Indian Su-30MKI: News

medo wrote:I doubt Su-30MKI could use Irbis or AESA radar from PAK-FA as they are too powerful with 20kW peak power, Su-35 and PAK-FA have more powerful engines to support them with energy. I think they will produce something based on Bars radar with replacing PESA antenna with AESA antenna. Maybe they will modernize processors in Bars to receive better capabilities like modernizing Zaslon to Zaslon-AM radar, which become more capable with processor modernization and antenna is the same. I also wonder how big is the difference in capabilities between export Bars-M radar and domestic Bars-R radar in Su-30SM as it have domestic processors.

20 kw radar? That would burn through any current in the radar. The peak is around 4 kw.

Werewolf wrote:

medo wrote:I doubt Su-30MKI could use Irbis or AESA radar from PAK-FA as they are too powerful with 20kW peak power, Su-35 and PAK-FA have more powerful engines to support them with energy. I think they will produce something based on Bars radar with replacing PESA antenna with AESA antenna. Maybe they will modernize processors in Bars to receive better capabilities like modernizing Zaslon to Zaslon-AM radar, which become more capable with processor modernization and antenna is the same. I also wonder how big is the difference in capabilities between export Bars-M radar and domestic Bars-R radar in Su-30SM as it have domestic processors.

20 kw radar? That would burn through any current in the radar. The peak is around 4 kw.

Irbis have 20 kW peak power, that is why it could detect 3 m2 target at 400 km.

The Irbis-E is a direct evolution of the BARS design, but significantly more powerful. While the hybrid phased array antenna is retained, the noise figure is slightly worse at 3.5 dB, but the receiver has four rather than three discrete channels. The biggest change is in the EGSP-27 transmitter, where the single 7-kilowatt peak power rated Chelnok TWT is replaced with a pair of 10-kilowatt peak power rated Chelnok tubes, ganged to provide a total peak power rating of 20 kilowatts.

I find this claim from Wikipedia quite interesting. While Wikipedia claim for Bars-M radar to have 4 to 5 kW peak power, this claim at Irbis radar show, that Bars radar have 7 kW peak power, while Irbis have two 10 kW tubes giving full peak power 20 kW. Could be, that domestic Bars-R have 7 kW peak power, while export Bars-M have lowered to 4 to 5 kW. With better processor and computers Su-30SM have far more capable radar than Su-30MKI as I think Su-30SM also have more powerful engines than export one to support it. There is a good question, how powerful engines will upgraded Indian Su-30MKI have and how powerful radar they could support.

Couldy you provide a link to that, because those 20 kW sounds like it is powered by a nuclear reactor and the radar itself should be fried within a second...

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html#mozTocId533477

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irbis-E

http://warfare.be/db/catid/334/linkid/2568/

http://kret.com/en/product/8/

There are also articles in take off magazines, but I don't know, how to put pdf format here. In Take off magazine producer also confirm, that Bars-R is improved version of Bars-M radar and have higher caracteristics comparing to export radar. Most probably use full 7 kW peak power comparing to export, which is most probably limited to 4 or 5 kW and better processors.

medo wrote:http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html#mozTocId533477

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irbis-E

http://warfare.be/db/catid/334/linkid/2568/

http://kret.com/en/product/8/

There are also articles in take off magazines, but I don't know, how to put pdf format here. In Take off magazine producer also confirm, that Bars-R is improved version of Bars-M radar and have higher caracteristics comparing to export radar. Most probably use full 7 kW peak power comparing to export, which is most probably limited to 4 or 5 kW and better processors.

Thanks, that is crazy 20kW yes that explains the Irbis performance.

20KW is really only the output of a small diesel generator; weighing no more than about 200kg. Granted it's enough power to supply a couple houses or so.

flamming_python wrote:20KW is really only the output of a small diesel generator; weighing no more than about 200kg. Granted it's enough power to supply a couple houses or so.

Output of a generator is always high, the thingy here is the input a very delecate electronic piece gets that most radars only have 3-6 kW and some higher peaks is showing the big difference of what it can handle. For instance some jammers like the Apache jammers have an output of beneath 0.8-1 kW while trying to jam OSA,Tunguska, OKA, Tor etc. pp. In ECM, ECCM and Radar obersvation power you have to supply your electronics is a very important factor.

Four Su-30, plus support C-5, C-130 and Il-78 tanker are now in the UK for a few weeks for exercises with the RAF.

http://theaviationist.com/2015/07/22/indian-flankers-deployed-to-uk/

from EX. Indradanush 2015

Yeah !!

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336?pfrom=home-lateststories

NEW DELHI:  In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi 30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

In an exclusive interview, Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises, told NDTV that the performance of his pilots was "exceptional." According to Group Captain Srivastav, who happens to be the IAF's most experienced Su-30 pilot, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."

A Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jet of the Indian Air Force

higurashihougi wrote:Yeah !!

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336

Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises

In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

It happened yesterday. Even India gave tough competn to.murikans F-15s in 2008 Exercise .

Well some posts to this news on KP forum are interesting(or sour)...
Some British members cannot take such a result...

medo wrote:Su-30SM is more capable than export Su-30MKI/MKM in trust to weight ratio and in radar capabilities.

Export version like the Su 30MKI do not have internal MAWS & internal jammer either.

Austin wrote:In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

Naturally. In a BVR fight the Su 30MKI will not last for too long in the absence of internal MAWS & internal jammer. I suspect the Indians have realized that as well.

http://armingindia.com/Pakistans-New-F-16s-Can-Beat-Indias-Su-30s-Rafales-Are-The-Counter=01-08-15.htm

RTN wrote:Naturally. In a BVR fight the Su 30MKI will not last for too long in the absence of internal MAWS & internal jammer. I suspect the Indians have realized that as well.

http://armingindia.com/Pakistans-New-F-16s-Can-Beat-Indias-Su-30s-Rafales-Are-The-Counter=01-08-15.htm

Please explain.

As far as I know Su-30's ECM is more powerful and effective than any kind of Western counterparts.

And the article's claimed about F-16 can defeat Su-30 is totally bullshit.

higurashihougi wrote:

RTN wrote:Naturally. In a BVR fight the Su 30MKI will not last for too long in the absence of internal MAWS & internal jammer. I suspect the Indians have realized that as well.

http://armingindia.com/Pakistans-New-F-16s-Can-Beat-Indias-Su-30s-Rafales-Are-The-Counter=01-08-15.htm

Please explain.

As far as I know Su-30's ECM is more powerful and effective than any kind of Western counterparts.

And the article's claimed about F-16 can defeat Su-30 is totally bullshit.

Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have Russian self protection equipment (ESM). Internally Indian Su-30MKI have only Indian made RWR sensors Tarang, for the rest, they are dependent on Israeli ELTA EL/M-8222 self protection jammer pod. From the picture it is quite clearly seen, that Indian Su-30MKI have empty tail fins as well as empty wing leading edge and in front of canards, except those RWR sensors in the front wing leading edge and on the tail sting.



On the other hand Russian Su-30SM have standard L-150 Pastel RWRs on the wing leading edge and on the tail fins, where are also other sensors. It also have additional sensors on the wing leading edge and in front of canards and in tail sting in those white panels, so it have either internal jammers, either radar type MAWS or both. Considering, that Su-30SM will use wing tip jammer pods, like other Flankers and Su-34, so there is good possibility, that in those white panels are MAWS sensors.

higurashihougi wrote:Please explain.

As far as I know Su-30's ECM is more powerful and effective than any kind of Western counterparts.

And the article's claimed about F-16 can defeat Su-30 is totally bullshit.

Without a MAWS the pilot of a Su 30MKI will not be able to get missile speed, distance, relative altitude and time to intercept information.

The pilot of a Su 30 SM on the other hand would use this information from the MAWS to place the weapon "on the beam" (directly to his left or right) which forces the missile to use up its energy turning to a constantly changing intercept point. Then, as the missile closes in, the pilot would execute a max-G turn in the direction of the missile, forcing it to turn even tighter to intercept, hopefully tighter than the missile is able to turn thus falling behind the aircraft.

Austin wrote:

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336?pfrom=home-lateststories

NEW DELHI:  In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi 30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.

In an exclusive interview, Group Captain Ashu Srivastav, the Contingent Commander in the exercises, told NDTV that the performance of his pilots was "exceptional." According to Group Captain Srivastav, who happens to be the IAF's most experienced Su-30 pilot, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."

A Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jet of the Indian Air Force

The Indians did not have home advantage either as these were exercises in UK airspace with the Su-30s flown over from India. This is a full article on their trip to the UK.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336

I had this question as I was following the MKI debate on BRF

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&start=800#p1882448

Its mentioned there "Typhoon is a similar design philosophy to the F-15C and the F-22A, i.e.. a lot of emphasis on acceleration, climb, 40,000+ feet altitudes and the turn fight..Not so much on the mid-lower altitude, close quarter dogfighting side of the envelope."

So is it true that at 40K feel MKI would be at a disadvantage against Typhoon as the latter is optimised for high speed flight and former for subsonic low altitude ?

Does MKI has advantage over Typhoon in BVR combat

Its mentioned there "Typhoon is a similar design philosophy to the F-15C and the F-22A, i.e.. a lot of emphasis on acceleration, climb, 40,000+ feet altitudes and the turn fight..Not so much on the mid-lower altitude, close quarter dogfighting side of the envelope."

No.

Typhoon aerodynamic design is a degenerated version of Russian Ye-8. In Ye-8, at large AoA wind can go through the gap between the wing and horizontal tail to access with the vertical stabilizer. Meanwhile, in Typhoon, at large AoA the vertical stab is blocked by the wing and the hull, and then lost its function.

Therefore Typhoon and other EUcanard can't have large AoA and has very low maneuverability.

Meanwhile, F-15 and F-22 has the gap between horizontal tail and wind. And they have two vertical stabs which are positioned so that they are not blocked by the hull. That configuration is learned from MiG-25/31. That means F-15 and F-22 can achieve great AoA and is good at dogfight.

So is it true that at 40K feel MKI would be at a disadvantage against Typhoon as the latter is optimised for high speed flight and former for subsonic low altitude ?

It is right that Typhoon max speed is slightly higher than Su-30 (M2.2 > M2) and it is right that EUcanard configuration is favorable for forward movement at high speed. But maneuverability of Typhoon is pathetic.

Maneuverability is a distinctive characteristic for air fight, both long range and short range. It enable you to escape the incoming missiles or escape the radar vision of the enemy, etc etc. In air fight, Typhoon can't win against Su-30.

Does MKI has advantage over Typhoon in BVR combat

Yes.

Su-30 radar is bigger than Typhoon, that means it has better angular resolution.

Su-30 radar is PESA with dynamic shifted phase, that means it has advantage about the cleanliness, purity and quality of the signal, and it can quickly oscillate the radar beam like AESA.

Su-30 has 240 degree radar vision, much larger than Typhoon.

And as far as I know, Su-30's ECM is far superior than the West.

Thank You , How about Rafale is it better off ? IAF is purchasing atleast few squadrons of it.

You can have 10 Su-30MKIs for the price of one Typhoon...

And of course if you wanted give them a MAWs upgrade they should be comparable... adding the RVV-BD missile it should have a decent range advantage too.

Equally I would say the flight range and weapon capacity would be better in terms of the Flanker not needing external fuel tanks for most missions.

GarryB wrote:You can have 10 Su-30MKIs for the price of one Typhoon...  

And of course if you wanted give them a MAWs upgrade they should be comparable... adding the RVV-BD missile it should have a decent range advantage too.

Equally I would say the flight range and weapon capacity would be better in terms of the Flanker not needing external fuel tanks for most missions.

I am not sure if that is true , Recently Indian MOD quoted price of Su-30MKI at $60 million

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-india39s-fighters-battle-for-relevance-408269/

The air force received its first overhauled Su-30MKI (SB 027) from HAL in January. The overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is the first to be set up for the type globally. HAL chairman RK Tyagi says the airframer will now act as “a single window original equipment manufacturer for supporting the Su-30MKI fleet”.

“We are confident of improving the serviceability and ramping up capacity,” he adds.

New Su-30MKI’s delivered by HAL are estimated to cost $60 million each, with a comprehensive 14 year/1,500h overhaul costing the operator just under $20 million. With a second overhauled fighter now due for delivery, HAL says it can overhaul 15 aircraft annually at Nashik. Presently the total technical life of an Su-30MKI is 6,000h/25 years, and time between overhaul for its NPO Saturn AL31FP engines is 1,000h, with a total technical life of 2,000h. The time between overhaul and total technical life for the thrust vector nozzle is half of that of the engine.

Austin wrote:

GarryB wrote:You can have 10 Su-30MKIs for the price of one Typhoon...  

And of course if you wanted give them a MAWs upgrade they should be comparable... adding the RVV-BD missile it should have a decent range advantage too.

Equally I would say the flight range and weapon capacity would be better in terms of the Flanker not needing external fuel tanks for most missions.

I am not sure if that is true , Recently Indian MOD quoted price of Su-30MKI at $60 million

What comes with that price? Rouble value dropped, so overall costs dropped as well. Does that come with spares and training? Su-35S is had for much cheaper as an example.