Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

Do you think the commander would be safe in a jeep if a heavy brigade is needed?

A jeep is for a utility purposes.

The Russian military has given press releases about 4 universal platforms..

Do you have a link? I know only about 3 platforms which is developed on a direct order of the MoD.

With an unmanned turret and external gun the Armata MBT might even be able to elevate to hit such targets itself

Personally, I can't understand why nobody did it earlier

Sorry, the link didn't work.

Sorry. Here

So you are fully aware of all the dozens of different vehicles a brigade will operate that will be replaced by these universal platforms.

Don't know for sure now which platforms will be replaced for now, I don't think they can replace whole engeneering park on a, say, Boomerang platform.

That sounds like Taifun... a Kamaz development.

Taifun is a russian transcription of Typhoon.

n Grozny the BMPs were picked off and the Tanks attacked without protection in urban streets because their main guns could not engage targets in basements or in the second floor or above.

Because of a poor tactics. Dring the second storm there were no such issues

I could turn the question around and say why does a tank man get better protection than an IFV crewman when modern threats facing them both from extreme ranges.

Because of IFVs isn't supposed to face enemy tanks on thier own in an open terrein or go into RPG-filled cityblocks?

The likely finished end product appearance of the medium wheeled platform "Boomerang":

http://gurkhan.blogspot.be/2013/07/blog-post_31.html

http://www.rosinform.ru/photo/bumerang-veroyatnyy-vneshniy-vid-perspektivnogo-russkogo-bronetransportera/#slide-10

Boomerang vehicle remind on Patria AMV.

Seemed really close to what I saw. From exterior.

Left side of the hul comtaines an engine, right is a drivers place. Weapon operator is in the middle. Rear compartment is for the dismount infantry

Does Boomerang incorporate active defense systems ? In my opinion any armored vehicle without active defense is next to useless in the 21rst century.

calripson wrote:Does Boomerang incorporate active defense systems ? In my opinion any armored vehicle without active defense is next to useless in the 21rst century.

It'll most likely have "Standard" APS, the APS that was originally developed for the T-95 MBT and probably a new generation of Shtora PPS.

calripson wrote:Does Boomerang incorporate active defense systems ? In my opinion any armored vehicle without active defense is next to useless in the 21rst century.

May be, it's a combat module issue, not a platform one. It should be I think, image dosen't show one, though it means nothing

Do you have a link? I know only about 3 platforms which is developed on a direct order of the MoD.

Lots of them... have a look at the thread links I gave you and look in the first few pages... for instance:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t1854-official-armata-discussion-thread

In post number 5 George1 posts an article that has this:

The Russian armed forces will have as many as four versatile base platforms: the “Armata” crawler platform for heavy tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and other types of motorized infantry brigades weighing up to 65 tons. Among other projects are the “Kurganets-25” medium crawler platform in the 25-ton range and two wheeled platforms – a medium 25-ton and a light 10-ton platform of the “Bumerang” family.

There should be a few other articles posted around this forum too... some mention 4 families as armata, kurganets-25, boomerang-25, and Typhoon, while others replace Typhoon with Boomerang-10 and talk about three vehicle programs.

The fact that most vehicle companies in Russia are releasing photos of new 4 and 6 wheeled vehicles called Typhoon suggests a competition to me.

Don't know for sure now which platforms will be replaced for now, I don't think they can replace whole engeneering park on a, say, Boomerang platform.

Well I suspect they will want to roll these new vehicles out one brigade at a time rather than introducing the Armata MBT as the new MBT for a brigade and then expanding to add armata IFVs and APCs etc etc.

Of course initially they might not have a complete range of vehicles for every vehicle type... though I don't see why not... a new vehicle on a new chassis should be as easy to develop as a complete modernisation of an older type.

Because of a poor tactics. Dring the second storm there were no such issues

I think you could argue that poor tactics were to blame, and particularly a poor understanding of the resolve of the enemy. The vehicles rolling in... in formation into well prepared urban areas is incredibly vulnerable... were the planners naieve, or were they hoping a show of strength and boldness might call the enemies bluff and avoid the destruction of the city that most attacks on large cities results in.

What happened happened and they certainly didn't make the same mistake again... people in the west talked about brutality and shelling civilians, but that is so typical.

I remember during Afghanistan when the western media that did bother to cover the war talked about the use of air power to destroy villages over and over again... the amusing thing is that now that NATO is there with TV coverage it is common for any resistance when moving through a village to be dealt with using air power and heavy aircraft delivered bombs, yet there are no comments regarding excessive force.

Because of IFVs isn't supposed to face enemy tanks on thier own in an open terrein or go into RPG-filled cityblocks?

IFVs operate a few hundred metres behind MBTs in open terrain, and how can tanks operate alone in built up areas?

The whole point of armata is that the IFVs can go where the tanks go and vice versa due to both the same protection and the same mobility.

(The earlier solution is to leave the IFV behind and send the tanks in with the BMPT tank support vehicle where infantry are too vulnerable to excessive enemy fire power).

In post number 5 George1 posts an article that has this:

boomerang-25, and Typhoon

Not a single word about 4th different platform. It only says there will be 25-ton version of Boomerang and a 10-ton one. I've not found any proofs in runet about 10-ton version of Boomerang which is called Typhoon. I think it will be one platform with different number of axels (like Volk, for example). Th eonly Typhoon I know is the Kamaz MRAP and some kind of automated weapon platform for RVSN

though I don't see why not...

There can be technical issues. I don't know if they can design, say, a bridge-layer on a boomerang chassis. Or a 152 mm howizer (I saw only a model of 120 mm gun on boomerang chassis)? Not to mention economic and political issues. Say, one company produces special-purpose vehicles on they own (a bulldozers, for example). They can't produce, say, high-techy boomerang chassis, so they have to close part of their production firing people. And will "boomerang bulldozers" be as good as a proven ones. Personally, I never saw a wheeled bulldozer or a bridge-layer.

were the planners naieve, or were they hoping a show of strength and boldness might call the enemies bluff and avoid the destruction of the city that most attacks on large cities results in

I don't think they were THAT stupid. It's somekind of an anecdote - let's send our men to a certain death to scare enemy in hope he will surrender facing our determination and boldness!

how can tanks operate alone in built up areas?

It's easy. Infantry platoon commanders form stormgroups, tanks are behind them giving fire support. In case of advanse infantry moves on the both sides of a street, and a tank is in the middle, so an armoured vehicle is protected by the small arms fire and infantry is covered by the large caliber.
If don't need to storm a city, just ignore it and move around.

The whole point of armata is that the IFVs can go where the tanks go and vice versa due to both the same protection and the same mobility.

I know, I only wonder how many men can it fit

Asf wrote:

how can tanks operate alone in built up areas?

It's easy. Infantry platoon commanders form stormgroups, tanks are behind them giving fire support. In case of advanse infantry moves on the both sides of a street, and a tank is in the middle, so an armoured vehicle is protected by the small arms fire and infantry is covered by the large caliber.
If don't need to storm a city, just ignore it and move around.

1. It's not easy. Only few countries can actually pull it off. 
2. Question was - if it can operate alone. In my humble opinion, hell no. Boots should be there too, acting the way You mentioned.

It's not easy. Only few countries can actually pull it off.

Everything is easy to say   

Question was - if it can operate alone.

No. And I don't think it can operate together with BMPT without infantry in urban areas. That's why it's called the combined arms approach

Asf wrote:

It's not easy. Only few countries can actually pull it off.

Everything is easy to say   

Question was - if it can operate alone.

No. And I don't think it can operate together with BMPT without infantry in urban areas. That's why it's called the combined arms approach

So we are in the same book

an armata brigade riding into town would be devastating. anyone short of the best of the west would be gargling c*cks all day.
rpg cells on roofs and basements would have to choose from 125mm, 120mm, 57/45mm, to 30mm HE shells to ruin their day.

"Kurganmashzavod" started making "Kurganets-25" for the parade May 9, 2015

Hi, Do you have Stealth technology equipment ?

TheArmenian wrote:The Armata tank and the Karatelia special purpose vehicle have their own threads. Now that we have some more tangible photos of the Kurganets and Boomerang, it is time to dedicate a new thread to these platforms.


Starting from the front:
Boomerang with 120 mm mortar
Boomerang with 57 mm gun
Kurganets-25 with 57 mm gun
Kurganets-25 with 125 mm gun


From 5th vehicle:
152 mm Self propelled gun on wheeled chassis
152 mm gun on tracked chassis


152 mm naval gun

Some quick observations from my side:
The 57mm guns on Boomerang/Kurganets looks to be heavy and is meant to have a high rate of fire and a high muzzle velocity.
The 125 mm gun armed Kurganets with an unmanned turret is a new concept that will mark the return of the medium tank.
The wheeled 152mm artillery is probably a recalibrated version of the Bereg coastal defence gun.
The chassis of the tracked 152mm is not clear in the picture. Probably Armata based.
The naval 152mm turret is impressive. It indicates a large surface combatant is in the plans.

sweetflowers365 wrote:Hi, Do you have Stealth technology equipment ?

TheArmenian wrote:The Armata tank and the Karatelia special purpose vehicle have their own threads. Now that we have some more tangible photos of the Kurganets and Boomerang, it is time to dedicate a new thread to these platforms.


Starting from the front:
Boomerang with 120 mm mortar
Boomerang with 57 mm gun
Kurganets-25 with 57 mm gun
Kurganets-25 with 125 mm gun


From 5th vehicle:
152 mm Self propelled gun on wheeled chassis
152 mm gun on tracked chassis


152 mm naval gun

Some quick observations from my side:
The 57mm guns on Boomerang/Kurganets looks to be heavy and is meant to have a high rate of fire and a high muzzle velocity.
The 125 mm gun armed Kurganets with an unmanned turret is a new concept that will mark the return of the medium tank.
The wheeled 152mm artillery is probably a recalibrated version of the Bereg coastal defence gun.
The chassis of the tracked 152mm is not clear in the picture. Probably Armata based.
The naval 152mm turret is impressive. It indicates a large surface combatant is in the plans.

Russia has.

I do too.

George1 wrote:"Kurganmashzavod" started making "Kurganets-25" for the parade May 9, 2015

Interesting that two photos in the comments section of the link above both show IFVs with 50-60mm calibre guns, but the model clearly shows no muzzle brake.

This is normally an indication that the gun is designed to fire APFSDS rounds which rarely have muzzle brakes to ensure the sabot separates cleanly.

This would indicate a high velocity anti armour weapon.

Note the S-60 57mm AA gun uses a muzzle brake because its AP ammo has to be full bore ammo.

using HVAPFSDS rounds would create problems because HE shells would have a totally different trajectory to the armour piercing rounds, so AP rounds for AA guns tend to be full calibre and have a similar trajectory to the HE rounds.

With this new IFV high velocity Armour piercing ammo needs much better penetration and standard HE shells don't need to match trajectories as the fire control computer should sort out the different trajectories for the different ammo types.

Chinese Boomerang?

Probably just another indigenous Chinese project... - It could be based off of a BTR or BTR copy.

George1 wrote:[url=/blogs/45401/]"Kurganmashzavod" started making "Kurganets-25" for the parade May 9, 2015[/url]

Kurganets will be totally useless against BRIMSTONE . With its MMW radar seeker it can detect targets and compare target signatures with signatures recorded in an on board database thereby allowing it to choose its own targets.

BRIMSTONE can defeat all known conventional and reactive armor . It can even take out the T-90 with utmost ease.

These new Armoured vehical will carry APS and Smoke Jammers to deal with Brimstone/Javelian type missile

NickM wrote:

George1 wrote:[url=/blogs/45401/]"Kurganmashzavod" started making "Kurganets-25" for the parade May 9, 2015[/url]

Kurganets will be totally useless against BRIMSTONE . With its MMW radar seeker it can detect targets and compare target signatures with signatures recorded in an on board database thereby allowing  it to choose its own targets.

BRIMSTONE can defeat all known conventional and reactive armor . It can even take out the T-90 with utmost ease.

Highly unlikely. 4S23 Relikt was explecit designed to counter any incoming projectile regardless of Tandem shaped charged warhead or APFSDS. Brimstone maybe a good ATGM but it is still bound to physics. I'm pretty sure that most HEAT weapons regardless mono or tandem warheads would have problems against Nozh, since it sends hundreds of small shaped charged jet streams to cut the warheads incoming jetstream and before the 2nd main HEAT charge is set off it is already getting penetrated by Nozh.

The question would be will Brimstone be able to see the new Russian armour as it will likely be fitted with radar and IR absorbant material to reduce and change its IR and radar signature making detection rather more difficult... though not impossible.

Armata will likely use its own MMW radar to detect incoming threats and thereby perhaps might detect Brimstone very early in its attack phase offering the opportunity to decoy, dazzle, or distract the tiny seeker in the incoming missile.

Курганец-25 ,in military parade of 9 May 2015, will be presented in two versions -12 vehicles each- APC and IFV ,the likely most common variants of this unified platform .



http://vpk.name/news/116310_48_kurganskih_boevyih_mashin_gotovyat_na_parad_pobedyi_v_moskvu.html



About the provocative assertion about.....Brimstone.....  (a little more than a modification of the AGM114 Hellfire , a weapon that was obsolete even only against '80 years level Soviet Ground Force's defensive architecture) ; well let we briefly examine the question :


Carrying aircraft attacking a column of Курганец-25 should struggle for survival (way before weapon delivery   ) against, in order :


1) Frontline aviation elements (interceptors and ,after, squadrons of tactical aircraft with weapon and EW suit totally oriented to air superiority roles)
2) С-300В4 long range SAM batteries.
3) Бук-М3 medium range SAM batteries.
4) Панцирь-СМ close-to-medium range SAM batteries.


After the delivery the..... BrimstoneI/II.....will be forced to overcome (over the previously mentioned elements capable, if the need should even arise, to engage also air to ground munitions too), before getting the chance to hit even only a single "Курганец-25 " in order  :


1) EW complex " Красуха-2/4" , "Москва-1" and "Дивноморье" capable at very long range to severe weapon position up-link and satellite connection for both the carrying aircraft and the delivered weapons assuring theirs deviation off-course;  at medium range to blind MMW seekers of the inbound missiles ; and at very close range, (for a future component of one of them) to act as a true DE microwave weapons capable to destroy the incoming elements through highly concentrated emissions of UHF radiation.
2) System Ртуть-БМ ,optimized for the destruction of hostile missiles in-flight guidance and terminal radar homing.
3) Complete masking of the entire ground column in march with the purposely optimized masking system "ТДА-2К" (acting both in the short wave length radar bands and in the IR and near-IR optical band !).
4) Active destruction ,at mid-range, by part of radar/optronic guided SAM "Тор-М2КМ" and/or "Панцирь-С".
5) Active destruction ,at closer range, by part of IR homing SAM "Стрела-10М3" (or ,worse ,variant of "Морфей") , laser beam riding the type "Корнет-AМ" and ПЗРК "Верба".
6) Active close range destruction with 30mm ....and, at brief , new higher caliber.... high frequency fire cannons , including those mounted on the same unified platform "Курганец-25 "   , all linked in the new Army's unified battle control and management system capable to assign targets to the better placed vehicles for theirs defeat.
7) Incapability to home on the vehicle for the in-built and equipped signature reducing measures implemented in the "Курганец-25".
Destruction of the missile by part of the Active Protection System, "Standard", mounted on Курганец-25.  
9) Overcoming of the new generation of armor , purposely developed by "НИИ Стали" for this class of LAV, capable to reduce the damages within repairable threshold.


No other Army at world has anything even only by far comparable with a similar defensive, multi-type and multi-layered umbrella for its ground forces; it is designed to successfully repeal attacks conducted with future, post 2020, offensive means entire orders of magnitude more complex and difficult to neutralize than this.......modified AGM-114