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RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Viktor

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Post n°101

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Viktor Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:12 pm

@TR1

Agreed, and as Russia/China ties grows closer we will see even more "china takes Siberia" articles and like.

There is no reason why Russia would not sell. It is selling export items and making money in the process while at the same

time increasing military power of those states. Its a win win situation.

A framework agreement was sign, meaning China will buy but negotiations about the price and all are still ongoing.

Su-35, S-400, Il-476 in different forms, Amur (tnx Garry) class, engines (already being done) and God knows what else is on

China wishing list. Looking backwards it seems to me that China while developing its own military sector never really gave up

on Russian stuff but nearly has been waiting more advance Russian stuff.

GarryB

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Post n°102

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:19 am

Hehehe...China is not stupid... the US has managed to become rich without actually invading countries to directly take over resources... spending money to make more money makes rather more sense without the problems of occupation.

Even assuming China could take siberia, the cost on its economy of such a militant act would stunt its development for a decade or more.

The fact that it can't take siberia makes the question moot... most evil geniuses dream of starting a fight between its greatest enemies... Stalin would have loved to have seen Germany try to invade the UK... the UK itself was happy to delay landing in europe till the war was decided after 1943.

Claims they couldn't invade europe because of the potential for enormous losses... do they mean like the enormous losses the Soviets were taking because they had no enormous body of water to hide behind?

Viktor

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Post n°103

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Viktor Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:03 pm

I wonder when will we find out the numbers?

The Chinese delegation will assess the Su-35

Representative Chinese delegation will hold talks in Moscow on the purchase of new Russian multi-role fighters Su-35 and read the aerobatic capabilities of this machine in Kubinka, where they will be organized on Wednesday a special demonstration flights, told "Interfax" a source in the structures associated with the export of weapons.

"The Russian and Chinese experts have started consultations on the issue of delivery of the latest multifunctional Chinese Air Force Su-35 fighters. At present, Moscow is the Chinese delegation, which read the flight of the airplane, look it in flight, and will hold another round of talks on the purchase of the aircraft, "- said the source.

He said that the Russian side in the talks will be attended by representatives of "Rosoboronexport", the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and the Aviation Holding Company "Sukhoi".

Responding to a question, how many Su-35 can be delivered to China, the agency said it will be a significant amount. "Piece, in small batches, we a technique such as the Su-35, do not sell abroad," - he said.

Earlier, deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Vyacheslav Dzirkaln informed "Interfax-AVN" that the intergovernmental Russian-Chinese agreement to supply in China multi-purpose fighter Su-35 was signed in January this year. According to him, this will not be a license and supply contracts, that is, China will get ready to operate aircraft.

LINK

sepheronx

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Post n°104

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

sepheronx Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:04 am

I doubt they will get the Su-35S. The plane is wonderful and all, but China is all about the Market, and the market states that: "If it isn't 5th gen, it is obselete" and these people will buy into it. Thus, reason why Pakistani's and Chinese love to think that their flying shells of an aircraft using RD-33 engines, doesn't mean its 5th gen, just looks like one. Su-35S, in the eyes of many, is just an Su-27 with newer (obselete becasue it isn't AESA) radar and engines, but the same old thing, blah blah blah.

Russia really needs to just start pushing these models aside, let Irkutsk, Mikoyan and Sukhoi compete with each other with their own 5th gen jets, even if they are not fully 5th gen (useing Zhuk-A radar as an example, with modified RD-33 engines or AL-31 engines, etc with a new chasis) and sell it as a 5th gen, as that is what will convince the masses.

GarryB

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Post n°105

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:06 pm

China has displayed the shell of a 5th gen aircraft but it is pretty clear from their purchases of Russian engines that they have a long way to go before they can even master 4th gen.

China would love to have Su-35S, but I doubt Russia will actually sell them Su-35S... it will more likely be Su-35KK (export china) that they will sell and I suspect they will insist on selling 48 rather than the 4 or 5 the Chinese actually want to buy.

TR1

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Post n°106

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

TR1 Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Apparently a Chinese delegation was checking out the Su-35 07 doing maneuvers @ Kubinka, so talks are definitely underway.

sepheronx

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Post n°107

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

sepheronx Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:25 am

GarryB wrote:China has displayed the shell of a 5th gen aircraft but it is pretty clear from their purchases of Russian engines that they have a long way to go before they can even master 4th gen.

China would love to have Su-35S, but I doubt Russia will actually sell them Su-35S... it will more likely be Su-35KK (export china) that they will sell and I suspect they will insist on selling 48 rather than the 4 or 5 the Chinese actually want to buy.

Yes, I am fully aware of that. But what I am saying is that regardless if it is just a shell, people will believe it simply by its looks. And that is a good example as to why Peru was about to buy MBT-2000 (then thankfully, turned out the tank was actually shit) and why some African countries buy the MBT-2000. Asthetically, it looks nice, techicnally, not the greatest.

GarryB

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Post n°108

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:50 am

What I meant was that China can't even make 4th gen aircraft engines itself so the shell of the 5th gen should not be taken as meaning that China wont be interested in Su-35s... they will be VERY interested.

sepheronx

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Post n°109

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

sepheronx Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:47 am

GarryB wrote:What I meant was that China can't even make 4th gen aircraft engines itself so the shell of the 5th gen should not be taken as meaning that China wont be interested in Su-35s... they will be VERY interested.

Chinese officers may be interested, but not the government. They would rather continue on with the J-11B with so called AESA radar. They are more interested in the fact that they like their copies and it would be a total hit in pride to China if they purchaed Su-35S. So chances are slim that they will do it.

GarryB

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Post n°110

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:21 am

They are more interested in the fact that they like their copies and it would be a total hit in pride to China if they purchaed Su-35S.

I disagree... they produce copies when the original does not suit them, or is too expensive or not on offer.

sepheronx

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Post n°111

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

sepheronx Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:13 am

GarryB wrote:

They are more interested in the fact that they like their copies and it would be a total hit in pride to China if they purchaed Su-35S.

I disagree... they produce copies when the original does not suit them, or is too expensive or not on offer.

We will wait and see. So far, I have not seen anything substantial coming from China regarding about this purchase. I doubt it would ever happen simply because China is trying to push out the development of their so called "5th gen" jets. The only thing valuable that the Su-35S offers over the J-20 or whatever the other one is called, is its electronic systems and its engines. As good as Irbis-E is, it isn't AESA, and China is interested in AESA development and so far, Zhuk-A has not been offered to China.

GarryB

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Post n°112

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:45 am

There is far more to a good modern fighter... SAAB developed a net centric fighter in the form of the Gripen several decades ago, which suggests China should be able to too, but the Gripen has American engines and NATO weapons...

Viktor

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Post n°113

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Viktor Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:08 am

Coming to its logical end Very Happy

The contract for the supply of Su-35 to China could sign before the end of the year

MOSCOW, June 10 - RIA Novosti. Russia expects to sign an agreement with China to supply to the country of Su-35 to the end of the year, according to RIA Novosti CEO of the state corporation "Rostekhnadzor" Chemezov.

"In the second half of the year," - he said, answering the question of when you plan to complete the negotiations with China for the supply to that country Russian multi-purpose fighter Su-35. Chemezov declined to specify the possible amount of the agreement and the number of aircraft on which the negotiations.

According to media reports, China, Russia expects to deliver 24 Su-35 fighter. As reported in March, China Central Television (CCTV), the country has already signed a framework agreement for the supply of aircraft and submarines of class "Lada".

Su-35 - profoundly modernized super-maneuverable multi-role fighter of "4 + +". It uses fifth-generation technologies that ensure superiority over similar class fighters.

LINK

xeno

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Post n°114

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

xeno Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:30 am

good.
selling a rope to hang youself.

TR1

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Post n°115

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

TR1 Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:37 pm

xeno wrote:good.
selling a rope to hang youself.

How so?

Su-35S is export cleared, business is business.

GarryB

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Post n°116

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:12 am

Selling a flintlock to pay for the development of an assault rifle.

The Su-35 the Chinese buy will not have much in common with the Su-35 the Russian military buys... I rather suspect the Russians will allow the Chinese to use Chinese components where they don't want to export a more capable technology.

Besides... China will have a weapon system that Russia will be familiar with that will be useful to China in a potential conflict with the west... say over Taiwan or Japan.

sepheronx

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Post n°117

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

sepheronx Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:05 am

If it is fitted with AESA radar (even if Chinese) would make it more 5th gen than the one Russia is getting. The biggest thing for China from all this would be the engines.

TR1

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Post n°118

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

TR1 Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:08 pm

sepheronx wrote:If it is fitted with AESA radar (even if Chinese) would make it more 5th gen than the one Russia is getting. The biggest thing for China from all this would be the engines.

What AESA?

The Chinese have not demonstrated anything better than Irbis.
Russia has no NIIP AESA out yet. Irbis is excellent anyways, PESA is not inferior in every sense to AESA.

Generation talk is nonsense anyways.

AFAIK 117S is export approved item- so if the Chinese wanted it, they could have just bought a big batch of engines- no reason for Russia not to export them.
The fact they are buying this bird is a surprise to me, as I expected China to focus more on their domestic Flankers, even if not quite as capable as the Su-35.
This however brings up a lot of questions over the status of the J-11B-not just what we already suspected, that it is no Su-35.

Viktor

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Post n°119

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Viktor Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:46 pm

sepheronx wrote:If it is fitted with AESA radar (even if Chinese) would make it more 5th gen than the one Russia is getting. The biggest thing for China from all this would be the engines.

Russia and China are not enemies as "western" media would like them to be or is presenting them to be. In fact their relations have

never (in history) been better. Russia holds 4 bin$ in China engine orders alone and that money it can use to produce newer models and

modernize production. As of now, China is buying Russian planes, subs, engines, SAM, transport planes and other.

GarryB

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Post n°120

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:14 am

Generation talk is nonsense anyways.

Agreed... the fact is that getting a new aircraft into service and integrated into the service and support structure of your military, with aircrew and ground crew training in place and the planes operational takes time and money... the fact that it does not come out of the factory with AESA but PESA instead is meaningless... in 2 years time AESA modules will be in large scale mass production with elements costing tens of dollars per module instead of thousands of dollars for the first ones and hundreds of dollars for the next ones.

Getting the plane into service in numbers is the difficult and expensive part... giving it an upgrade in 3-5 years to fit an AESA would be a cheap and simple way to upgrade the aircraft and further improve its performance.

To be honest some half assed first gen AESA would be very expensive and would not be as useful as the mature PESA it is already fitted with... over time it would become better, but for the moment leave the baby in the womb till it is ready.

In this case testing a smaller array on a smaller aircraft to get all the kinks out and fix any problems makes a lot of sense (ie Mig-35).

sepheronx

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Post n°121

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

sepheronx Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:08 pm

The fact that Phazotron has demonstrated an AESA radar (even if it was only 600 T/R modules) proves that they can produce the modules. It is expensive, I know. But there is still talk about upgrading India's Su-30MKI's with AESA radar (so it is either Phazotron or Tikhomirov NIIP, and if Russia invested more in jets being upgraded in this technology, it would make it cheaper in the long run as it would drive the prices down. If it is so expensive, then how does Mikoyan expect the MoD in purchasing MiG-35's? Unless they are going to go without the AESA radar, which wouldn't make them MiG-35's then.

GarryB

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Post n°122

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

GarryB Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:23 pm

The fact that Phazotron has demonstrated an AESA radar (even if it was only 600 T/R modules) proves that they can produce the modules. It is expensive, I know.

They have already moved on from that radar and improved the electronics so the antenna can be moved further back in the nose making room for a larger array with just over 1,000 elements.

Of course they could produce them, but it doesn't make sense to make them in large numbers till the technology is mature.

Think of it in terms of light bulbs... 20 years ago LED lights were simply not an option to replace standard house light bulbs because in terms of technology they weren't developed to a point where they could offer any advantages... they would generate less heat and use less power but would be too dim to replace a standard light bulb effectively.

With investment and development and experience new LEDs are much brighter, don't generate much heat (wasted byproduct) and while they use a higher voltage they use much less current and therefore are cheaper to operate. They often also have very long life spans.

AESA in Russia is at the point where performance would be slightly better than PESA for the same size antenna, but the electronic processing needed and the radar elements themselves means an AESA radar with few advantages over a PESA would cost thousands of time more because it contains a thousand times more transmit and receive modules.

Right now it just makes sense to keep using mature PESA designs which are actually very good already and wait for AESA technology to get smaller and cheaper.

The new Gorshkov Frigate has four enormous radar arrays on its mast for the new Poliment radar system... a similar system for the S-400 and likely another system for S-500 will also be in development, and ground based and sea based platforms will also have AESA radars in development... they will unify the transmit receive module design, so instead of making 1,000 per aircraft they will likely be making 10,000 to 15,000 per radar array for Ships and large land based antenna arrays... such mass production will lead to design and manufacturing improvements and size and weight and cost reductions... like I said get the aircraft into service and then let the AESA technology mature before you start introducing it widely into service... there is no huge rush at the moment to warrant the expense of rushing them into service now.

The AESA radar in the Mig-35 is not made by Mig, it is made by NIIP and they have been working on AESAs for some time... getting them into service on Mig-35s is a good way to get them into service and into production and to work out the kinks and to learn about what they can or can't do very well. LPI and ECCM modes need to be learned...

Viktor

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Post n°123

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Viktor Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:51 pm

Further cooperation in progress

China is interested in technical assistance to Russia and the Ukraine in the creation of the nuclear aircraft carrier

Department Of Defense

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Post n°124

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Department Of Defense Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:43 am

Having a good radar is only part of the equation . You need to complement it with a state of the art EW system as well . Take a look at the ALQ 211

http://www.exelisinc.com/solutions/ALQ-211/Documents/ALQ-211-Family-of-Systems-Brochure-FXWNG-English.pdf

Does Russia has anything that is remotely close to this EW system ? Unless you are willing to step up the plate and identify the problems you cannot rectify the problem . And this applies to everyone regardless of whether you are American , Russian or whatever.

Viktor

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Post n°125

Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Viktor Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:06 pm

Beyond any doubt - Russia expects to sign contract at the Paris show

Russia may start shipping in China Su-35, confirmed Rosoboronexport

LINK

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