Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

That would be Russian missile on F-16?

PapaDragon wrote:
That would be Russian missile on F-16?

Harpoon on f-16 second pic. Kh-35 on mig-29M first pic.

Impossible to use one on the other.

This should make the Egyptian army has a complex combination of anti-ship missiles .

Harpoon
Otomat
Moskit
KH-31
KH-35
Exocet
P-15
HY-1J
SaabRBS-15 Mk3 will come with the MEKO frigate .

State Department warns Egypt against purchasing Russian fighter jets

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2021/02/23/US-foreign-policy-State-Department-warns-Egypt-against-purchasing-Russian-fighter-jets

Perhaps Egypt should pass a new law stating that foreign sovereign countries that seek to control Egypt using their own domestic laws and illegal sanctions to punish Egypt for doing as it pleases in terms of international purchases can be sued and their assets seized to compensate any Egyptian entity or citizen or company whose income or interests are damaged by unilateral sanctions imposed by said foreign nation.

An ally that tells you what you can or cannot do in situations that are none of their business is not an ally.

Especially when their advice runs counter to your own safety, defence and security.

A Trusted Egyptian Military Affairs Researcher / Defense Analyst claimed he contacted a couple of Egyptian Su-35 pilots and confirmed the first batch has already arrived in Egypt but probably won't be seen by the public any time soon like they did with the S-300VM

awmz wrote:A Trusted Egyptian Military Affairs Researcher / Defense Analyst claimed he contacted a couple of Egyptian Su-35 pilots and confirmed the first batch has already arrived in Egypt but probably won't be seen by the public any time soon like they did with the S-300VM

They were already seen in Russia. They didn't hide mig-29 neither they won't hide su-35.

GarryB wrote:
Especially when their advice runs counter to your own safety, defence and security.

Actually this is the US target .To maintain an Israeli superiority by giving a specific and limited weapons to Egypt .

I'm sure Israelis has a hand on this too by pushing the US new administration to apply sanctions on Egypt because not only EAF gaining more capabilities than what US planned for but Israelis don't know much data about such weapons ,on the other side Egypt can test such aircrafts against EAF,UAE F-16 and some F-15 from Saudis during any future maneuvers .

Israelis can do nothing without their airforce ,their navy can't operate far without airforce cover ( that's why Egypt made a naval blockade on the strait of bab el mandeb on YK war because IAF can't reach there that time and stopped Israeli oil that was coming from Iran ) and their land forces can't work forward without IAF (that's why they lost 300 tanks in two days in YK war when they tried to open the Egyptian defences on barlev line without support from IAF which was stopped by the Egyptian SAM line ).

So it's critical for them that neighbours could have anything that may threaten their airforce .

Egypt should buy Bal-E system with kh-35 and use them against israeli airport. With 400-600 missiles launched against knows israeli aircraft shelters at once they will easily destroy at least 50% of their airforce.

I think one Bal has 32 ready to fire missiles so they can buy 15 of them.

Israel has to strategical deapth (like Pakistan vs India). With a cruise missile of 300km you can touch almost all their airports.

No need for a big air force. Now it's the first to launch a massive strike attack with cruise missiles that wins.

That is good but their small area giving them a better chance to make a multiple AD layers against such scenarios ,still they can save an enough part from their airforce .

Having a big airfore is necessary to counter their sneaky scenarios as they used to do ,also to hunt their navy

ahmedfire wrote:That is good but their small area giving them a better chance to make a multiple AD layers against such scenarios ,still they can save an enough part from their airforce .

Having a big airfore is necessary to counter their sneaky scenarios as they used to do ,also to hunt their navy

Their AD is small. They have to move iron domes north/south according to who, between hamas or hezbollah, will attack them.

They have no chance against a massive attack of hundreds of cruise missile, backed by long range MLRS (like serbian Sumadija or belorussian Polonezh), SRBM and use of anti radar kh-31 against early warning radars.

If you want more chance then just creat dummy missiles to attract AD missiles. Egyptian can do this easily and launch them from il-76 minutes before the attack.

Their AD isn't even optimized for attacks from the west above the sea.

Fight a sneaky opponent with overwhelming attacks. That works fine.

Their navy can be tracked by ground radars. They are also less than 400km away from Egypt. And can also be attack by ground launchers easily.

They were already seen in Russia. They didn't hide mig-29 neither they won't hide su-35.

They were not told by the US that they could not buy MiG-29s... unlike the Su-35s...

So it's critical for them that neighbours could have anything that may threaten their airforce .

Very true, but not something Egypt should have to care about... they should be buying the military equipment they think they need, not what their neighbours and the US thinks they can have...

Israel has to strategical deapth (like Pakistan vs India). With a cruise missile of 300km you can touch almost all their airports.

The short range also limits the amount of time they have to stop them, but it is not a 100% slam dunk either...

Fight a sneaky opponent with overwhelming attacks. That works fine.

Like the US, their strength is that they appear strong, but if you look at that in detail there are obvious gaps and weaknesses... training with India showed that if you take out the force multipliers like AWACS and JSTARS then one on one they can be beaten by well trained opponents...

The short range also limits the amount of time they have to stop them, but it is not a 100% slam dunk either...

You can hope to counter a cruise missile attack only with AD and the detection range is still 40km at most by any radars.

It's even better for the cruise missiles since they will travel a short distance between early detection and hitting targets.

Very small window to try to shot them.

Russia on the opposite will detect such attack with OTH radars and will have 2-2.5 hours before the reach their target. They have time to move and set up their air defence., even load missiles if they were not ready.

Like the US, their strength is that they appear strong, but if you look at that in detail there are obvious gaps and weaknesses... training with India showed that if you take out the force multipliers like AWACS and JSTARS then one on one they can be beaten by well trained opponents...

Well training 24/7 your army of 1.5 million soldiers is impossible.

Having the best and mosy costly training program for all the pilots flying a fleet of thousand expensive aircraft is impossible.

At least they have good trainings and overwhelming power. That plays in their favor.

China is the same but in worse since they grow in 15 years and have no real experience at war.

ahmedfire wrote:https://www.facebook.com/103344724583985/videos/1128472277608724

A released video showing EAF is using  KH-35 .




Also it's the first photo of Harpoon on F-16.

Just saw that use of kh-35 on twitter. It seems it targeted a ground target which suggests they got the kh-35U versions.

It is probably improved over the normal exporr version. I never saw they could be used against ground targets.

Only russians kh-35 were used against ground targets in Syria.

Yes it's KH-35UE which can target sea and land targets ,it has a doubled range of Kh-35E .

The engine is less in weight than the one on Kh-35E, and an increase in the volume of the fuel tank. The air intake is smaller and takes up little space in the tail section, which also made it possible to further increase the fuel supply .

Isos wrote:

ahmedfire wrote:https://www.facebook.com/103344724583985/videos/1128472277608724

A released video showing EAF is using  KH-35 .




Also it's the first photo of Harpoon on F-16.

Just saw that use of kh-35 on twitter. It seems it targeted a ground target which suggests they got the kh-35U versions.

It is probably improved over the normal exporr version. I never saw they could be used against ground targets.

Only russians kh-35 were used against ground targets in Syria.

So this is the 2015 upgraded version with 300km range and ability to strike ground targets?

Yes but it is 260km range.

Isos wrote:
Just saw that use of kh-35 on twitter. It seems it targeted a ground target which suggests they got the kh-35U versions.

It is probably improved over the normal exporr version. I never saw they could be used against ground targets.

Only russians kh-35 were used against ground targets in Syria.

Interesting how sometimes we don't realize that even the most trusted information out there doesn't necessarily reflect the realities on the ground.

Now I can only hope that the RVV-AE is also not the only type of medium range missile that came with the MiG-29M/35 but also the SD!

The other interesting thing that is on that video that passes by very quickly and you need to be very smooth and fast to pick up on it and maybe even pause it to get a good look at it is one of the MiG-29M/35 is buddy-buddy refueling one of the Rafales! Now there is something you definitely don't see everyday. It's early in the video with all the quick airplane clips. Very cool and certainly unique.

Isos wrote:Yes but it is 260km range.

Can the Mig29m carry the Kh-59MK2 i know the Su-35 can

awmz wrote:

Isos wrote:Yes but it is 260km range.

Can the Mig29m carry the Kh-59MK2 i know the Su-35 can

It is not in service yet but it should.

awmz wrote:

Isos wrote:Yes but it is 260km range.

Can the Mig29m carry the Kh-59MK2 i know the Su-35 can

Old one or the new one? New one is not in service yet, old one is too big and too heavy for MiG-29M. Su-24M and flankers use them.

Isos wrote:
You can hope to counter a cruise missile attack only with AD and the detection range is still 40km at most by any radars.

It's even better for the cruise missiles since they will travel a short distance between early detection and hitting targets.

Very small window to try to shot them.

Russia on the opposite will detect such attack with OTH radars and will have 2-2.5 hours before the reach their target. They have time to move and set up their air defence., even load missiles if they were not ready.

Why only 40km?  Those are the ranges of some of the shorter range SAM missile systems in the Egyptian Armed Forces, even the IRIST-T-SL which Egypt bought 7 batteries of from Germany a couple of years ago is around that range.  But then there is also the S-300VM.

And you do know that there are two types of OTT radars already operating in Egypt between the Protivnik-GE and the Resonance-NE.  So not everything is relegated to only 40km range for Egyptian SAM systems.

Unless I misunderstood you and you were referring to what the IDF has and not the EAF?

You can detect them with OTH radars further away but targeting radar are limited by radar horizon which is around 40km at low altitudes used by cruise missiles.

S-300 is also limited by that and can shoot them down only at such range.

Isos wrote:You can detect them with OTH radars further away but targeting radar are limited by radar horizon which is around 40km at low altitudes used by cruise missiles.

S-300 is also limited by that and can shoot them down only at such range.

A SAM system that -- by definition -- has the range of over 200km for most airborne objects and they'll only get 40 km out of them against low flying cruise missiles?   There is no way on this great green earth that anyone can be convinced of such disappointment, good sir!

From what I know, the incredible new SAM network the Egyptian Armed Force and in particular, the Air Defense Department which is an entire military branch in its own in Egypt put together the last 5 years has been very impressive and pretty optimized to the point where we were wondering why they even bothered with the German IRIS-T-SL with all the other types of SAMs they have (including the fascinating Chaparral) and of course, the S-300VM.  We ended up figuring out what the reason was.  But that gives you just a small snippet as to the level of the EADS and what they've put together.

Taking OTH radars -- and in this case in the pic, the Resonance-NE -- and while keeping them mobile for securing them from attack, they build these ramps to elevate them.  Get them up there quick, do their thing, then dismount and down the ramp and away they go or into underground terminals or bunkers until the next go-around.  



Taking distances to the horizon at sea level, typically it's about 20 km.  Raise the platform (or object) up 30 meters (I know those in the pics are not that high, just a number I'm familiar with) and the horizon is now at a distance of 36 km.  

So if 40km is some parameter for the S-300VM against low-flying cruise missiles, something doesn't add up since they're already getting an additional 4 km out of the distance which is actually more since I doubt those ramps are anywhere close to 30 meters high above sea level LOL.  So why only 40km?

And here's the other thing: there are many ways to steer the targeting process away from the radar and give it to the automated command center which is what I think is most likely the case for sure.  This is the newly build EADS command and control center.





Egypt also uses the Commander SL (pic below) which is a British made early warning 3D radar, and is capable of detecting cruise missiles, UAVs and specific long-range air munitions. This is part of Egypt's coastal surveillance in a multi-layered tiered system.  



I mentioned to you the network they operate all their mixed fleet of fighter jets in, yes?  I was trying to find where you had mentioned that they should buy a couple of Beriev A-50s because there was no way that any of the MiG-29M/35s or the newly coming Su-35SEs would be able to work with the 8 E-2C Hawkeyes the EAF has in its fleet, but they operate everything under this newly developed RISC2 which I explained in the other thread.  

Eventually we'll get the name of this newly, combined air defense network that creates a central command for all the radar information and is automated to prioritize target selection and even orders outside systems to launch against incoming targets, then we'll post the name.  Until then, we know they've got all these capabilities it would be incredibly disappointing to think the S-300VM's success/efficacy would be limited to 40km just for low-flying cruise missiles.  It has to perform much better than that range.

BTW, the EADS has been very interested in the Bastion coastal defense system and has been in talks with Russia for a while now, trying to make a deal work. Imagine adding that to this already potent network.

Can the Mig29m carry the Kh-59MK2 i know the Su-35 can

The MiG-29M2/35 family of fighters should be able to carry most most new tactical weapons... certainly the ones modified to fit internally on the Su-57s should be useable, if not the larger original versions.

There was a conceptual and functional difference in previous generation tactical Soviet missiles where some were simple and relatively light like the Kh-25 families of missiles, while others like the AS-11 and AS-13/18 that required pods to use them effectively... the pod for the AS-11 detected enemy radar signals and determined their physical location in terms of coordinates so that if the AS-11 was fired and the source radar turned off the missile would still explode somewhere near the radar antenna and its 150kg blast fragmentation warhead should blow it down and take it out. Obviously the AS-13/18 pod was a datalink with a forward and rear facing antenna so the missiles could be launched and their video capture of the scene near the target area could be used to select a target manually from the launch aircraft, and the missile would then home in and kill that target with the launch aircraft remaining outside the targets air defence range.

Obviously a light tactical aircraft like an Su-7 or Su-17 or MiG-27 couldn't operate such weapons, they were normally used on Su-24 strike aircraft, the lighter aircraft normally used the shorter ranged less sophisticated AS-12 type Anti radiation missiles instead... but much more modern aircraft as used today have much more capable self defence ESW suites and no longer require pods for the newer types of weapons. I would expect the datalink for new long range EO guided weapons will probably via the L band AESA array in the wingroot of their Sukhois, or AESA radars...

The SU-35 and Su-30 and MiG-29M2/29KR/35 as well as upgraded MiG-31BMs will probably be more plug and play in terms of the new weapons they are developing for the new and next gen fighters.

There are some weight limits for the MiGs of course, but the targets they would normally be used against that wouldn't matter too much... for instance tactical fighters would not carry AS-9 missiles either because of their size... it was essentially based on the Kh-22M and was rather too large for most non bomber types to carry.

In terms of weight the KH-59MK2 is only 900kgs so it should be able to carry them, but I would think the new versions that are of a square profile and shorter designed for internal carriage on the Su-57 would be a better fit... it also has a greater flight range I suspect.

Why only 40km?

I think he is referring to all AD around the world... a low flying target certainly can be detected, especially by airborne radar, but for most SAMs like S-300, because of ground clutter they normally can't get locks at more than 40km depending on terrain. With low hills it could be much shorter range than this.

A SAM system that -- by definition -- has the range of over 200km for most airborne objects and they'll only get 40 km out of them against low flying cruise missiles? There is no way on this great green earth that anyone can be convinced of such disappointment, good sir!

The whole purpose of low flying bombers and low flying cruise missiles is the difficulty of ground based systems to detect and track and to engage such targets.

Airborne radar can detect them obviously, but in peace time are rarely used to patrol airspace... plus detection is only the first part of the puzzle... a cruise missile will often have a complex flight path weaving through mountains and hills, attacking from unexpected directions... look at the attack on Saudi Arabia... those drones and missiles obviously skirted around radars... made easier because Patriots radars are fixed 120 degree angle scanners, but still it takes talent to plan and achieve...

Low flying targets are hard... the Soviets and Russians have spent enormous amounts of funds and time and energy getting to where they are now where they could probably blunt even a heavy cruise missile attack... but very few other countries are anywhere near that level.

Having a few TORs and a few OSAs just isn't in the same league, but western experts would have you believe Russian AD systems in NK failed... so Russia must be vulnerable to drones... completely ignoring what is happening in Syria.

(including the fascinating Chaparral)

Chaparral is a ground launched Sidewinder... it is what happens when an army needs a missile system but no money so they go to the air force and say please can we have a missile and they say... sure have this.

Taking distances to the horizon at sea level, typically it's about 20 km. Raise the platform (or object) up 30 meters (I know those in the pics are not that high, just a number I'm familiar with) and the horizon is now at a distance of 36 km.

He was being generous... many SAM systems can't hit targets below 30m altitude at more than 10-15km.... HAWK can't hit things below 60m at any distance so would be useless against subsonic cruise missiles.

And here's the other thing: there are many ways to steer the targeting process away from the radar and give it to the automated command center which is what I think is most likely the case for sure. This is the newly build EADS command and control center.

The solution is an integrated air defence network that links all your air defence batteries with all your radar stations... in the case of Russia that means the cruise missile can be detected probably just after it has been launched 3,000km away, and as it approaches the air defence systems on its flight path can be activated to look out for the cruise missile... for an S-300 battery to engage it it would need accurate target information, but as it uses track via missile guidance the low altitude shouldn't matter too much.

With S-350 using active radar homing missiles it should be able to attack low flying targets out to its max effective range.

Until then, we know they've got all these capabilities it would be incredibly disappointing to think the S-300VM's success/efficacy would be limited to 40km just for low-flying cruise missiles. It has to perform much better than that range.

It would not be efficient to use such systems for shooting down cruise missiles... it would be like trying to kill rabbits by dropping pianos on them.