Russia-Pakistan New Dawn

Russian President Vladimir Putin has turned down the invitation to visit Pakistan for inauguration of the North-South Pipeline Project with Moscow emphasising that there was not enough substance in this trip. This comes as the recent bonhomie between both sides has not lasted long despite Pakistan’s plans to buy armament, including aircraft from Russia, and signing of a number of bilateral agreements and setting up of the high-level consultative mechanism between Islamabad and Moscow Strategic Dialogue between their respective Foreign Ministers, Joint Working Group on counter-terrorism.

The high-level visits were being projected as demonstrating the new level of friendship and enhanced engagement between the two countries. The exchange of high-profile visits by leaders of the two nations that raised Pakistan’s hopes of becoming a close ally of Russia did not persist. The assumption that Moscow was actively developing ties with Islamabad, particularly in trade and counter-terrorism, seems to have belied the general expectations.

Over 100 Pakistani businessmen, who had visited Russia to participate in an exhibition, were detained earlier on March 26 by the Immigration Authorities in Moscow and subsequently deported back apparently due to visa issues. The Pakistani diplomats in Moscow had a very tough time in getting consular access to them. The cold shoulder being given by Russia to Pakistan is indicative of the underlying lack of trust between both sides, carried on from the days of the Cold War era.

..http://idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don http://idrw.org/russias-vladimir-putin-rejects-invitation-to-visit-pakistan/#more-93497 .

http://www.dawn.com/news/1285633


RAWALPINDI: A contingent of Russian ground forces arrived in Pakistan on Friday for the first ever joint Pak-Russian exercise kicking off Sept 24.


The two-week-long exercise is expected to continue until Oct 10, Director General Inter-Services Public Relations Asim Bajwa said.

The exercises with Russian ground forces come at a time when tensions between Pakistan and India are running high following an attack on the Uri military camp in India-held Kashmir.


Around 200 military personnel of both countries will participate in the drills, Radio Pakistan reported.

The exercise is being seen as a demonstration of closer defence ties between the Pakistan and Russia after they signed a military cooperation pact in 2014.

It comes after intense drills by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) earlier this week that officials said had been long-planned, including landing combat aircraft on the Islamabad-Lahore motorway.


The PAF on Thursday launched the Highmark Exercise, shutting down sections of the motorway leading out of the capital to land “several” combat aircraft for the first time in six years, a senior security source told AFP.

But Pakistani officials said Highmark is a routine exercise, with a senior security official telling AFP that preparations ─ including setting the dates it would take place ─ had begun around one year ago.


The drill is aimed an enhancing “operational preparedness”, the official said, and will continue for several weeks followed by months of evaluation.

Foreign Ministry Spokesman Nafees Zakariya said on Thursday that the moves were regular and routine.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/confusion-prevails-over-venue-of-russian-drill-with-pakistan/story-J2MXZAtBQUQrm64zN3SzYP.html

Confusion persisted on Saturday regarding the venue of the first Russia-Pakistan military exercise despite a statement from the Russian embassy in New Delhi that the drill would not be held in a “sensitive or problematic” area such as Gilgit-Baltistan.
Sources in Islamabad told Hindustan Times that there had been no change in plans for the drill to be held at the Pakistan Army’s High Altitude School at Rattu in Gilgit-Baltistan and a special forces training centre at Cherat in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province.

“The exercise is going ahead at Rattu. The Russian unit that has come is one that specializes in mountain warfare in terrain such as that found in Rattu,” a source said.

Adding to the confusion was a post on the drill on the Russian defence ministry’s website in the section “exercises”, which clearly said: “Friendship-2016, Russian-Pakistani tactic exercise, is held in the territory of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in at the bases of Rattu, the military mountain training school, and a training center of the special units in Cherat on September 24 – October 10.”

Sources said this post on the Russian defence ministry’s website had also been shared with journalists in Islamabad.

A post in the “news” section of the Russian defence ministry’s website announced that the Russian troops had arrived for the exercise but gave no details of the venue of the drill.


The influential Dawn newspaper too reported that the exercise would be held at Rattu in Gilgit-Baltistan and Cherat.

“The exercises will be held at Cherat – where the Special Services Group, the commando division of the Pakistan Army, is headquartered and where the Special Operations School is also located – and at the Army High Altitude School in Rattu, Astore district,” said the report on the paper’s back page.

“The war games gained added significance after India advised Russia against holding drills in Pakistan. Importantly, these are being held at a time when tensions between India and Pakistan have climaxed in the aftermath of the Uri terrorist attack . Indian media had been claiming that Moscow agreed to call off the exercises,” the report added.

After India repeatedly expressed its concerns about the plans to hold the drill in Gilgit-Baltistan, which was part of the erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir state and is claimed by India, the Russian embassy in New Delhi issued a statement late on Friday night that said the drill would not be held in a “sensitive or problematic” area.
“Contrary to some reports appearing in a section of the press, the Russia-Pakistan antiterror exercise is not being held and will not be held in any point of so-called ‘Azad Kashmir’ or in any other sensitive or problematic areas like Gilgit and Baltistan,” the statement said.

“The only venue of the exercise is Cherat. All reports alleging the drills taking place at the High Altitude Military School in Rattu are erroneous and mischievous,” it added.

Significantly, the Russian defence ministry’s statement described Rattu as part of “the territory of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan”.
About 70 soldiers from a mountain motorised rifle brigade of Russia’s Southern Military Division are taking part in the exercise. The drill is aimed at improving cooperation while “performing assigned tasks in mountains, including ones aimed at eliminating illegal armed groups”, the Russian ministry said.

Who would expect this during 80s...

Speaking to RIA Novosti, Vyacheslav Davidenko, an official representative of Rosoboronexport – Russia’s state-owned arms export agency – said that there are no ongoing arms negotiations, including the Su-35, taking place with Pakistan.

Mr Davidenko also added that Pakistan had been invited by the Russian Ministry of Defence to attend and participate in Army 2016, which had taken place from 6-11 September.

Notes, Comments & Analysis:

While Rosoboronexport’s statement establishes that there are no negotiations taking place with Pakistan of the sale of Su-35s, it does not necessarily negate earlier statements made by Major General Naveed Ahmed, the Director General of Defence Purchases (DGDP).

During the Army 2016 exhibition, Maj. Gen Ahmed had told RIA Novosti that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was interested in the Sukhoi Su-35, but the decision (to start negotiations in earnest) was with Moscow. Furthermore, the DGDP also stated that there are no big-ticket acquisitions from Russia in the pipeline at this time, though efforts were underway to buy a batch of RD-93 turbofan engines for the JF-17.

At least on Quwa, the crux of the issue had been the need to confirm whether the PAF itself is (or at least was) interested in the Su-35. The PAF has yet to comment on the subject. The DGDP’s statement during Army 2016 suggests that while there may be interest in the Su-35, it would be premature – especially with Rosoboronexport’s statement – to suggest that actual talks are underway. Furthermore, although Rosoboronexport confirmed that there are no talks taking place, it is not the principal decision maker on this issue; its role is to manage the acquisition process once it has been approved by the Kremlin.

That said, the fact that Pakistan had been invited by the Russian Ministry of Defence to attend Army 2016 clearly sits well with an earlier idea suggested on Quwa that Russia, at least in broad terms, is comfortable with the notion of selling arms to Pakistan. However, Moscow will show discretion when it comes to the question of releasing certain armaments to Pakistan, and the Su-35 would certainly be among those areas that will be gauged very carefully (in light of Moscow’s dealings with New Delhi).

http://quwa.org/2016/09/18/russia-no-su-35-negotiations-pakistan/

Russian-Pakistani military drills start in northwestern Pakistan

Joint drills are held at the special services training range the altitude of 1,400 meters above the sea level

ROSTOV-ON-DON, October 22. /TASS/. Joint Russian-Pakistani "Friendship 2018" military drills have started near the village of Cherat in Pakistan's Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province (around 100 kilometers from the capital of Islamabad), the press service of Russia's Southern Military District said on Tuesday.

Joint drills are held at the special services training range the altitude of 1,400 meters above the sea level. Around 200 servicemen, including 70 Russian mountain shooters, are participating in the drills. The military exercise is held in accordance with the plan on international military cooperation and will finish on November 4. The sides are practicing combat operations in the mountains.

"The aim of the military exercise is to exchange professional experiences and strengthen Russian-Pakistani military cooperation," the press service quoted deputy chief of staff of Pakistan's Ground Forces Gen. Lt. Syed Adnan as saying at the opening ceremony. The military official said that servicemen from Russia's Karachay-Cherkessia will work together with Pakistani special services units who have a 10-year experience in the fight against terrorism within the country.

From the Russian side, participants in the military drills were welcomed by commander of the mountain brigade from Karachay-Cherkessia Col. Oleg Senkov and military attache from the Russian Embassy in Pakistan.

The "Friendship" drills have been held since 2016. In 2017, over 200 servicemen took part in the military exercise held in the North Caucasus at the altitude of 2,300 meters above the sea level.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/1027283

Russia offers Pakistan LNG supplies and assistance in building a gas pipeline
Yesterday, 14: 46
49

Foreign Minister pays a visit to Pakistan. This visit is part of Sergey Lavrov's major Asian tour. The Russian Foreign Minister and his Pakistani counterpart Shah Qureshi discussed a wide range of issues, including energy cooperation.


During the meeting, the topic of cooperation between the Russian Federation and Pakistan was raised in terms of the supply of Russian energy resources to this Asian country with a population of about 210 million people. Pakistan is the fifth most populous country in the world. This is a huge market, which requires more energy from year to year for the production and domestic needs.

At the meeting of the foreign ministers of Russia and Pakistan, the possible construction of a large North-South gas pipeline, which in modern plans is called the Pakistani Stream, was discussed. According to the project, the length of the gas pipeline will be slightly more than 1 km, and the main purpose is to connect large terminals of liquefied natural gas in the largest cities of the country - Lahore and Karachi. It is noteworthy that the corresponding intergovernmental agreement was signed back in 2015. The parties are now reportedly close to implementing it.

It is noted that the annual throughput of such a pipeline can be up to 12,5 billion cubic meters of gas.

At the same time, it is important that Russia offers Islamabad the supply of LNG from its fields.

Sergey Lavrov noted that Pakistan has a great interest in the highly competitive energy projects proposed by Russia.

Both states hope to expand trade ties. As it turned out, last year was a record for Russian-Pakistani trade - $ 0,79 billion. Moreover, the growth in comparison with 2019 amounted to 45 percent at once. This growth was ensured by supplies of Russian wheat totaling about $ 200 million. As noted by the Russian and Pakistani representatives, this indicates a high potential for its further growth, since so far in absolute terms the indicators are more than modest - taking into account the scale of the economies of the two countries.

During the meeting, security issues were also discussed. The topic of joint fight against terrorism and sea piracy was discussed. Russian and Pakistani military personnel will take part in the joint naval exercises "Arabian Monsoon".

https://en.topwar.ru/181740-rossija-predlozhila-pakistanu-postavki-spg-i-pomosch-v-sozdanii-gazoprovoda.html

A massive waste of time cultivating time with that Islamist hellhole and curator of the Taliban. Because with such a friend who needs enemies. As the US found out.

Not to mention it's not doing any favours for ties with India. Which are in this universe along with the next - far more important.

flamming_python wrote:A massive waste of time cultivating time with that Islamist hellhole and curator of the Taliban. Because with such a friend who needs enemies. As the US found out.

Not to mention it's not doing any favours for ties with India. Which are in this universe along with the next - far more important.

Pakistan is not necessarily a friend of Russia but is neither an enemy. Ergo, it's important that Russia develops ties with Pakistan. Pakistan is a major importer of weapons and Russian defense primes can benefit from that.

India is a dirt poor country that is in no position to dictate terms to Russia. However, with a billion plus population and little or no natural resources it's certainly a long term threat to Russia. If Pakistan collapses, India might extend its border up to Afghanistan and eventually into Central Asia and Russia. This will open the flood gates for the influx of millions of Indians into Russia.

Right now Pakistan acts as a buffer between India and Russia.

The best case scenario for both Russia and West is that India disintegrates into several smaller states. It's a corrupt country with several fault lines. Those fault lines should be exploited by Russia and West to break India up into a number of smaller nations.

Until that happens, Russia should maintain friendly ties with Pakistan.

Well Pakistan is not super-rich either.
Well whatever you are accusing of India of doing has already been tried by Taliban, with blessings of none other than Pakistan itself, and even Chinese have realised that spending huge money on them is not worth the cost (CPEC project is practically frozen)

A massive waste of time cultivating time with that Islamist hellhole and curator of the Taliban. Because with such a friend who needs enemies. As the US found out.

Selling them stuff and buying things they have that you want is nothing to do with friendship... the Taleban was not created to invade Russia, it was created to create order and peace in Afghanistan... when the Taleban were in charge Afghanistan was a relatively stable neighbour and the transport of drugs to Russia almost stopped.

If anything the Taleban have fought with the US and west more than they have fought with Russia, but then most of the Taleban were Muj in the 1980s so that point is a bit moot.

The Americans moved to Afghanistan after being kicked out of Iran... the Soviets invaded to kick them out... essentially what the Taleban are doing now is what the Soviets were trying to do in the 1980s, though the Soviets did a lot to try to nation build too like build schools and hospitals and roads, while the Taleban just made lots of rules.

The Americans have don't less to help the Afghan people than the Taleban do... they just want access to Afghanistan because those mountains are full of rare earth minerals...

Not to mention it's not doing any favours for ties with India.

If Russia refuses trade to keep in Indias good books you are going to come off like a needy bitch... India has always bought from multi sources, but 70% of their stuff is Russian or Soviet because it is good stuff that works and does what it says on the tin... not to mention it is cheaper than western stuff even now by a good margin.

India has a billion people, so the majority will be poor... hell the majority of people in the west are actually poor these days with more and more money being moved to the hands of fewer and fewer people. Poor people tend to pay full price for things, while the rich and powerful expect discounts and bonuses and special treatment.

For goodness sake Russia sells Titanium and rocket engines and flights on rockets to the ISS to the US... their worst and most insidious enemy currently.... why would they not sell to just anyone?

If Pakistan collapses, India might extend its border up to Afghanistan and eventually into Central Asia and Russia.

If Pakistan collapses then the chaos of Afghanistan will move closer to India... Pakistan is a problem India is not equipped to fix... just like Russia can't fix Ukraine. They have decided they are different, and there is no point... in fact no interest in taking the time and effort and money to change that.

This will open the flood gates for the influx of millions of Indians into Russia.

So what? Millions of Indians have made the US home and it hasn't collapsed...

Right now Pakistan acts as a buffer between India and Russia.

Not really, there are a few countries between Russia and India...

Pakistan represents a trade partner, and India is an established trade partner... both have potential for increased trade with Russia... don't go looking for enemies because you always find them.... but you always find them because in looking you actually create them... the Russians under Putin wanted good relations with the west, but a partnership of equals... not the abuse that was happening under Yeltsin... it was the west that rejected that... it has taken Putin 20 years to accept that... because potentially it would have been a good deal, but instead there is a new cold war. But Putin wont waste time on an arms race, they are a long way through a reform of their military and are constantly reforming their economy to deal with sanctions and cutting relations with the west and the wests proxies...

Turkey and Pakistan show that at the end of the day even the most loyal stooge of the west gets in Americas black book and can be a potential trade partner for Russia.

Russia is not interested in a cold war and will have good relations with any country... but that country has to want them too... loyal poodles like France muddy the waters by cancelling deals, and Germany is not sending clear messages to the US about NSII, but that is OK... in the end Russia makes the best of a bad situation. Instead of getting to make two more Mistral class ships for Russia I don't think Egypt will want more... they might look at Russias new 40K ton helicopter ships when they hit the water and buy two more of those. With Germany, they can buy cheap piped gas or they can pay several times more for shipped natural gas... wont be a real problem for Russia.

The best case scenario for both Russia and West is that India disintegrates into several smaller states. It's a corrupt country with several fault lines. Those fault lines should be exploited by Russia and West to break India up into a number of smaller nations.

Yeah, that was the plan for Russia too. Not really going to happen though is it?

India is either going to swing to the west or swing to an independent state where it makes its own decisions and chooses its own future.

I see what you mean about disintegrating... Syria, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, NK/Armenia... they were all in the process of swinging west... and they broke... broken by the west of course... it is a pattern... but it wont work in Russia and I don't think it would work in Belarus or India either... wouldn't surprise me if the next target was Taiwan... getting them to declare independence from China to get some blood flowing so they can redraw lines and damage rivals... it worked for WWI... lines changed all over the place after that, but then that caused WWII and ultimately led to the Cold War too.... some love to play with fire.

Until that happens, Russia should maintain friendly ties with Pakistan.

I would expect Russia will maintain friendly ties with any country wishing to reciprocate.

Pakistan is the shithole most directly responsible in fostering and supporting the mujahideen - the subhumans who wanted to bring Afghanistan back to medieval sharia bullshit and have fought and killed Russians for it. Only a Paki would advocate being friends with Pakistan instead of sanctioning and bombing that hellhole to kingdom come.

It is not Russia in Afghanistan as an invader, there is no current reason for hostility with Pakistan... in fact trading with them could lead to Russian weapons being used against the US and her coalition of the drones, which is not great, but Russia makes some money and Pakistan gets some decent weapons.

The US is happy to supply the Ukraine and terrorists in Syria and elsewhere, many of which are pointed at Russians.

Personally I think if the various religions tone down the anger rhetoric there should be room for different views to coexist... so far it probably isn't possible, but it is done in places like Iran, and formerly in Syria under government rule before the radical terrorists arrived... it is what the west preaches... seems strange that on most battlefields they are on the opposite side of it so often like supporting nazis in the Ukraine and terrorists in Libya and Syria and Afghanistan when the Soviets were there.

The reality is that they don't care about values or ethics and cherry pick information to suit their agenda at the time... which makes them easy to ignore.

Due to its geographic position Pakistan holds an important position in the new Eurasian Alliance that has been put into overdrive now that Bumbling Biden has released the dogs of war all around the globe



The Pak-Chinese alliance has been lauded by the Chinese with the 'deeper than oceans, higher than mountains' catchphrase. Or something similar than that. Pakistan (together with Myanmar) is their shortcut to the Middle East, thereby forgoing dangerous bottlenecks (where the Chinese have not yet been able to assert themselves) like the Strait of Malacca and the Bay of Bengal.

As for Russia, it will be beneficial to ride the waves the Chinese created for its own benefits. A bilateral agreement with Pakistan might help in this, as Pakistan for sure will at one point kick out the yanks and become, like so many other states, firmly attached to the ever rising Chinese economy.

An alliance, or friendship with Pakistan will also be beneficial in countering the Indians who for some reason are Sorosite lapdogs begging for a bone at Uncle Sam's place

None of this, however, should imply that Pakis should now be able to get visa free travel to Russia or any of that nonsense. The Chinese for one try to pander the third world nations by allowing a rather large number of their students to study at Chinese universities.

Those Paki guys are greasy to the max. Would not recommend.

elconquistador wrote:Due to its geographic position Pakistan holds an important position in the new Eurasian Alliance that has been put into overdrive now that Bumbling Biden has released the dogs of war all around the globe



The Pak-Chinese alliance has been lauded by the Chinese with the 'deeper than oceans, higher than mountains' catchphrase. Or something similar than that. Pakistan (together with Myanmar) is their shortcut to the Middle East, thereby forgoing dangerous bottlenecks (where the Chinese have not yet been able to assert themselves) like the Strait of Malacca and the Bay of Bengal.

As for Russia, it will be beneficial to ride the waves the Chinese created for its own benefits. A bilateral agreement with Pakistan might help in this, as Pakistan for sure will at one point kick out the yanks and become, like so many other states, firmly attached to the ever rising Chinese economy.

An alliance, or friendship with Pakistan will also be beneficial in countering the Indians who for some reason are Sorosite lapdogs begging for a bone at Uncle Sam's place

None of this, however, should imply that Pakis should now be able to get visa free travel to Russia or any of that nonsense. The Chinese for one try to pander the third world nations by allowing a rather large number of their students to study at Chinese universities.

Those Paki guys are greasy to the max. Would not recommend.

Geopolitics of the world is not binary. Pakistanis are basically prostitutes for money..
They will be loyal as long as you pay them, which Russians may not want to spend it. Chinese themselves can turn themselves for worse with probably change in the leadership

UZB-76 wrote:...even Chinese have realised that spending huge money on them is not worth the cost (CPEC project is practically frozen)

You have been looking at too much Western propaganda. Western reporters look at the work done in the port at Gwadar and because they stopped after the initial stage of the port plan was complete they think the whole of CPEC is stopped. The Chinese have already built multiple coal power plants in Pakistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahiwal_Coal_Power_Project
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Port_Qasim_Power_Project
https://www.engroenergy.com/engro-powergen-thar-limited/

This is supposed to mitigate Pakistan's heavy usage of imported oil from the Middle East to generate electricity.

Natural gas power plants which use Pakistan's natural gas resource.
https://www.nppmcl.com/project/haveli-power-plant/

They are building nuclear and hydro power plants there but those take many years to build so of course they aren't all complete yet.
https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Grid-connection-for-Pakistani-Hualong-One-unit
Above a 1100 MWe nuclear reactor that was grid connected last month (construction 2015-2021). But of course CPEC is frozen.

Roads have been built. Rail is being built. The next stage of Gwadar port expansion is supposed to happen when they build an industrial park there. But do you think an industrial park can operate with limited electric power and limited rail transportation into Pakistan itself? That is why the expansion of the port facilities themselves has been paused after the initial capability was reached. The Chinese aren't stupid.

Problem is not just about being frozen projects.
Some of them are already going behind schedule and Chinese are not to provideloans for Pakistanis at a favourable concessions, also there is a problem of terrorism in Balochistan and North Western Region of Pakistan, of course Chinese are not gonna admit this.

UZB-76 wrote:...Some of them are already going behind schedule and Chinese are not to provideloans for Pakistanis at a favourable concessions, also there is a problem of terrorism in Balochistan and North Western Region of Pakistan, of course Chinese are not gonna admit this.

I would not be surprised if some projects were behind schedule, that's just par for the course, but for example that nuclear power plant was built in 6 years. For your info Leningrad II - 1 - Russia for example took 10 years to build. The EPR at Olkiluoto - Finland is 16 years and counting. So 6 years is relatively fast for a nuclear power plant. From what I have been seeing most projects seem to be doing decent time. As for the loans, the rates the Chinese are charging are more competitive than any alternatives. What do you think would be the rate charged by anyone else to Pakistan for them to get a loan? With regards to terrorism, yes, that is a problem. But it hasn't stopped the project to any noticeable degree.

lancelot wrote:

With regards to terrorism, yes, that is a problem. But it hasn't stopped the project to any noticeable degree.

Yes, enough to basically ask India for peace so that they can deal with the terrorists.

Just because they shoot (or rather shake down) the Americans from time to time doesn't mean they are worth allying, far from it.

Not talking about an alliance... talking about trade.

The best solution to reduce criminal activity is to give young men something legal and safe and productive to do during the day leaving them too tired at night to get up to bad shit.

An alliance, or friendship with Pakistan will also be beneficial in countering the Indians who for some reason are Sorosite lapdogs begging for a bone at Uncle Sam's place

They can be friend or enemy... they were enemy because of their alliance with the US and Soviet troops in Afghanistan... both of which are over.

Trade and civil relations would benefit both countries... they don't have to become best buddies.

Pakistanis are basically prostitutes for money..

Describes everyone on the planet who is not one of the 1%.

If I offered you 1 million US dollars... what would you refuse to do?

How about 10 million...

The reality is that right now the US is the super power, but it is breaking itself to keep that facade going... the future multipolar world wont be about the US and her lackies (the west) being her lynch mob bully boys.

The US will remain a power, but the EU might find the balls to have its own voice, China, Russia, India, could each have their own voice without needing permission.

Right now you are with the west or you struggle, but China and Russia and indeed the EU and India are getting to the point where their economic power and needs could mean they could replace a relationship with the US or the west.

Obviously the US wont tolerate sharing now, but when she is weaker she wont have so much of a choice... countries will be able to trade with other countries on a much less exclusive way like they do now.

Will be good for all smaller countries... some might group together to increase their power in terms of military and economic and political power... central and south america, africa, middle east asia etc etc.

GarryB wrote:

A massive waste of time cultivating time with that Islamist hellhole and curator of the Taliban. Because with such a friend who needs enemies. As the US found out.

Selling them stuff and buying things they have that you want is nothing to do with friendship... the Taleban was not created to invade Russia, it was created to create order and peace in Afghanistan... when the Taleban were in charge Afghanistan was a relatively stable neighbour and the transport of drugs to Russia almost stopped.

If anything the Taleban have fought with the US and west more than they have fought with Russia, but then most of the Taleban were Muj in the 1980s so that point is a bit moot.

They also hanged the pro-Soviet leader of Afghanistan off a lamp-pole
Wrecked all the social progress the country made in the cities thanks to the pro-Soviet government
Sent fighters to the Islamist opposition in Tajikistan's civil war and engaged in battles with Russian border guards on the Tajik-Afghan border
Recognized the independence of Chechnya and later provided training for Chechen Islamists
Held 7 Russian airmen hostage for over a year in Kandahar (granted they were transporting weapons to their enemies)

After the US invaded the Taliban suddenly had other problems

The Americans moved to Afghanistan after being kicked out of Iran... the Soviets invaded to kick them out... essentially what the Taleban are doing now is what the Soviets were trying to do in the 1980s, though the Soviets did a lot to try to nation build too like build schools and hospitals and roads, while the Taleban just made lots of rules.

The Taliban splash acid in the faces of women not wearing a veil. I don't really care about what else they do quite frankly, they're not the kind of company I would associate with, and I'm not typically one to overly-moralize. But I guess with Russian policy right now focused on creating a Sharia state in Chechnya within Russia's own borders, we're hardly ones to talk anymore.

The Americans have don't less to help the Afghan people than the Taleban do... they just want access to Afghanistan because those mountains are full of rare earth minerals...

Could frankly care less what the American intentions are. What matters is that both the US and Taliban are busy with each other in Afghanistan and neither have the free time to try and expand their presence from there. About how this will all end and what comes after, well it could be better, it could be worse, no way of knowing.

If Russia refuses trade to keep in Indias good books you are going to come off like a needy bitch... India has always bought from multi sources, but 70% of their stuff is Russian or Soviet because it is good stuff that works and does what it says on the tin... not to mention it is cheaper than western stuff even now by a good margin.

It's not about refusing trade.
It's about respecting India's concerns. They also happen to be the same concerns we have. And India has not engaged in any anti-Russian policies ever, so why would we want to buddy up and start creating strategic partnerships with their enemies? I value India's friendship and indeed its own, much larger market compared to Pakistan's - much more than that.

Having said that if Russia can turn a profit on a pipeline deal with Pakistan I'm in no way against that; which is what they're discussing now. Every nation has a right to develop.

But some sort of broadening of military ties and political co-operation in the region - no thanks.

For goodness sake Russia sells Titanium and rocket engines and flights on rockets to the ISS to the US... their worst and most insidious enemy currently.... why would they not sell to just anyone?

We sell them to the US because no-one else is in the market for them anyway. American orders have been fulfilling a key niche.

Selling anything to anyone sounds good. But it doesn't work that well in practice, eventually everything comes down to politics.[/quote]
[/quote]

GarryB wrote:

Just because they shoot (or rather shake down) the Americans from time to time doesn't mean they are worth allying, far from it.

Not talking about an alliance... talking about trade.

The best solution to reduce criminal activity is to give young men something legal and safe and productive to do during the day leaving them too tired at night to get up to bad shit.

An alliance, or friendship with Pakistan will also be beneficial in countering the Indians who for some reason are Sorosite lapdogs begging for a bone at Uncle Sam's place

They can be friend or enemy... they were enemy because of their alliance with the US and Soviet troops in Afghanistan... both of which are over.

Trade and civil relations would benefit both countries... they don't have to become best buddies.

Pakistanis are basically prostitutes for money..

Describes everyone on the planet who is not one of the 1%.

If I offered you 1 million US dollars... what would you refuse to do?

How about 10 million...

The reality is that right now the US is the super power, but it is breaking itself to keep that facade going... the future multipolar world wont be about the US and her lackies (the west) being her lynch mob bully boys.

The US will remain a power, but the EU might find the balls to have its own voice, China, Russia, India, could each have their own voice without needing permission.

Right now you are with the west or you struggle, but China and Russia and indeed the EU and India are getting to the point where their economic power and needs could mean they could replace a relationship with the US or the west.

Obviously the US wont tolerate sharing now, but when she is weaker she wont have so much of a choice... countries will be able to trade with other countries on a much less exclusive way like they do now.

Will be good for all smaller countries... some might group together to increase their power in terms of military and economic and political power... central and south america, africa, middle east asia etc etc.

If the job is dirty enough, even paying me 200 million dollars won't do.
I see you are an idealist. Fact is that Pakistan is a plague you wish to avoid, nobody in the neighborhood likes them. Pakistan will work for you as long as you pay them in form of aid, grants and non repayable loans..
Is Russia ready to pay the price?

After the US invaded the Taliban suddenly had other problems

It was the Russians that got the Taleban and US talking... the Taleban trusted and respected the Russians... the Americans have dropped them in the shit again... no surprises there.

It's about respecting India's concerns. They also happen to be the same concerns we have. And India has not engaged in any anti-Russian policies ever, so why would we want to buddy up and start creating strategic partnerships with their enemies? I value India's friendship and indeed its own, much larger market compared to Pakistan's - much more than that.

I fully agree, but India is getting into bed with the US and the US doesn't like threesomes... it will demand India stop seeing Russia... they already are trying with the S-400 thing.

No point in rejecting Pakistan only to find India has turned elsewhere.

But some sort of broadening of military ties and political co-operation in the region - no thanks.

Coalitions of the stupid let by one stupid country who sees itself as above everything else is Americas game, I am talking economics... perhaps economic development and growth will lead to better education and a change in culture... Christians used to do a lot of nasty things too... many still do.

We sell them to the US because no-one else is in the market for them anyway. American orders have been fulfilling a key niche.

The reasons are not important... you sell to your biggest most dangerous to you enemy and rival, why not sell to pipsqueak little enemies and rivals?

It is not charity... it is about mutual benefit.

If they use it against you, like Slovakia trying to sabotage SPUTNIK V then of course rethink your ties... can you do the same job and make the same money with a country not ready to stab you in the back...

Selling anything to anyone sounds good. But it doesn't work that well in practice, eventually everything comes down to politics.

It shouldn't.

If the job is dirty enough, even paying me 200 million dollars won't do.
I see you are an idealist.

Sounds like you are the idealist...

Fact is that Pakistan is a plague you wish to avoid, nobody in the neighborhood likes them.

The fact is that Russia has already sold products to Pakistan and is building a gas pipeline through the country ... they even sold them Mil helicopters and light armoured vehicles AFAIK.

Pakistan will work for you as long as you pay them in form of aid, grants and non repayable loans..
Is Russia ready to pay the price?

I am taking about trade... not hiring mercenaries.

GarryB wrote:




I fully agree, but India is getting into bed with the US and the US doesn't like threesomes... it will demand India stop seeing Russia... they already are trying with the S-400 thing.

We rejected all the US demands regarding the same.
We did some mistakes, but we are not that fools to fall for them.

No point in rejecting Pakistan only to find India has turned elsewhere.

No point in making friends with Pakistan to only make enemies with India and find pakis making new schemes to lobby for more money, there is a reason why USA dumped them in first place.

Sounds like you are the idealist...

What is the use of that 200 million dollars if that dirty job leads to my death or my invalidation. I am more realistic than what you think.

The fact is that Russia has already sold products to Pakistan and is building a gas pipeline through the country ... they even sold them Mil helicopters and light armoured vehicles AFAIK.

Russia would have got more money from single deal with India.

I am taking about trade... not hiring mercenaries.

Fair point, that depends on the politics in the end.

GarryB wrote:The fact is that Russia has already sold products to Pakistan and is building a gas pipeline through the country ... they even sold them Mil helicopters and light armoured vehicles AFAIK.

The engines in the JF-17 are Russian. RD-93. With 150 fighters built considering engines and spares that is not insignificant.