Polish Armed Forces: News

sepheronx wrote:Guess more target practice for Pantsir's?  Maybe Tor as well.  40 of them? Is Polish people even this easily fooled?

max steel wrote:Polish orders "David's Sling" intercepting missiles made by the Israel


Polska scaring

magnumcromagnon wrote:

What's more laughable is that the Israeli's are claiming it can definitively defeat Iskander-M's, even with a puny, minuscule KKV warhead lol!

max steel wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

What's more laughable is that the Israeli's are claiming it can definitively defeat Iskander-M's, even with a puny, minuscule KKV warhead lol!  

I've asked it before but no one replied to it , how exactly Iskander follows quasi-ballisitc path different from a traditional Ballistic Missile path?


People claim a lot like one poster on Keypub forum claimed that sm-3&6 Aegis class destroyers are meant to intercept mach 15-20 ballistic missiles so a Mach 5 Cruise missile or Ashm is hardly an issue for Aegis.  

GarryB wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Interesting to say the least.  The fact that these missiles mostly fly below the main radar path, making it hard for missile defense systems to detect it and counter it (PAC-3, etc), but they have maneuvering abilities to evade incoming defense threats.  These missiles are yet again, another step in missile technology, making Russia still #1 in this field.

The cost of these missiles, and the effectiveness makes them very intriguing system.  That is why I understand many countries trying to get their hands on the system.

Well, no, they don't fly under the radar, western radar would detect them early enough.
The problem arises for the air defence SAM that when engaging very fast targets that you have to fly to where the target will be rather than where it currently is.

What I mean is that if you have a large room and you have one person walking straight across it as the missile and direct another missile to intercept it if you launch the SAM directly at where the person is by the time your SAM gets there the person will have moved on.
Because the person is moving at pretty much a similar speed to western SAMs this means that if the person coming across the room keeps changing direction the SAM has to cover a huge amount of ground to compensate.

Even a turn of 10 degrees can shift the interception point by a much larger amount for a very fast target.
The SAM will run out of energy and drop from the sky and keep in mind that the Iskander flys a ballistic trajectory so for the first part of its flight it will be very very high. PAC-3 has a very restricted range against ballistic targets (due to their steep trajectory) and would not cope well with a manouvering target.

GarryB wrote:Iskander does not follow a pure ballistic path and actually manoeuvres to the target specifically to evade enemy air defences.
It is even reported to carry active jamming and decoy equipment for that purpose.

THAAD was pretty much designed to fight SCUD and equivelent weapons.

GarryB wrote:

That said , I still recon that the terminal homing phase of any modern day TBM missile , including the Iskander does not have evasive manoeuvring capabilities, because these are all pre-programmed, and are not REACTIVE in real-time .

An object travelling at mach 7 is a tricky target even when no manouvering. The range of the Iskander is limited by export treaties and it has the capacity to reach considerably longer ranges if desired in the domestic model. The extra range capacity in the export model is not available to export customers but that extra volume can be utilised in other ways... like a noise jammer or disposable decoys. I have read comments about A-100s being able to redirect Iskanders in flight to new targets, which makes me think that perhaps reactive manouvering is not impossible. A random manouver dance in to the target would be as problematic to defeat as reactive manouvering because the interception point is several kilometers in front of the missile so a small turn at the last second and all of a sudden the interceptor missile has to detect that turn, continue to track the target to determine a new interception point and then turn and get to that interception point in time to be there when the target is there... a very difficult task even at the best of times let alone when there are several Iskanders in flight... even a failed attack would reveal a lot about the local IAD.

Mindstorm wrote:

Sujoy wrote:It has now been reported ( during Eurosatory ) that Barak-8 LR-SAM or even the Barak-2 MR-SAM can intercept the Iskander E coz the iskander-E’s terminal homing phase does have evasive manoeuvring capabilities, however, these are all pre-programmed, and are not REACTIVE in real-time to any BMD network. Consequently, the Iskander-E’s terminal flight-path too is vulnerable to interception .

    Please can point out who has uttered this ....claim (possibly with the source of the news) ?

Even more interesting would be know how much and what kind of tests (even only against antediluvian theatre ballistic missiles with performances several dozen of times inferior to the export version of Isdkander  -Iskander-E-) Barak-8 LR has completed to even only get an elementary basis to open the mouth on this subject .

Last time i've checked, IAI was all rejoicings and chest thumps in 2011 after the first successful interception by part of ...Arrow II (a purposely designed ABM defence system with capabilities several order of magnitude greater than Barak-8 against similar targets) of a target simulating a ballistic missile immeasurably less capable than the export version of Iskander.


I am very, very curious      

Mindstorm wrote:

That said , I still recon that the terminal homing phase of any modern day TBM missile , including the Iskander does not have evasive manoeuvring capabilities, because these are all pre-programmed, and are not REACTIVE in real-time .

Please Sujoy say to me that the man uttering this clamorous INTERPLANETARY IDIOCY was not part of the company's technical delegation, but was simply a low level marketing employer (anyhow a very unprofessional one); otherwise it would become very quickly the most leg pulled technician at world ,among the in-field operatives.

1) Is this world is the intercepting element in similar engagement at react to the trajectory's variations proposed by the offensive element and ,therefore, only the element's aerodynamic/structural limits, G-pull thresholds and -for the offensive one- the cycles of the pseudo-random speed's variations will have a role in deciding the chances of successuful interception ;the inverse process is simply a ridiculous....non-sense (the intercepting element simply follow its proportional closed-loop homing and missile-target correlation guidance).

2) The problem linked to the possible interception of Iskander-type ballistic missiles is under scrutiny and without a solution ,at today, by part of Institutions of the field with tradition and rooted scientific know-how dozen of times greater than those involved in the Barak-8-LR project (which will surely be a good SAM system ,but that even only consider an anti-ballistic capable missile represent a immense warping of its capabilities) .
At now ,in the West the most promising route for attempt ,in future, to intercept a similar ballistic missile is in work in Europe with a purposely modified Aster-30 missile (and i image you know the huge difference in manoeuvring ,aerodynamic stress limit and ....costs between a Barak-8-LR and an Aster-30).
Well, also for THIS SAM the plan is, in future, to attempt an interception in the small time window between ballistic missile re-allignment and start of the manoeuvring phase.

This is an extract from France Senate interrogation on ballistic missile defence subject and the joint MBDA, SAFRAN et THALES project:

M. Antoine Bouvier -MBDA President- : En outre, l'exoatmosphérique ne traite pas l'intégralité de la menace, loin s'en faut. La faisabilité technique des systèmes d'interception à altitude moyenne/haut endoatmosphérique n'est plus remise en cause. Ces systèmes permettent de couvrir la gamme de menaces balistiques de nouvelle génération, non interceptables par les systèmes exoatmosphériques. Il s'agit par exemple des missiles russes de type SS 26 Iskander ou chinois M9. Cette menace n'est couverte ni par la nouvelle génération de missiles Patriot, ni par le missile SM-3, ni même par les systèmes THAAD (Theater High Altitude Area Defense).
Il existe donc dans les systèmes américains ce qu'on pourrait appeler des « trous dans la raquette » qui sont autant d'opportunités pour l'Europe de contribuer en nature ses propres systèmes.......
La première étape serait de disposer dès 2015 d'une première capacité de théâtre autonome pour les menaces de portée inférieure à 600 km. Pour cela, il audrait finaliser la capacité anti-balistique du SAMP/T ce qui nécessite l'acquisition de deux radars GS1000, acquisition qui n'est pas prévue avant 2022.

...............

Les Russes ont développé le SS-26 Iskander, les Chinois le M9, les Syriens le M600 et les Iraniens le Fateh 110. Ces missiles ne font pas appel à des technologies nouvelles. Nous les avions déjà utilisées pour le missile « préstratégique » Hades.
Ces missiles présentent une particularité. Ils volent dans l'atmosphère, en dessous de 60 à 70 kilomètres, et lorsqu'ils rentrent dans les couches denses de l'atmosphère, à 25 ou 30 kilomètres, ils acquièrent une capacité manoeuvrante qui les rend quasiment impossibles à intercepter.
L'interception de ces missiles doit donc se faire entre 25/30 et 60/70 kilomètres. Comme je l'indiquais, aucun des programmes américains ne répond à cette exigence. D'après nos analyses, le THAAD ne descend pas en dessous de 50 kilomètres. Le Patriot ne monte pas au dessus de 20 à 25 kilomètres. Quant au SM-3, il évolue dans l'espace exoatmosphérique.

Naturally all of that happen on planet Earth , now we must only discover from what planet come from the guy who have talked with you at Eurosatory......

Mindstorm wrote:

Checked his business card again , it says Managing Director .

Ok, at least the good repute and honour of Israeli scientific institutions of the sector are safe.

When it comes to NLOS-BSMs like the Iskander-E, BP-12A or B-611M, what matters more is not the hittile-probably of the interceptor missile’s kill vehicle, but the ability to track such NLOS-BSMs

That, Sujoy is simply and plainly not true.

Detection and Tracking of a similar ballistic missile is the last problem afflicting an Air Defence structure tasked to neutralize a similar menace ; what matter ,instead, literally several hundreds of times more is the average closing speed involved at the computed interception point (and also ,of course, the cycle and intensity of the velocity variations of the re-entry element),the G-limits of both offensive and intercepting elements (...i image that you are perfectly aware that intercepting element must pull multiple times the G pull of the manoeuvring re-entry vehicle in order to have a chance to intercept it) and the responsiveness of aerodynamic surfaces/actuators to trajectory's variations to reduce in-flight times of redirection to a new interception point.
Even very small variations in those factors generate vastly disproportionate effects in the related interception sequence and final Pk of the SAM interceptors .The failure to comply with requirements of even only one of those variables and your chances of a successful interception become instantly near to zero , you could at this point put in the air the interceptor missiles of three four AD regiments without get one chance on thousands to intercept one incoming missile !!!

Is just for those reasons that Iskander is stimed ,at today, completely not-interceptable during its manoeuvring re-entry phase and its also the reason for which the menace of its deployment in Kalingrad against the NATO ABM elements in East Europe ,by part of Russian authorities ,is used as an "exchange coin" in the diplomatic negotiation.

It is not a casualness that ALL PROJECTS in work today around the world and aimed at realize ,in future, an interceptor capable to neutralize Iskander-type BM ,foresee its interception in the small time window of its re-allignment phase ,before the beginning of its manoeuvring phase ,where it is regarded as effectively invulnerable .
That, of course, has literally NOTHING TO DO with detection/tracking of the missile. (and , for clarity, what i have cited in the prevoius post rofere to a future project aimed at interception of Iskander-class BM involving the, by far ,most sophisticated, advanced and capable western-made SAM system now present on the international scene).

they will have highly restricted manoeuvrability due to their depressed flight trajectories

   If this Managing Director was in an external stand ,please suggest to it to procure, for the next time, a good hat or an internal stand....to much sun can be very dangerous for some people.

Let me guess, this authentic genius has suggested to employ Barak-8-LR.....Barak-8-LR !!! (yes exactly the same SAM that is designed to intercept aircraft, cruise missiles, UAV, helicopters etc.)....to intercept at long range and 45-50 km of altitude a random-speed variating Mach-7 class target ; a task today outside the capabilities of purposely designed anti-ballistic missiles such as PAC-3 ,THAAD and SM-3 [/b] and planned in future -2020-2022- for a purposely modified Aster-30 ?

Simply priceless    

This guy is the true "Col. Fornof" of the air defense sector     .  

Mindstorm wrote:

TR1 wrote:Mindstorm- thoughts on David's Sling vs Iskander?

Iskander or Iskander-E ?

For the former the chances of a successful interception would be next to zero , for the latter with a very high number of interceptors shoot for single inbound missile you could obtain some interception ,anyhow with a scarce Phit and Pk.


Something say to me that your question come from some "debate" at militaryphotos forum....i image that you are perfectly aware that it is one of the "place" on the net woth the higher concentration of Hasbara Fellowships and CAMERA memebers it is literally infested (ah ,and if something reverberate in your mind now....yes it is just so   .CAMERA has nothing to do with Camera Cafe).  

max steel wrote:


Poles talking sense , from when ?

zg18 wrote:

franco wrote:So some of Poles still believe this??? Wow!!


Polish Defense Minister: Smolensk plane crash - the attack

   " At the moment, terrorism is used against Western countries as a tool to provoke the flow of migration to destabilize the European continent. It is worth remembering that Poland was the first victim of terrorism in the 30-ies. After the Smolensk catastrophe, we can say that Poland was the first victim of terrorism in the modern conflict that played out before our eyes, "- said March 13 in Torun Polish defense minister Antoni Macierewicz, during his speech at the international conference" Modern Politics: conflict and terrorism ".
   Speaking about the Katyn massacre of 1940, the Minister Macierewicz pointed out that "genocide is at the origins of the current situation in Russia." He added that "does not indicate any specific actions of the authorities." At the same time, he said, "still lies silent printing on the Russian people about what happened in the Soviet period, with their ancestors."
   "Only an independent Poland could loudly declare Katyn genocide. In 2009, yet it seems that it is. However, we found that an attempt to raise the issue caused a reaction, which is not expected by anybody in the world. This reaction brought the death of the entire Polish elite. I mean the death of the Polish delegation at Smolensk, "- said the head of the Defense Ministry of Poland.
   "Terrorism is a product of the Soviet-socialist ideas, and did not exist in the history of Western Christendom", - the Minister Macierewicz said. "We clearly see this in the history of the past 10 years. Without a doubt, an armed attack on Georgia was preceded by internal sabotage. Without a doubt, the goal of what happened near Smolensk, was depriving the Polish leadership, which led us to independence. The next steps were attacked the Ukraine, the occupation of the industrial part of the country, Malaysian Airlines plane crash, the intervention in the situation in Syria ", - he said.
   "Poland is a member of NATO and will be able to resist this, and get time on the restoration of the army, which will guarantee the security of the Polish" - added the head of the Defense Ministry of Poland.
   *****

Militarov wrote:

franco wrote:So some of Poles still believe this??? Wow!!


Polish Defense Minister: Smolensk plane crash - the attack

   " At the moment, terrorism is used against Western countries as a tool to provoke the flow of migration to destabilize the European continent. It is worth remembering that Poland was the first victim of terrorism in the 30-ies. After the Smolensk catastrophe, we can say that Poland was the first victim of terrorism in the modern conflict that played out before our eyes, "- said March 13 in Torun Polish defense minister Antoni Macierewicz, during his speech at the international conference" Modern Politics: conflict and terrorism ".
   Speaking about the Katyn massacre of 1940, the Minister Macierewicz pointed out that "genocide is at the origins of the current situation in Russia." He added that "does not indicate any specific actions of the authorities." At the same time, he said, "still lies silent printing on the Russian people about what happened in the Soviet period, with their ancestors."
   "Only an independent Poland could loudly declare Katyn genocide. In 2009, yet it seems that it is. However, we found that an attempt to raise the issue caused a reaction, which is not expected by anybody in the world. This reaction brought the death of the entire Polish elite. I mean the death of the Polish delegation at Smolensk, "- said the head of the Defense Ministry of Poland.
   "Terrorism is a product of the Soviet-socialist ideas, and did not exist in the history of Western Christendom", - the Minister Macierewicz said. "We clearly see this in the history of the past 10 years. Without a doubt, an armed attack on Georgia was preceded by internal sabotage. Without a doubt, the goal of what happened near Smolensk, was depriving the Polish leadership, which led us to independence. The next steps were attacked the Ukraine, the occupation of the industrial part of the country, Malaysian Airlines plane crash, the intervention in the situation in Syria ", - he said.
   "Poland is a member of NATO and will be able to resist this, and get time on the restoration of the army, which will guarantee the security of the Polish" - added the head of the Defense Ministry of Poland.
   *****

Its the high ranking officers that push that story:

"Both the Russian and Polish official investigations found no technical faults with the aircraft, and concluded that the crew failed to conduct the approach in a safe manner in the given weather conditions. The Polish authorities found serious deficiencies in the organization and training of the Air Force unit involved, which was subsequently disbanded. Several high-ranking members of the Polish military resigned, under pressure from politicians and the media.

Various conspiracy theories about the crash have since been in circulation, and are promoted by senior political figures in Poland, who claim the crash was a political assassination, but no evidence supporting this version was found in the Polish investigation."

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Militarov wrote:

franco wrote:So some of Poles still believe this??? Wow!!


Polish Defense Minister: Smolensk plane crash - the attack

   " At the moment, terrorism is used against Western countries as a tool to provoke the flow of migration to destabilize the European continent. It is worth remembering that Poland was the first victim of terrorism in the 30-ies. After the Smolensk catastrophe, we can say that Poland was the first victim of terrorism in the modern conflict that played out before our eyes, "- said March 13 in Torun Polish defense minister Antoni Macierewicz, during his speech at the international conference" Modern Politics: conflict and terrorism ".
   Speaking about the Katyn massacre of 1940, the Minister Macierewicz pointed out that "genocide is at the origins of the current situation in Russia." He added that "does not indicate any specific actions of the authorities." At the same time, he said, "still lies silent printing on the Russian people about what happened in the Soviet period, with their ancestors."
   "Only an independent Poland could loudly declare Katyn genocide. In 2009, yet it seems that it is. However, we found that an attempt to raise the issue caused a reaction, which is not expected by anybody in the world. This reaction brought the death of the entire Polish elite. I mean the death of the Polish delegation at Smolensk, "- said the head of the Defense Ministry of Poland.
   "Terrorism is a product of the Soviet-socialist ideas, and did not exist in the history of Western Christendom", - the Minister Macierewicz said. "We clearly see this in the history of the past 10 years. Without a doubt, an armed attack on Georgia was preceded by internal sabotage. Without a doubt, the goal of what happened near Smolensk, was depriving the Polish leadership, which led us to independence. The next steps were attacked the Ukraine, the occupation of the industrial part of the country, Malaysian Airlines plane crash, the intervention in the situation in Syria ", - he said.
   "Poland is a member of NATO and will be able to resist this, and get time on the restoration of the army, which will guarantee the security of the Polish" - added the head of the Defense Ministry of Poland.
   *****

Its the high ranking officers that push that story:

"Both the Russian and Polish official investigations found no technical faults with the aircraft, and concluded that the crew failed to conduct the approach in a safe manner in the given weather conditions. The Polish authorities found serious deficiencies in the organization and training of the Air Force unit involved, which was subsequently disbanded. Several high-ranking members of the Polish military resigned, under pressure from politicians and the media.

Various conspiracy theories about the crash have since been in circulation, and are promoted by senior political figures in Poland, who claim the crash was a political assassination, but no evidence supporting this version was found in the Polish investigation."

The only people who gained from this was NATO.