Egyptian Air Force (EAF)

Isos wrote: And theyvare going to be upgraded to UPG standard like other indian mig-29s.

How is Mig 29M/M2 radically different from Mig 29UPG ? Hardly any difference.

Isos wrote:Your source is from 2007. They never got aesa radar and the upgrade was made to UPG stabdard. They won't get AEA any time soon. Su-30MKI have the priority and not all of them will be upgraded.

KRET itself in a press release from 2015 said that Mig 29UPG have AESA radars

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/162075/upgraded-mig_29upg-for-india-begins-flight-tests.html

The upgraded aircraft will not only have expanded capabilities in fighting air targets, but will acquire the ability to attack ground and naval targets at any time of day and in any weather condition.

The integration of the Zhuk-ME radar, developed by KRET, into the avionics of the MiG-29UPG enables such capabilities.

Isos wrote:And they don't need any upgrade as their mig-29 are used for air defence/interception.

Then why did they upgrade their Mig 29s to Mig 29 UPG? Why did Russia upgrade its own Mig 29s? They are still used for escort, for interception.

How is Mig 29M/M2 radically different from Mig 29UPG ? Hardly any difference.

UPG is an upgrade to an older mig-29 variant to M standard. A Mig-29M is a newly build aircraft.

I'm not sure but I doubt the UPG has fly by wire while M version have it. It also has an added fuel tank like on SMT version. The M version has as much range as UPG but without the added fuel tank so there is a better internal design.

KRET itself in a press release from 2015 said that Mig 29UPG have AESA radars

Zhuk M is not an AESA neither a PESA. It's a mechanical dopler radar. Russian SMT also have it and they are not particularly big fans of it.

The first zukh AESA radar is the MA not the M (ME being its export version).

Then why did they upgrade their Mig 29s to Mig 29 UPG? Why did Russia upgrade its own Mig 29s? They are still used for escort, for interception.

Mig-29 had a small range not suited for big countries like india or russia. Russia don't want the mig29 anymore. They don't even want the mig35 if doesn't have the AESA radar. They don't like it anymore.

I think they upgraded it because they both lacked enough fighter/bombers so an upgraded mig-29 with more capabilities than only interception was needed. And the mig29 was totally surpassed by newest f18, rafale, eurofighter and the only good version at that moment was the M. So they had to upgrade them. I would add also that the only missile being used are 2 small range r27 on the first pylons only and 4 r-73 or unguided bombs and rockets. That sucks for modern jets.

Now you see that if india had the choice they would rather buy rafales or su-30mki but they are much more expensive   while mig29upg can still do some jobs for cheaper. Russia is phasing them out at the speed of light.

Egypt got KH-31 on her MIGs

Is this antiship or anti radiation variant ?

Isos wrote:

How is Mig 29M/M2 radically different from Mig 29UPG ? Hardly any difference.

UPG is an upgrade to an older mig-29 variant to M standard. A Mig-29M is a newly build aircraft.

I'm not sure but I doubt the UPG has fly by wire while M version have it. It also has an added fuel tank like on SMT version. The M version has as much range as UPG but without the added fuel tank so there is a better internal design.

KRET itself in a press release from 2015 said that Mig 29UPG have AESA radars

Zhuk M is not an AESA neither a PESA. It's a mechanical dopler radar. Russian SMT also have it and they are not particularly big fans of it.

The first zukh AESA radar is the MA not the M (ME being its export version).

Then why did they upgrade their Mig 29s to Mig 29 UPG? Why did Russia upgrade its own Mig 29s? They are still used for escort, for interception.

Mig-29 had a small range not suited for big countries like india or russia. Russia don't want the mig29 anymore. They don't even want the mig35 if doesn't have the AESA radar. They don't like it anymore.

I think they upgraded it because they both lacked enough fighter/bombers so an upgraded mig-29 with more capabilities than only interception was needed. And the mig29 was totally surpassed by newest f18, rafale, eurofighter and the only good version at that moment was the M. So they had to upgrade them. I would add also that the only missile being used are 2 small range r27 on the first pylons only and 4 r-73 or unguided bombs and rockets. That sucks for modern jets.

Now you see that if india had the choice they would rather buy rafales or su-30mki but they are much more expensive   while mig29upg can still do some jobs for cheaper. Russia is phasing them out at the speed of light.

I am not sure that the Mig29M has much to envy from the F18, and the Mig35 with new radars and the possibility to use the latest weapons of new generation is at least on par with Rafal and Eurofighter.

I am not sure that the Mig29M has much to envy from the F18, and the Mig35 with new radars and the possibility to use the latest weapons of new generation is at least on par with Rafal and Eurofighter.

That's what i say. I was talking about older first versions of mig29.

Mig-29M was already at the same level as rafale and typhoon because both had also a mechanical dopler radar. Typhoon has it still.

Mig-35 is on par with newest rafales with aesa radar. Typhoon is still behind with its mechanical dopler radar that is not a match against modern jamers.

I read that India has placed orders with Russia for 21 brand new Mig 29s( that means MiG-29M/M2, isn't it?) . Since India will fly the Mig 29s for the next 10 years at least Russia can sell the Mig 35 incrementally as technological enhancements instead of selling the entire package/aircraft

AFAIK the older MiG-29s had a metal structure/frame with skin attached, whereas the new models are made differently, not sure of the technical terminology... suffice to say the old model MiGs had bladders or fuel tank structures inside them to hold fuel whereas the new models each compartment is sealed off and can be used as a fuel tank if you wish meaning rather more fuel capacity with less weight.

So they can upgrade the engines of the Mig 29 with that of the Mig 35, then do the same for the sensors and weapons package. Eventually within 10 years the Indian Mig 29s will essentially be Mig 35s.

In a sense they could but the old MiG can never be the same as the newer models because of the different structure and way they are made... think of the older models including the Soviet S and SM and SMT models as being the SMT family, while the MiG-29M and the current M2 and -33 and -35 models are the new type.

You can put the bits you put in the new models into the old models but the old models will be heavier and with less capacity in terms of fuel and payload capacity.

Better buy mig-35 and phase out mig-29 when times come.

Their current MiG-29s should be good for a few years yet, it makes sense for them to keep them and retire their MiG-21s and MiG-27s and Jaguars first.

They could also save a lot of money by buying MiG-29M2s for now in large numbers... over time they can upgrade them to MiG-35 standard... I would probably order about 250 MiG-29M2s and perhaps 50 MiG-35s and with the experience of perhaps 5 years operating them all they can decide what features of the MiG-35 are worth the money and upgrade their 250 MiG-29M2s with those parts that are more expensive but worth while... remember the main complaint about the MiG-29SMT in Syria was that it wasn't incorporated in the IADS... which has also been a problem for India...

Indians already have engines for their migs. Mig35 uses a newer version. If india wants to upgrade them with mig35 engines and avionics they will need to buy those engines and radars which are expensive.

They could save money and improve commonality by upgrading radar and IRST and Engines across their Fulcrum fleet to maximise their spares pool... they could perhaps negotiate a deal for local production and joint development for an upgrade of both as well.

MiG tend to be the poor cousin in Russia... they could boost performance with a money injection from India to get a nice mediumweight fighter that could form the basis of a new stealth fighter for them...

Plane's engines need many spare parts to be changed often when used. Right now india has spare parts for its engines but if they go for mig-35's engines they will need new spare parts so it will increase cost.

Of course... they should fly MiG-21s only because they are cheap... you were talking about 2 billion dollars for spares support for 100 fighters how can you call that too expensive when they spent almost 8 billion on 36 French fighters?

Should they only spend lots of money on French aircraft?

Russian planes now need to be better than western aircraft and also remain cheap to buy and cheap to operate... a bit unfair and unrealistic.

Do you have any source for such claim. I don't remember reading about a program to upgrade mig-29 to mig-35.

Putting an AESA radar in a MiG-29SMT or UPG does not make it a MiG-35.

I said ground crew should be trained. Maintenance is not the same since mig35 uses a newer engine so the ground crew should be teached avout maintaining this new engine which makes the upgrade more costly.

Nothing compared with the cost of continuing to use MiG-21s and not training personnel to work with other engine types... BTW don't know about you but when I buy a new computer I don't have to go back to university to learn how to install the new version of Windows on it... the guys who work on these aircraft and these engines get manuals and when they give them new engines they get new manuals too...

Also mig-35 uses fly by wire contrary to mig 29.

Yeah, not that big a deal... the 29 already had a flight control system with a force feedback joystick... I believe the first ones were analog but later ones were digital... but it really doesn't make a huge difference except in weight and potential for battle damage etc etc... and of course improved performance.

Your source is from 2007. They never got aesa radar and the upgrade was made to UPG stabdard. They won't get AEA any time soon. Su-30MKI have the priority and not all of them will be upgraded.

And they don't need any upgrade as their mig-29 are used for air defence/interception.

As production of AESA modules ramps up they become smaller and cheaper and more powerful, while using less power and producing less heat... eventually they will likely fit them to all their aircraft.

How is Mig 29M/M2 radically different from Mig 29UPG ? Hardly any difference.

The structural design of the aircraft is different... You can't upgrade from the older to the newer.

The M2 shares its design structure with the KR (33) and the 35 and is like the original M model from the late 1980s in that it is a lighter stronger structure with more capacity to carry fuel in empty cells.

Egypt got KH-31 on her MIGs

Is this antiship or anti radiation variant ?

Hard to tell externally, but the Soviets actually intended to use both in naval attacks... the first wave of missiles would be the anti ship models followed by the anti radiation missiles... when the first wave turned on their radars to find their targets it was expected that the enemy ships would turn on their radars to detect the incoming threats and SAMs to defend themselves, which the next wave of ARMs would lock on to passively... AFAIK the anti ship models also have an anti radiation mode where they will listen for active radar sources and compare them with their radar return so if the radar target they locked on has an active radar signal coming from it then it will stop scanning with is own radar and attack below the active source... checking with active radar near the target to ensure it is not a decoy and active jammer decoying the missile away.

GarryB wrote:
The M2 shares its design structure with the KR (33) and the 35 and is like the original M model from the late 1980s in that it is a lighter stronger structure with more capacity to carry fuel in empty cells.

So the M2 is similar to the Mig 29K that India bought, right ?

Is the Mig 29K, fly by wire ? It doesn't have an AESA radar though.

GarryB wrote:Russian planes now need to be better than western aircraft and also remain cheap to buy and cheap to operate... a bit unfair and unrealistic.

Moreover, Indian pilots are poorly trained as was evident last year when Pakistan shot down Indian Mig 21 but Indian Air Force couldn't shoot down any Pakistani fighter (though they lied about shooting down a F-16)

If that's not enough India doesn't have too many pilots either. For Russian Air Force the ratio is 1:4, for every 1 aircraft they have 4 pilots. Corresponding ratio for India 1:1.5.  

So the M2 is similar to the Mig 29K that India bought, right ?

Is the Mig 29K, fly by wire ? It doesn't have an AESA radar though.

The M2 and the KR and the 35 share the same airframe which is a two seater design whether it is the two seat model or the single seat model, unlike the original MiG-29 family where the single seat and the twin seat models had different front shapes.

My understanding is that the wing just bolts on to the airframe so the KR will have a larger are wing with larger control surfaces to allow safe flight at lower speeds and also designed to fold for carrier operations but that same wing could be fitted to the M2 or the 35... which means that in 10 years time they could build some extra 35s with folding wings for use on carriers.

Once they get AESA fighter radars in production the costs will come down and the performance will get better to the point where the performance is good enough to make the increased costs worth it... the more AESA radars you build the cheaper production becomes... the cost of setting up production is relatively fixed and then production costs become materials and labour so the more modules you make the lower the price per module... if you can use the same modules in land based AESA radars as well as ship based models etc etc then the number of modules you are making becomes enormous... hundreds of millions, and as you make more your experience grows and new functions and capabilities can be added to all AESA radar users... of course they might have photonic AESA radars almost ready for service and not want to spend money on conventional AESA radars when a generational improvement is about to become ready instead.

The M2 is a bit like an Su-27SM3 while the 35 is like an Su-35... basically the same looking aircraft but fitted with different bits that are more capable but also more expensive... often the best is not needed so you can save money in the short term and get more aircraft into service... later down the track with experience you will work out what works and what does not and whether this feature or that one is worth the extra money... and then you can upgrade you M2 with those parts and features to improve performance and increased production of those parts should make them cheaper and easier to support.

I am surprised India didn't do this originally with the MRCA order basically having 300 airframes with 50 being 35s and the rest being M2s, but they wanted french planes... 8 billion for 36 Rafales and 10 years wasted.

A MiG-29M2 could replace MiG-21s in the interceptor role and the MiG-27 in the light strike role but would be more expensive to operate than the 21, but I think the performance improvements in terms of speed and range and weapons as well as radar justify the extra costs...

Moreover, Indian pilots are poorly trained as was evident last year when Pakistan shot down Indian Mig 21 but Indian Air Force couldn't shoot down any Pakistani fighter (though they lied about shooting down a F-16)

I don't think you can assume that... in training exercises with the US they seemed to do very well... if you use a RVV-BD to shoot down their JSTARS and AWACS and of course their inflight refuelling aircraft most NATO pilots wouldn't be very effective either... and NATO makes all sorts of claims that are not credible... Trump said all the 105 cruise missiles fired at Syria hit their targets...

If that's not enough India doesn't have too many pilots either. For Russian Air Force the ratio is 1:4, for every 1 aircraft they have 4 pilots. Corresponding ratio for India 1:1.5.

That just means they need to invest money in training more pilots and improving conditions so more of their pilots remain in air force jobs instead of going for commercial jobs as soon as they can.

Egypt to receive two Russian Su-35 fighter jets in 2020

The deal includes 26 fighter jets and will be fully delivered by mid-2023

Egypt will receive two out of a 26 Sukhoi-35 fighter jets deal early next year, the Russian Expert magazine said.

Despite the American opposition of the deal, Cairo has agreed with Russia to get 26 Sukhoi-35 fighter jets over several batches starting next year, according to the Russian magazine.

The report suggested that Egyptian authorities do not care for American opposition, as the Egyptian Defence Minister Mohamed Zaki said that the progress Egypt has made in all areas of military cooperation with Russia confirms the country’s desire to further develop this collaboration.

Even the Egyptian embassy in Moscow said that the purchase of Russian weapons is a strategic issue and will be completed regardless of any external pressure because it fully achieves the country’s national interests, according to the report.

Last week, the Russian Foreign Ministry described the US threat to impose sanctions on Egypt in case it concluded the Russian Su-35 fighter jets deal, as “aggressive behaviour.”

“We have been alerted by direct threats from US officials to impose sanctions on Egypt on the grounds that Cairo could get the Su-35 fighter jets,” Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova told reporters at earlier press conference.

According to Russia Today, Zakharova noted that such behaviour is “a Washington style”, in which it tries to hinder the development of relations between Russia and other countries.

She added, “when the concept of isolating Russia failed, US moved to Plan B and simply began to intervene in all available means, using all tools and mechanisms including military-technical cooperation.”

“Washington is trying to catch two birds with one stone: hurting Russia and the imposition of US weapons on foreign buyers,” Zakharova added.

Meanwhile, the US State Department officially announced that Egypt’s purchase of Russian fighter jets would put Cairo at risk of sanctions, Reuters reported.

Moreover, the US Assistant Secretary of State for Political and Military Affairs, Rene Clarke Cooper, said, “Egypt is aware of these risks,” at the recent Dubai Airshow.

The Wall Street Journal has revealed that US Defense Secretary Mark Esper and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo have warned Egypt against buying Russian Su-35 fighter jets.

In a warning to Cairo, the two ministers said that “new and large arms deals with Russia will at least affect future defence cooperation agreements between the United States and Egypt, and aid Egypt in ensuring its security,” the newspaper said.

Egypt responded to the US’s threats through exclusive statements dedicated to Daily News Egypt last week, an Egyptian high-ranking state official asserted that Egypt is an “independent state that does not take orders from any other country with regards to its foreign and domestic policies.

The official told Daily News Egypt that what is being reported about US warnings to Egypt to suspend the Su-35 deal with Russia is ‘meaningless’ and should not be taken seriously, asserting that the deal will continue and will not be suspended under any circumstances.

“Egypt does not interfere in any country’s domestic or foreign affairs, likewise we do not allow any other country, policymaker, or whoever to interfere in its internal or foreign affairs. Egypt considers this as an infringement of sovereign rights, which is a red line for us,” the official added.

The official noted that the Egyptian foreign policy has pursued various sources of armament in recent years, and accordingly has military relations with different arms manufacturers’ countries

https://wwww.dailynewssegypt.com/2019/11/25/egypt-to-receive-two-russian-su-35-fighter-jets-in-2020/

It's from NOV-2019 but it's confirmed by SIPRI arms transfers database " mentioned 24 aircrafts " .

How arrogant of the US to think it can bully and threaten another country regarding that countries decisions over its own defence purchases... but they try to tell the world that Russia is the bad guy...

Russia has used the conflict in Syria to roll lots of aircrews through real service with real weapons and real enemies, so if I was an Egyptian pilot I would be very interested to have a chat to some Russian fighter pilots about their experience over Syria especially regarding US F-22 encounters and the potential for Israeli F-35 interactions too...

Would like to see Egypt form closer relations with Syria and Iraq as well as Iran as you are all suffering because of US intervention and interference in the region and you probably have more to gain by improving relations than staying separated by lines drawn on a map.... either pencilled in in meetings between Britain and France in the early 1920s or redrawn in blood by Israel more recently...

GarryB wrote:How arrogant of the US to think it can bully and threaten another country regarding that countries decisions over its own defence purchases... but they try to tell the world that Russia is the bad guy...

Russia has used the conflict in Syria to roll lots of aircrews through real service with real weapons and real enemies, so if I was an Egyptian pilot I would be very interested to have a chat to some Russian fighter pilots about their experience over Syria especially regarding US F-22 encounters and the potential for Israeli F-35 interactions too...

Would like to see Egypt form closer relations with Syria and Iraq as well as Iran as you are all suffering because of US intervention and interference in the region and you probably have more to gain by improving relations than staying separated by lines drawn on a map.... either pencilled in in meetings between Britain and France in the early 1920s or redrawn in blood by Israel more recently...

You know US style of life , threating everyone for US interests .

Egypt along the last 9 years had a good relation with Syria ,at least Egypt didn't support the terrorists there as some arabic countries did , we kept the communications open all time and we think in a strong syria is a part of the Egyptian national security . Relations with Iraq is very good in economic and military sides .

Photo showing the Russian arms to Egypt " including SU-35 " from SIPRI arms transfers database

They could improve their presentation...

They have only 1 load of missiles per mig-29 if each carry 4 rvv ae and 4 r-73. And another 25 of both after all used their missiles. Barely enough. Still not rvv-sd also which is better than the rvv-ae which could also mean none of the export jets can carry it.

The first MiG-29 was very limited as to what it could carry in terms of AAMs... the first ones could carry R-60M types known in the west as the AA-8 Aphid short range AAMs, while the standard BVR missile was the R-27R SARH version of the shorter ranged AA-10 Alamo missile. Latter on the R-73 was added but that was it for air to air missiles for quite a while... the first model Fulcrums couldn't use the extended range AA-10s of any type, and it couldn't use the IR guided R-27s either, so it was only R-73 and R-27R.

Later models added the IR guided Alamos and the longer ranged R-27E models as well as the passive radar homing R-27P/EP.

The MiG-29S added ARH R-77s, and the MiG-29SMT expanded to all sorts of guided missiles.

The MiG-29M2 which Egypt has bought is fully compatible with all AAMs they are developing and will likely include the R-37M or RVV-BD if Egypt wants it... and they probably do if they are buying Su-35s.

The fact that they are buying Su-35s would likely mean they will now boost purchases of missiles to expand their potential....

R-77
KH-38
T-220 targeting pod

Hey fellas. Yeah I'm sorry, I don't think there is much that isn't in this version to simply not call it the MiG-35.  If the issue at hand is that is has the Zhuk-ME and not the designated AESA radar (which still isn't ready after all this time from my understanding) and no TVC which if I'm not mistaken was only an option and not standard equipment that makes this NOT a MiG-35, then that's simply nuts.  This thing holds all the cards for a MiG-35 and IMO that whole business with the M/M2 needs to be dropped immediately.  

So in light of that, here's the STUNNING Egyptian MiG-35! Can't wait to see the EAF Su-35.

First pictures of Egyptian Su-35S fresh off the hot press!  What a beautiful bird and just missing the Egyptian colors.

More pics.

Just on time , it's a turnig point to EAF.

Waiting for US sanctions

Shit, I forgot the image you posted above ahmedfire. Egypt ordered rvv-ae instead of rvv-sd. They seem to have made the same mistake as indian air force. We talked about that in the other tread and I said they may have ordered rvv sd but it seems they didn't.

Isos wrote:Shit, I forgot the image you posted above ahmedfire. Egypt ordered rvv-ae instead of rvv-sd. They seem to have made the same mistake as indian air force. We talked about that in the other tread and I said they may have ordered rvv sd but it seems they didn't.

Having the platform means you can get whatever you need ( except if it a US platform ) .

Also it's hard to exactly trace the Russian arms exports to Egypt ,i remember we got the Tor-M1 in 2005 but there was no a single source to confirm that , after 2 years it showed up in a maneuver .

China also got the same version ,so i'm not sure if the SD one is available right now for export .

Isos wrote:Shit, I forgot the image you posted above ahmedfire. Egypt ordered rvv-ae instead of rvv-sd. They seem to have made the same mistake as indian air force. We talked about that in the other tread and I said they may have ordered rvv sd but it seems they didn't.

How could you possibly know that just by looking at them in that picture?  Is there something that you see like a special marking or a color or a band or something like that to make you able to distinguish between an rvv-ae and an rvv-sd?  

The physical differences are barely distinguishable by eye, let alone off pictures since the sd is slightly longer at 3.71 m (12.2 ft), rather than the 3.6 m (11.8 ft) for the ae, and the sd is only 15 kg (33 lb) heavier.  Seeing that with the naked eye off of pictures is almost impossible unless there is something else like I described earlier that clearly specifies which kind it is?

That would be a pathetically bad choice if that is in fact what they did because there is absolutely no reason to purchase the lesser capable medium range missile when you just bought the aircraft that has the radar and capability to fire the R-77 version that is compatible to the AIM-120 C-5/7.  Why the hell would they ever buy the lesser capable missile would be beyond me.

That was why I asked the question on the other thread that ended up throwing it into a loop of off-topic discussion about that one event and got us all in trouble!  I sincerely hope you're wrong because that would be extremely disappointing.

Look at the picture of the list of weapon they ordered posted by ahmedfire few post above. It is written rvv-ae.

First of all the RVV-AE is not the same missile it was... no doubt its design has been upgraded and improved with new parts.

It is probably all digital by now... and to see the difference between digital and nondigital AAMs look at the American Sparrow AAM whose performance was very very average.... it was not a great missile, but the USN took it and upgraded its electronics and called it the ESSM or something and now they think it is wonderful...

Despite opinion on this forum medium range missiles are not hittiles... a 30% to 40% kill rate against unaware targets with no self defence avionics is as good as AMRAAM is currently performing at, so the bar is not particularly high...

Look at the picture of the list of weapon they ordered posted by ahmedfire few post above. It is written rvv-ae.

They are not always right. Egypt might have declared them as being RVV AEs to put neighbours at ease...