RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

Another unexpected sale. 

China will get 10 Il-76 from Russian stocks and Russia new Il-476

Russia will supply China 10 Il-76MD

Another article talking about the China Su-35 deal. The contract date and number of aircraft is still under discussion. What's new is that a service centre will also be established in China as part of the deal.

http://www.itar-tass.com/c594/774086.html

As always suspected I never thought China will settle for anything less than a 100 planes.

China's Su-35 fighter order reaches 100 wrote:

China will actually purchase 100 instead of 24 Su-35 advanced fighters from Russia, as put down in the new contract signed during the Paris Air Show 2013, according to the Moscow-based state radio broadcaster the Voice of Russia.

About 49 Russian aviation companies, including Sukhoi, Mikoyan, Ilyushin, Antonov and Rosoboronexport, attended the Paris Air Show held between Jun 17 and 23 at Le Bourget in the French capital. To celebrate the 50th anniversary of the air show, a Su-35S fighter flew its first demonstration flight outside Russia. Described as a 4.5 generation fighter, the Su-35S treated the visitors to a display of some impressive aerobatics during the first day of the air show on June 17.

The acrobatics was designed by Sukhoi to attract attention from potential buyers, China certainly among one of them. A deal was made on Nov 2012 when Russia agreed to provide China 24 Su-35 fighters with the advanced AL-31 engine. "Upcoming supplies of the Su-35 fighters to China are 'an open secret'," said a Russian official to the Voice of Russia.

"A decision to supply the Su-35 fighters to China was made long ago," added the official. "The parties are working hard to coordinate the financial and technical conditions of the future contract, which is due by the year's end. At present, the details of the contract are being specified." With the ability to detect air targets at a distance of over 400 kilometers and a combat radius of 1,600km, the Su-35 will dominate the Asia-Pacific sky until Japan and India receive their first fifth generation fighters by 2020, said the broadcaster.


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sepheronx wrote:Another rumor, that is all.

Su-35, as amazing as a jet it is, it is too late to the show.  Various reasons why Rafale and Typhoon and even F-15 sales are kind of lacking these days (first two having trouble) is because they are late to the show.  PAK FA will be ready in the next couple of years while being in production by 2020 and its variants.  Who would want a Su-35, when they could get a cheaper variant of PAK FA?

Su-35 deliveries can be started right away and it would be by far best fighter in its air force. With Su-27 China bought earlier, retiring, they need new fighters.

Because of situation in the region they desperately need 500 more fighters anyway and Su-35 is the best option they can have.

J-20 and J-31 will come in several or more years and will take time to build up the numbers. Su-35 - they can have right now.

For reasons above I think they should buy even more - 100 is not that high number.

I am not so sure Russia will be that keen to export PAK FA to China any time soon after its service entry in the RuAF.

Why is Russia selling its newest military hardware to China? Quite a suicidal move, considering that China has 10x bigger population, a quickly growing economy and a thirst for resources and new living space... Sooner or later it will either vassalize Russia or annex it altogether.

No it won't.

Nuclear weapons exist. Big armed forces exist. China taking over Russia is a wet-dream of American neo-cons, and no one else.

Russia is not selling China its latest weapons... they are selling Su-35s not PAK FAs.

The money they earn will make their own Su-35s cheaper and can be invested in making the PAK FA better.

Chinas huge population didn't help it in WWII against Japan, nor did it help in border disputes against Vietnam.

It helped for a short period in the Korean war but eventually they got into a stalemate.

GarryB wrote:Russia is not selling China its latest weapons... they are selling Su-35s not PAK FAs.

The money they earn will make their own Su-35s cheaper and can be invested in making the PAK FA better.

Chinas huge population didn't help it in WWII against Japan, nor did it help in border disputes against Vietnam.

It helped for a short period in the Korean war but eventually they got into a stalemate.

That reminds me, does anyone know any good documentaries on the Sino Vietnamese war??

As Sa'iqa wrote:Why is Russia selling its newest military hardware to China? Quite a suicidal move, considering that China has 10x bigger population, a quickly growing economy and a thirst for resources and new living space... Sooner or later it will either vassalize Russia or annex it altogether.

Because we will not give the ToT or production to copy it. China has proven inept at copying systems that require advanced manufacture techniques.

Actually Vladimir hit it on the head.

If China purchases Su-35, that shows they are still having major issues getting their domestic production/performance of say the J-11B up to snuff, despite having years of Flanker operation.
We already know their engine situation, or lack of it rather.

Buying already made Su-35s won't make them catchup overnight, but it does fund Sukhoi to improve.

I am very skeptical about this 100 number though.

I am very skeptical about this 100 number though.

It is still early days... I would expect the final number to be in the order of 300-400 with some of the technology being adapted for use in their stealth fighter... most likely they will buy a few hundred extra engines for their Su-35s if you know what I mean...

At the end of the day even 500 fighters will not make a huge difference to Russia, though for Japan and Taiwan and indeed the US Navy it is obviously a very serious concern...

A conflict between Russia and China will likely be mostly land based and if everything goes to plan with the reforms even a small Russian force will pack a powerful punch.

With Japan or Taiwan or the US Navy however aircraft will become important.

Imagine the US trying to pull another stunt with an EP-3 listening on Chinas border with an Su-35 flying along with them using a jammer pod all the way generating "noise".

Or indeed Taiwans position... buy F-35s? F-22s are not an option... and even if they were look at all the problems with them... I doubt the US would put brand new F-22s into production and then sell them overseas while its own airforce has the older less capable models... besides who can afford enough F-22s to be a viable force?

Vladimir79 wrote:
Because we will not give the ToT or production to copy it. China has proven inept at copying systems that require advanced manufacture techniques.

Do not understimate chinese abilities. Nowadays they are very quicly catch up their late regarding all areas, -the best super computer-, computer science, space technology, aircraft technology.
They are going to invest nearly 50 billions $, in order to solve the J-20's engine indigenous engine. They have the money, they have the know how, undoubtly China will become tomorow one among the main super power in the world, meanwhile US decline.

GarryB wrote:
A conflict between Russia and China will likely be mostly land based and if everything goes to plan with the reforms even a small Russian force will pack a powerful punch....

I don't believe anymore to a conflict between Russia, and China, I would say a possible and limited skirmishs with India is not impossible.
However noone could afford to another conflict in asia, between asian countries, as Russia is an asian country too.
Nevertheless a conflict against USA is highly possible, as US army is the main threat to the peace. Indeed, their declining empire will order a more agressive US behaviour against China, Russia, India.
Indeed, it is not a secret please read the The grand chessboard where Zbigniew Brzezinski did not hide any secret, by saying that US will have to confront China, Russia, in order to controll Eurasia.
The threat for Russia, India, Brasil, China is USA.
US involvement in chechenya's war is not a secret, as well as Georgia's war, in Xingiang's unrests, in Cashmire province, in Pakistan's destabilzation, etc.... as well the actual unrests in Brasil.
I don't say China will be an eternal Russia's friend, but nowadays they are allies, as allies, they will behaved as a fair partner.
The US setback in Syria is because of Russia, China, Brasil, India, all cooperates between them.

Else the 100 Su-35, I said it is because, China's J-20 indigenous fighter won't be ready for 2016 as they claimed, but a little bit later.
But do not make mistake, USA will not dare another war, as they have no money left, they are ruined. Brics countries now could offer a true alternative to US colonial empire, as it was when USSR offers to the third world countries in the end of 40. When Marshall Stalin had atomic bombs, and Mig-15 jet fighter.

nemrod wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:
Because we will not give the ToT or production to copy it.  China has proven inept at copying systems that require advanced manufacture techniques.  

Do not understimate chinese abilities. Nowadays they are very quicly catch up their late regarding all areas, -the best super computer-, computer science, space technology, aircraft technology.
They are going to invest nearly 50 billions $, in order to solve the J-20's engine indigenous engine. They have the money, they have the know how, undoubtly China will become tomorow one among the main super power in the world, meanwhile US decline.

I can make a super computer out of PS3s, it is no feat and no one has every verified Chinese computing power.  Computer science?  Their software is way behind even Russia.  Space Technology?  40 years behind.  Aircraft technology, they can't even make turbofans.  

$50 billion?  More like $1.5 billion.  Throwing a little money at the problem isn't going to fix it.  They can't even make SCB.  China will never overtake USA, much less Russia, until they learn to invent their own things.  They will always be behind the curve if they rely on copy.

Vladimir79 wrote:

nemrod wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:
Because we will not give the ToT or production to copy it.  China has proven inept at copying systems that require advanced manufacture techniques.  

Do not understimate chinese abilities. Nowadays they are very quicly catch up their late regarding all areas, -the best super computer-, computer science, space technology, aircraft technology.
They are going to invest nearly 50 billions $, in order to solve the J-20's engine indigenous engine. They have the money, they have the know how, undoubtly China will become tomorow one among the main super power in the world, meanwhile US decline.

I can make a super computer out of PS3s, it is no feat and no one has every verified Chinese computing power.  Computer science?  Their software is way behind even Russia.  Space Technology?  40 years behind.  Aircraft technology, they can't even make turbofans.  

$50 billion?  More like $1.5 billion.  Throwing a little money at the problem isn't going to fix it.  They can't even make SCB.  China will never overtake USA, much less Russia, until they learn to invent their own things.  They will always be behind the curve if they rely on copy.

Sorry Vlad, but i think you overstrech and underestimate China and why it is copying.

China is one of the last and most backwarded countries when you look at the military sector of all major military forces around the world, even if you look just few decades ago they weren't even an industrial country and they already catched up US just by their own economy and are not relying like USA on the fact that majority of the world is using the Dollar as the exchange currency which is the major incoming factor for US economy, however the point is that China doesn't copies because they suck at developing their own stuff, they are copying because developing own stuff, researching like US,Russia and lot of other coutnries before did, with dozens over dozens of failed projects which had insane huge budgets and just were wasted time and resources. China is about a point where it has soon catched up to keep a certain standard just by copying it just to have the military strentgh capability to be a threat or at least to be an opponent. The chinese aren't stupid they are very clever and they already start to develope own projects.

People underestimate China for the fact that they copy to catch up and totally ignore the highly advances and achievments for the military sector they do just in last 20 years.
We all will see in near future that lot of new inventions will be chinese.

Sorry Vlad, but i think you overstrech and underestimate China and why it is copying.

That's true.
I think Vlad over-stressed on the negative aspect of Chinese industry.

The problem with projections is they are BS.

A cell that reproduces once every half hour to double its number means one cell in a petri dish could have more bacteria than the entire mass of the earth in a few years... the problem is that that growth is because there is food and heat and no competitors.

If China ever gets too powerful the west... which is currently actively working against Russia because it sees it as its biggest threat, will start actively working against China... all those factories making cheap western goods for big western companies will move to Mexico or Mongolia or where-ever.

Another problem is that with all this work and economic growth the people in China are going to demand a better standard of living and workers rights and when that happens the very cheap labour force dries up and again western investment leaves and moves on.

China has made enormous progress in a very short time... but it is a large country with an enormous population and there was plenty of scope for improvement... and still is.

The problem is, however, that when you make big changes you don't solve fundamental problems you bypass them and eventually they will come around and bite you in the a$$. China relies on the US economy and the west for its markets as well as its technology... starting any wars will result in serious economic changes that will stop growth.

China has many problems... like any country has... and its future does not lie in conflict with its neighbours including Russia, though its growth will be opposed by the US which accepts no rivals and that might bring both countries to the edge of war, but neither country would benefit from such a conflict as China owns a lot of US debt and a serious conflict would make that worthless and cost China an enormous amount of money to no benefit.

The irony is that the US sees China as an enemy yet China is actually banking on the US to not collapse and eventually be able to pay them.

A Russian Chinese conflict is every right wing Americans wet dream and for that reason I doubt Russia or China will succumb to such stupidity.

China has the potential for great things... but I don't think world domination is one of them... only the greedy western white man craves this...  

The other problem with China is that if its economy stops growing and the crisis kicks in, it might collapse into a civil war, like Syria.

Popular uprisings against ruling elites are a Chinese invention, not a Western one. And they are much more common in China than in Europe (almost all Chinese governments since Han collapsed due to peasant rebellions) - In The West an economic crisis means that something is wrong and must be fixed. In China, on the contrary, an economic crisis is perceived by the population as a loss of Mandate of Heaven. That's why The Chinese were on the verge of industrial revolution a few times before Europe yet every time they collapsed into chaos.

They copy because they are smart, not because they are stupid.

Why spend extra time & resources repeating everyone else's mistakes?

But the problem is that if you only ever copy then all you end up with is your enemies technology at a later stage... so it is old enemies technology.

Reverse engineering is not as easy or as cheap as it sounds... Russia has sold lots of modern turbofan engines to China and China still cannot replicate them efficiently... they continue to buy from Russia.

The Engines and Avionics are the two difficult parts of an aircraft.

ricky123 wrote:there r lot of concerns here .first russia sells rd93 engines  which are not only used by chinese but also pakistan ..
now su-35 which will close the gap which india had over china with su30mki....
argument can be made that by the time this is delivered india and russia will have pakfa and fgfa .. but su30 is the leading fighter for india ..

also can u comment on the bold part of the article. if there is any truth in that . i think there is alot of curruption in india .otherwise all of those were bad deals ..
i personally feel after reading this india should pull out of the pakfa project before it is too late.. cuz india doesnt really need 5th gen fighter right now ..we should concentrate on amca and make it in india only ....
india pulling out of pakfa wont hurt russian project ..since russia is committed to that ...india should instead buy eurofighter and rafale in more numbers .....
any chinese 5thgen fighter can be countered with rafale

Simple .India switching sides to the western alliance thats why.

Buying into massive PAK-FA program = switching sides?

Russia's sales to China have never had anything to do with India, since they sold them a lot more a decade ago.