulness of such honorable heroes and claiming it was a ploy by Mubarak to gain some idiotic heroism is a disgrace beyond belief.  Tom Cooper can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, no offense.  

starman wrote:I just don't see the claim of 17 Israeli jets shot down on the 14th as credible. Where is the corroboration, the wreckage in the delta?

Again with the corroboration.  And you want proof of wreckage?  Ok, tell me then, how many Jew jets were shot down by SAMs over the canal protecting the 2nd and 3rd army?  I know we're both aware the Egyptian ADS knocked out a major amount of Israeli jets rushing in to punish the natives who dared to take back their land and kill as many as they can and teach them a wicked lesson while retaking the barlev line, right?  Let's take Wikipedia's number just so that there isn't any doubt about it since that site is pretty much Jew controlled.  Some of those stats are actually a friggin joke lmaoooo!  But we'll go with them for the sake of argument.

Wiki says anywhere between 102–387 Israeli aircraft were lost.  Interesting how there's such a huge disparity between the two numbers, ey?  So let's take half of that just to be safe which is 242.  Let's even knock that down to 200 just so no one starts bitching LIES LIES LIES lol.  Sounds fair?

Ok, now, if the mega Egyptian Air Defense shot down 200 enemy aircraft, where are all the pictures of even half that many aircraft?  There's only 1 vertical stabilizer tail with the ugly star of david on it in the Cairo military museum and maybe half a dozen pics of wreckages.  A couple of odds and ends MiG-21 gun camera footage of burning enemy Mirages and Phantoms kicking the desert sand and that's it.  There were a good amount of pilot prisoners in Egyptian hospitals.  So why isn't there the same cry for corroboration with pictures of wreckages of 200+ enemy fighters shot down by SAMs yet it's somehow necessary to give the Air Battle of Al Mansoura validity?  Interesting...

starman wrote:And if the EAF could kill 17 jets in a day what did Egypt need an elaborate  SAM network for? Laughing

So only SAMs should be used?  You realize how ridiculous that sounds?  First of all, the Israelis were using excessive amounts of electronic warfare and sent those 120-160 aircraft in 3 waves.  Each wave had a different incoming vector.  They're EW was actually indicating a lot more aircraft incoming per wave than was actually there, simply to overwhelm the defenses and moral. Sneaky friggin scum.  There weren't enough SAMs to deal with all that and the EAF had to defend the bases because that was their job.  It wasn't all relegated to surface to air missiles!!  That notion is beyond crazy.

And despite the battle called Al Mansoura (which the airbase in that town was in fact targeted), it was mostly Tanta that the Jews were eyeing because it not only contained the best EAF units, but it also was the base for the Libyan Mirages that the EAF was using and they concentrated their efforts mostly on targeting Tanta yet the battle was mostly out of Mansoura.  Look at the vector of the first wave, straight towards Tanta.  Look at the 2nd wave!  Those bastards flew straight westward along the middle of the Mediterranean and then turned south east towards Mansoura, staying far away from any Egyptian SAM range or direction.  That distant vectoring, along with the faking electronic warfare was way too much to deal with just by using SAMs which took a while to load in between each missile fired, especially the SA-2s which were mostly used.

This is not perfectly accurate, BTW, but close enough.



Also, the bastards thought they could repeat the same success they had in 1967 finding all EAF aircraft just sitting on the tarmac like sitting ducks hahahaha little did they know that the EAF had built hardened shelters which protected many of the aircraft that were still in those shelters AND, the idea was not to leave any aircraft on the ground for those bastards to pick at easily.  Another major reason why they didn't use SAMs, because they weren't going to leave aircraft on the ground for those sons of bitches to repeat what they did in 1967.  Man is it sweet that they got punched in the face like they did hahaha.  

BTW, why do you suppose that for the longest time, and even until today, that the US hasn't supplied Egypt with any AMRAAMs, specifically the AIM-120?  For the longest time, Egypt was the ONLY country that was denied that missile despite Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman, Qatar, Morroco, the Turks recieved the AIM-120B and even JORDAN!!!  Which is right next to Jerusalem!!! All have been given the AIM-120 except Egypt despite it having the 4th largest fleet of F-16s.  AND it signed the CISMOA act in 2018 (non transfer of technology to 3rd parties) which supposedly was the sticking point and turned out to be a lie since after signing it, Egypt requested the AIM-120 and AIM-9X and still was refused!  All of this because they realized the monster of the air had woken up in that battle and the EAF is greatly feared by the Jews because of that.  Only once Iraq started receiving F-16s that they were denied AMRAAMs also and who else performed VERY well in the October War?  Yep, the Iraqis in their Hunters!

Luckily now, Dassault and MBDA has supplied the EAF and its Rafales with the MICA ER & IR as well as 100 SCALPs + another 300 SCALPs with the 2nd order of 30 Rafales which also includes a batch of approximately 300 Meteor missile in that contract.  That missile will completely change the QME in the ME and launch the EAF right up there.

Also the MICA NG has been promised to Egypt as soon as it's available for export and the 52 or so MiG-29M/M2 are equipped with the R-77 and the 60 degree off-boresight R-73/74 missiles which supposedly will be upgraded with the delivery of the Su-35s.  Hopefully the EAF gives the US the middle finger on the F-15 offers which are absolutely terrible and start receiving the Su-35s. The Russians don't impose ludicrous restrictions on the use of their fighters like the US does.  

There is news that Congress has agreed not to sanction India for the S-400 which it should give Egypt (which is a much bigger ally that India ever was/is) the same courtesy.  But then again, look at how it's treated it with the AIM-120 and F-15!  

There is also news that Italy has agreed to the EAF's request to expedite the start of Eurofighter Typhoon deliveries out of the stock of aircraft that are currently being final assembled for the Italian air force.  Those are also expected to be delivered with meteor missiles which the US will certainly go to bat for the Jews to do everything in its power to stop that veritable, game-changing missile from coming to Egypt.

The heroes of the Air Battle of Al Mansoura.

awmz wrote: Each Mig had 60 bullets

The MIG-21F-13 had 60 30mm rounds. Other variants with the 23mm gun had more, but others no gun at all.

On top of that for example in the air battle of Mansoura you had 120 Phantoms facing 60 Mig-21s They had Quality and Numbers and were still defeated

Suggest you read ARAB MIGs vol.6, with much different figures--27 phantoms and no losses except one from friendly fire.

Gomig-21 wrote:
The fact that fighter pilots are almost always type-A personalities and that being sworn into a military role where your training costs the same as the value of 20 houses and your handed the responsibility of equipment worth …..it's millions of $ and that you take an oath of being faithful to your assignment and hold the best values of any discipline and are honorable which should be well enough to trust their statements to be the truth.

But only EAF pilots not Israelis?

 The fact that there is some donkey out there questioning the truthfulness ...claiming it was a ploy by Mubarak to gain some idiotic heroism is a disgrace beyond belief.

There's no claim he did it to promote himself just that Sadat or his regime hyped mansoura to bolster the position of a new member or supporter.

Ok, now, if the mega Egyptian Air Defense shot down 200 enemy aircraft, where are all the pictures of even half that many aircraft?  

A lot of those knocked down near the narrow bridgehead could've fallen beyond the reach of the Egyptians. Its wasn't like the delta.


 

So why isn't there the same cry for corroboration with pictures of wreckages of 200+ enemy fighters shot down by SAMs yet it's somehow necessary to give the Air Battle of Al Mansoura validity?  Interesting…

Syria displayed wreckage after knocking down 6 phantoms on the 7th, if the EAF got 17 F-4s a week later...

So only SAMs should be used?

Both were needed but SAMs, especially the SA-6, were much more likely to be effective than MIGs, with all their drawbacks and limitations--lousy atolls, too little ammo, poor cockpit visibility….

Also, the bastards thought they could repeat the same success they had in 1967 finding all EAF aircraft just sitting on the tarmac like sitting ducks hahahaha little did they know that the EAF had built hardened shelters

Lol of course they knew about the hardened shelters. Dayan gave that as a reason not to preempt in '73--it wouldn't have been as effective as in '67.

BTW, why do you suppose that for the longest time, and even until today, that the US hasn't supplied Egypt with any AMRAAMs, specifically the AIM-120?  For the longest time, Egypt was the ONLY country that was denied that missile despite Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman, Qatar, Morroco, the Turks recieved the AIM-120B and even JORDAN!!!  Which is right next to Jerusalem!!! All have been given the AIM-120 except Egypt despite it having the 4th largest fleet of F-16s.  AND it signed the CISMOA act in 2018 (non transfer of technology to 3rd parties) which supposedly was the sticking point and turned out to be a lie since after signing it, Egypt requested the AIM-120 and AIM-9X and still was refused!  All of this because they realized the monster of the air had woken up in that battle and the EAF is greatly feared by the Jews because of that.  

Jordan is nowhere near as big or potentially strong as Egypt. I think israeli concerns don't stem from mansoura specifically just a realization the EAF could do much better with better weapons--much better--than what it had in '73.

Luckily now, Dassault and MBDA has supplied the EAF and its Rafales with the MICA ER & IR as well as 100 SCALPs + another 300 SCALPs with the 2nd order of 30 Rafales which also includes a batch of approximately 300 Meteor missile in that contract.  That missile will completely change the QME in the ME and launch the EAF right up there.

Great!

 Hopefully the EAF gives the US the middle finger on the F-15 offers which are absolutely terrible and start receiving the Su-35s.  The Russians don't impose ludicrous restrictions on the use of their fighters like the US does.  

Good points, I hope so too.

There is also news that Italy has agreed to the EAF's request to expedite the start of Eurofighter Typhoon deliveries out of the stock of aircraft that are currently being final assembled for the Italian air force.  Those are also expected to be delivered with meteor missiles which the US will certainly go to bat for the Jews to do everything in its power to stop that veritable, game-changing missile from coming to Egypt.

It's interesting that Egypt continues to build conventional strength despite all the rhetoric about terrorists. Neither Egypt nor israel fully trusts the other and I've long thought we haven't seen the last of Mideast wars, "normalization" notwithstanding.

starman wrote:

Gomig-21 wrote:
The fact that fighter pilots are almost always type-A personalities and that being sworn into a military role where your training costs the same as the value of 20 houses and your handed the responsibility of equipment worth …..it's millions of $ and that you take an oath of being faithful to your assignment and hold the best values of any discipline and are honorable which should be well enough to trust their statements to be the truth.

But only EAF pilots not Israelis?

 The fact that there is some donkey out there questioning the truthfulness ...claiming it was a ploy by Mubarak to gain some idiotic heroism is a disgrace beyond belief.

There's no claim he did it to promote himself just that Sadat or his regime hyped mansoura to bolster the position of a new member or supporter.

Ok, now, if the mega Egyptian Air Defense shot down 200 enemy aircraft, where are all the pictures of even half that many aircraft?  

A lot of those knocked down near the narrow bridgehead could've fallen beyond the reach of the Egyptians. Its wasn't like the delta.


 

So why isn't there the same cry for corroboration with pictures of wreckages of 200+ enemy fighters shot down by SAMs yet it's somehow necessary to give the Air Battle of Al Mansoura validity?  Interesting…

Syria displayed wreckage after knocking down 6 phantoms on the 7th, if the EAF got 17 F-4s a week later...

So only SAMs should be used?

Both were needed but SAMs, especially the SA-6, were much more likely to be effective than MIGs, with all their drawbacks and limitations--lousy atolls, too little ammo, poor cockpit visibility….

Also, the bastards thought they could repeat the same success they had in 1967 finding all EAF aircraft just sitting on the tarmac like sitting ducks hahahaha little did they know that the EAF had built hardened shelters

Lol of course they knew about the hardened shelters. Dayan gave that as a reason not to preempt in '73--it wouldn't have been as effective as in '67.

BTW, why do you suppose that for the longest time, and even until today, that the US hasn't supplied Egypt with any AMRAAMs, specifically the AIM-120?  For the longest time, Egypt was the ONLY country that was denied that missile despite Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman, Qatar, Morroco, the Turks recieved the AIM-120B and even JORDAN!!!  Which is right next to Jerusalem!!! All have been given the AIM-120 except Egypt despite it having the 4th largest fleet of F-16s.  AND it signed the CISMOA act in 2018 (non transfer of technology to 3rd parties) which supposedly was the sticking point and turned out to be a lie since after signing it, Egypt requested the AIM-120 and AIM-9X and still was refused!  All of this because they realized the monster of the air had woken up in that battle and the EAF is greatly feared by the Jews because of that.  

Jordan is nowhere near as big or potentially strong as Egypt. I think israeli concerns don't stem from mansoura specifically just a realization the EAF could do much better with better weapons--much better--than what it had in '73.

Luckily now, Dassault and MBDA has supplied the EAF and its Rafales with the MICA ER & IR as well as 100 SCALPs + another 300 SCALPs with the 2nd order of 30 Rafales which also includes a batch of approximately 300 Meteor missile in that contract.  That missile will completely change the QME in the ME and launch the EAF right up there.

Great!

 Hopefully the EAF gives the US the middle finger on the F-15 offers which are absolutely terrible and start receiving the Su-35s.  The Russians don't impose ludicrous restrictions on the use of their fighters like the US does.  

Good points, I hope so too.

There is also news that Italy has agreed to the EAF's request to expedite the start of Eurofighter Typhoon deliveries out of the stock of aircraft that are currently being final assembled for the Italian air force.  Those are also expected to be delivered with meteor missiles which the US will certainly go to bat for the Jews to do everything in its power to stop that veritable, game-changing missile from coming to Egypt.

It's interesting that Egypt continues to build conventional strength despite all the rhetoric about terrorists. Neither Egypt nor israel fully trusts the other and I've long thought we haven't seen the last of Mideast wars, "normalization" notwithstanding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTLEdJZdJME&t=1s Totally ignored my HENRY KISSINGER video of him saying 400 Tanks and 40 Israeli jets were destroyed in the first 2 days only https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTLEdJZdJME&t=1s Minute 13:00

awmz wrote:
Totally ignored my HENRY KISSINGER video of him saying 400 Tanks and 40 Israeli jets were destroyed in the first 2 days only

I never disputed that. The Israelis suffered high initial losses in part because they had to deal with arab armies instead of focusing on SEAD. Ergo, Tagar and dougman didn't work. Loss rates fell, however, after they gained the upper hand and used armor for SEAD late in the war.

Sa-6 did lot of damage to israeli forces.

Isos wrote:Sa-6 did lot of damage to israeli forces.

Just the air force. The SAM-6 was most effective in part because the Israelis could jam the SAM-2 and SAM-3.

starman wrote:

Isos wrote:Sa-6 did lot of damage to israeli forces.

Just the air force. The SAM-6 was most effective in part because the Israelis could jam the SAM-2 and SAM-3.

Just shows you don't know what you're talking about SAM-6 Wasn't part of the Sam wall along the Suez It was among the land formations and were very few in numbers that's one of the main reasons the Egyptians couldn't advance beyond the Sam wall coverage it simply didn't have enough mobile air defense systems SAM-2/3 Did most of the heavy work

awmz wrote: SAM-6 Wasn't part of the Sam wall along the Suez It was among the land formations and were very few in numbers

I didn't say the SAM-6 was part of the SAM wall or it was numerous, just that it was effective.

SAM-2/3 Did most of the heavy work

But could be jammed by F-4s, which often flew too low for them.

According to wiki, so take it with a grain of salt, israeli had 440 combat aircraft at the start of Yom kippur war and SA-6 killed 40 of them which is 1/11th of their total.

Strela-2 did a good job too.