Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
Isos wrote:Look at the picture of the list of weapon they ordered posted by ahmedfire few post above. It is written rvv-ae.
GarryB wrote:First of all the RVV-AE is not the same missile it was... no doubt its design has been upgraded and improved with new parts.
It is probably all digital by now... and to see the difference between digital and nondigital AAMs look at the American Sparrow AAM whose performance was very very average.... it was not a great missile, but the USN took it and upgraded its electronics and called it the ESSM or something and now they think it is wonderful...
Despite opinion on this forum medium range missiles are not hittiles... a 30% to 40% kill rate against unaware targets with no self defence avionics is as good as AMRAAM is currently performing at, so the bar is not particularly high...
They are not always right. Egypt might have declared them as being RVV AEs to put neighbours at ease...
Isos wrote:Accordig to french media, relations btw french and Sisi got hurt when Macron talked about human rights in Egypt to Sisi. No one from Egypt assisted in the delivery of french corvettes and they stoped the talks about more rafales.
Isos wrote:Scalp was stoped by US but french will deliver it with french components only. Also the meteor is very expensive and mica is very good.
Isos wrote:Concerning RVV SD it has nothing to do with Israel. More likely some technical issues (it wouldn't be thenfirst items they present for export but that isn't really ready).
They say for a long time r37 is compatible with su-35 yet its integration started not long ago.
Maybe they wait a foreign order (payement) to make the work for integration. Who knows ?
And what do you mean by "No one from Egypt assisted in the delivery of french corvettes and they stoped the talks about more rafales."??? I don't understand what that means with 'assisting with the deliveries of French corvettes"? 1 corvette was built in France and shipped to Egypt and the other 3 were built in Egypt in the Alexandria shipyard by Egyptian builders as part of the ToT program with those ships. So I don't know what you mean by 'assisting with the delivery?"
Isos wrote:No official was at the ceremony.
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ahmedfire wrote:It seems US was working against Rafale project as it could be a threat to F-35 purchasing plans .They moved against Qatar deal too on some components but it seems France found a way to solve that .
MBDA CEO already said the SCALP issue is solved for Egypt which received it already ,actually Egyptian requested a compensation over the delay and some sources said that Egypt took the half numbers for free for the delay of one year .
Also Egypt has received the Talios targeting Pod ,so i don't see any reason for not receiving the Meteor , only SCALP issue was highlighted in the news not Meteor .
Actually Egypt could purchased it quietly
ahmedfire wrote:I don't think Israel can affect Russia regarding selling arms to Egypt , we received S-300VM and Project 12421 Molniya , KH missile family ,Tor and Buk systems and long range radars and here is SU-35 and T-90.
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30% or 40% is not 0%. All BVR missiles have a low Pk but it is not at 0% so if you launch 2 or 3 missiles you may have a hit.
And most of armies don't have more than 200 modern jets which is very low. You can buy something like 800 air to air missiles with 200 long range SAM missiles and some 200 or 300 cruise or ballistic missiles to destroy them also on the ground, you may destroy those 200 jets with only missiles.
Loosing air superiority means loosing the war today and the few seconds of more to launch that rvv sd gives you over rvv ae could change the war.
Could be that Egypt indeed declared them like that. I guess with su-35 they will also order some r-37. They could target Israeli AWACS from their borders.
You know what? I'm beginning to think that the same, usual shafting that we've been getting for the last 35 years as far as BVR weaponry is happening again, only it's being played in a different format where "certain" missiles are being delivered to the EAF but the real, potent, top of the line long range stuff such as the R-77-1 or what you guys are calling it here, the RVV-SD is being kept away thanks to Netnyahu and Putin making a deal behind closed doors and hey, the same is happening with the French Rafales. So it's not just from Russia that Egypt is STILL being denied the critically powerful and on-par weaponry with the latest and greatest out there because look at the Indians and their Rafales.
But we do know that we were on the waiting list for the Meteor and now, looking at India getting them before even receiving any of the aircraft themselves and now coming to the realization that Russia is also denying the EAF the better, and stronger and longer range and essentially, the more powerful BVR A2A missile, it all makes sense that we're basically back to ground zero again.
With a 400km ERBIS-E radar and wing-mounted AESA radar and all the best of the best avionics including wingtip jamming pods and then find out we're getting the lesser grade BVR missile!? You've got to be kidding me!
They say for a long time r37 is compatible with su-35 yet its integration started not long ago.
the jews have put pressure on the russians not sell them the best missiles, you can take that to the bank. russia bent the knee to them by the look of it. shame. most unfortunate. slippery enough the russians, just like all the players i guess.
GarryB wrote:
Well for a short while I thought... Egypt screwed the Soviet Union and got in to bed with Israel and the US and they could do it again so I hope they don't sell them all their best stuff.
GarryB wrote:But to be fair Egypt is buying new stuff... MiG-35s and Su-35s, and they should be allowed to get what they pay for... they might be buying old remaining stocks of RVV-AE as cheap long range ARH AAMs for cheap practise and experience to follow up with better missiles once their purchase of Su-35s has upset the apple cart and the US goes ballistic over it. Putin is many things but he respects a countrys right to defend itself... including Israel... but when Israel screws around with agreements and tries to use Russian aircraft as meat shields and it ends up killing some of Russias bestest and brightest then I think Putin is not always going to worry too much about what is in Israels bests interests.
GarryB wrote:If he is letting Egypt by MiG-35s and Su-35s I don't believe he will restrict access to long range AAMs, I rather suspect they might be buying cheap RVV-AEs till the R-77M is ready for export.
GarryB wrote:I don't know about the European weapons but with Russian weapons most of the time you get what you pay for but the reason people don't get the best is usually they don't want to pay for it.
GarryB wrote:For all we know the price for the RVV AE might be a clearance price while the R-77-1 might be double... the R-77M might be 20% more but with more than double the performance increase they might figure get the RVV AE now and then when the R-77M becomes ready... being a MiG-35 buyer they should be first on the list...
GarryB wrote:It would be short sighted buying a tank with all the best optics and sensors and fire control systems and the biggest gun and the best engine and the strongest armour and then buying training ammo for the gun, but your first priority when buying a new tank is to train your crews to master it first.
GarryB wrote:Equally with SPIRI... honestly we really don't have any solid details... for all we know the RVV AE might be for use with the Ka-52K helicopters with your new Mistrals...
GarryB wrote:The R-37M was planned from the start to be compatible with all front line Russian fighters... Su-35, MiG-35, Su-57 as well as the upgraded MiG-31 of course, but the latter was the only one they actually bothered fitting it to.
In terms of performance its main use is against enemy force multipliers like AWACS, JSTARS, inflight refuelling aircraft, Troop transports, high speed recon aircraft and of course strike/bomber aircraft like B-1B which are used for missile attacks.
GarryB wrote:If Israel was influencing Russian sales to Egypt then they wouldn't bother trying to block AAMs, it would make more sense to block Su-35s and MiG-35s.
GarryB wrote:AMRAAMs against MiG-35s and Su-35s with proper jamming equipment should mean close range dogfights with WVR AAMs and cannon fire... which would put the Russian planes at quite an advantage I would think...
GarryB wrote:
If Israel was influencing Russian sales to Egypt then they wouldn't bother trying to block AAMs, it would make more sense to block Su-35s and MiG-35s.
Though we’ll most likely never know, I’d suggest that you’re well wide of the mark here. They absolutely would’ve tried but failed because Russia needs the sales but absolutely caved with the missiles; it was essentially a x 2 win for Russia when you look at it from that perspective.
Russian systems in Syria have nothing to do with Syria but everything to do with protecting Russians. Why else is israel attacking Syria with ease, so your assumption here is incorrect also imo.
I don't know who that guy is who wrote that book, does he have credibility? His information is good? So we can take his word that we have the Meteor? Why is he the only one in the universe who knows this? lol. Just kidding with you ya basha but one has to ask these questions and question veracity of claims, no matter who it is making them.
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/armement-mais-qu-est-ce-qui-se-passe-entre-la-france-et-l-egypte-815119.htmlAccording to our information, the United States has lifted the blockade, which it imposed via ITAR regulations, on France on the export to Egypt of the Meteor air-to-air missile, which the army of the United States greatly likes
I know SIPRI mentioned all the 50 SCALPs were delivered, but I don't think the Talios targeting pod is for the Meteor. The Talios is for the AASM HAMMERs.
Israel took many lessons on YK war , from ATGMs to SAMs to ASMs.They are trying to have the upper hand on such systems but they don't have the capacity for a long war with Egypt .You remember the 14th of October 1973 and the battle of El Mansoura? I'm sure you do and better than me lol but that was when things really changed as far as fighting the Israelis in the air. Also accompanied by El Mansouri's MiG-21 and his partner against 6 F-4 Phantom II of the Israelis and they scored 2 Phantom kills for 0 EAF MiGs in an air battle over the Gulf of Suez I believe was on the 27th of October and Mansouri flew right into the merge head on and fired both his Atolls and shot down the lead Phantom and freaked the rest of the Israelis out where they engaged in an air battle for 13 minuted after that, scoring a 2nd hit.
Now you folks know why this crap is pissing me off and when I see the possibility that our Russian friends might not be giving us the better R-77, I start to wonder if even they're being influenced by these gaddam bastards! Sorry for the long post and venting, fellas.
"I'll take fighting the Egyptians any day instead of talking peace or offering Sinai back to them." El khawal ebn el metnaka da lol.
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ahmedfire wrote:
I hope it's true ya basha
latribune mentioned the Meteor issue has been solved , from April-2019 .
https://www..fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/armement-mais-qu-est-ce-qui-se-passe-entre-la-france-et-l-egypte-815119.htmlAccording to our information, the United States has lifted the blockade, which it imposed via ITAR regulations, on France on the export to Egypt of the Meteor air-to-air missile, which the army of the United States greatly likes
Ah come on, that's not fair. There's a lot of blame that can get thrown around all over the place at everyone involved during that time and after the war etc.
But I don't ever see a shift again because those were extenuating circumstances that involved making peace and let's be honest, the US had a lot more clout during those years and in that particular theater than the Soviet Union.
But now, with Sisi and looking at the current paradigm, these alliances won't be strictly in favor of one or the other, but rather a cumulative consortium of friendships and alliances. You need to look at other fields that are non-military and more economic in structure to really see how far the Egypt/Russia relations have come to, including the new nuclear reactor Russia is building and many other projects in Egypt. So circumstance are much different now, not to mention there were major differences back then that led to what happened.
If anything I've learned through my 50+ years of following this history, is that Russia -- during whichever time period -- would never support a potential or current adversary of Israel to the point where that support could be the cause of its defeat.
Meaning that even if they sell the MiG-35 and the Su-35, they still won't arm them to the point where they can actually take down Israel's F-35s or be capable of mounting an offensive attack into Israel that might be needed to reverse an Israeli offensive.
An attack on Israel is not only a means to launch an unprovoked attack, but especially a provoked one. This is one of the reasons why the SCALP was originally stopped by the US.
For example, everyone who has the F-16 has the AIM-120 except Egypt and Iraq. Even Jordan! Who is right next door to Israel has the AIM-120 for its F-16s.
First of all, there are too many gaddam names for these Russian missiles!!! Is the R-77M the same as the RVV-SD?
If the Swedes, Italians, Brits, Germans and Spaniards are operating the Meteor (and supposedly now India is as well), then why aren't Saudi Arabia and especially Egypt? Kinda ticks one off to tell you the truth. Something fishy is going on.
I'm confused with all these friggin numbers and names LOL! Can we just use one or the other? Either R-77-1 or RVV-SD? I'm assuming those two are the same?
That makes a lot of sense. That could very well be the case. But let me ask you, would 300 units or missiles be too much for that training purpose considering there are 46 aircraft to use those weapons? That's a lot of loot, too. So a lot of money being spent on practice rounds, so to speak and isn't there other, cheaper and equally as effective ways to train in BVR engagement without wasting 300 missiles?
If the R-37M shows up in the EAF, then I'll take everything back! Even at only 300km range, that is about as potent as any BVR missile out there and so it would change the dynamics completely.
They might've already tried that and failed.
Then Netanyahu compromises and says "ok, how about not selling them the long range BVR missile to still give us the edge?" Putin says "now that I can do." I don't know, I hope that's not the case but it's not out of the realm of possibilities.
Probably against most AFs out there, but against the Israelis with their HMCS and all their technological superiority in avionics and things of that sort, it would still be a hard nut to crack.
Russian systems in Syria have nothing to do with Syria but everything to do with protecting Russians. Why else is israel attacking Syria with ease, so your assumption here is incorrect also imo.
Though we’ll most likely never know, I’d suggest that you’re well wide of the mark here. They absolutely would’ve tried but failed because Russia needs the sales but absolutely caved with the missiles; it was essentially a x 2 win for Russia when you look at it from that perspective.
.Of course Russia is happy that EAF is turning it's compass to the Russian platforms ,Egypt is a big market .
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Mr. Ahmedfire, could you kindly fix that link, please? Currently not working maybe it's not fully copied or pasted. I'd really like to read it. Thank you, sir.
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Gomig-21 wrote:
Mr. Ahmedfire, could you kindly fix that link, please? Currently not working maybe it's not fully copied or pasted. I'd really like to read it. Thank you, sir.
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GarryB wrote:
No.
The original RVV-AE is the first R-77. They upgraded it and Russianised it and generally improved its performance in the R-77-1 which is the current standard Russian AF model right now... the export version is called RVV-SD. The R-77M and the R-77PD are the two extended range models.. the former with an enlarged and improved rocket motor and the latter using a combined rocket ramjet propulsion like Meteor... both supposed to have flight ranges of 200km+.
The R-77-1 or RVV-SD has a range of about 110km... the R-77 about 80km or so.
If that is the case, do we know if the RVV-SD is being exported or is it not ready yet? I believe you said earlier that it wasn't and that might be why India as well as Egypt ordered the RVV-AE until the SD is ready and then they will purchase that? Is this the correct line of thinking?
If so, are there any inclinations as to when the RVV-SD might be ready for export?
In the meantime, I sure as heck hope to see the R-27 in both its export forms (what are they, the long burn and the short burn?) come with these new EAF Su-35SE.
Russia has now the r-77M with a range of 200km and is integrating the r-37M on its su-35.
Egypt needs to buy 200 or so r37M for its su-35 and ask for r-77M possibility.
RVV-SD is offered for export but not all russian jets can carry it. Indian su-30MKI need an upgrade to use them.
GarryB wrote:Russian upgraded aircraft can use it.
The Indians were interested in fitting French and Israeli and Indian components in their aircraft rather more than upgrading the aircraft to take future Russian weapons.
Many Russian aircraft still carry R-27 which is flexible and not a bad missile... there are probably more than 30 different types and options with this weapon family... you could probably write a book.
The R-77M and R-74M and object 800 are optimised for internal weapon bays for aircraft like the new light twin engined MiG fighter and the Su-57...
If range was actually critical then the US would have modified the Phoenix to be able to be carried by the F-22...
Long range means bigger heavier missile which often struggle against manouverable targets.
GarryB wrote:
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-systems/air-to-air-missile/rvv-sd/
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/rvv-sd.html
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