B.R.I.C.S. Discussion

They needed to set clearer requirements for new BRICS members first. Ethiopia is on the brink of the civil war.

I don’t think that the BRICS now and expanded, will have much of an effect because too many countries in the BRICS expanded have too much west influence.

The five BRICS nations now have a combined GDP larger than that of the G7 in purchasing power parity terms (a measure of what GDP can buy domestically in goods and services).

[However], in nominal dollar terms, which in my opinion is what matters, the BRICS countries are still well behind the G7. Combined, the BRICS bloc had a GDP of USD26trn in 2022, which is about the same as the US alone.

Who cares?

BRICS is not about having all the money, it is about working together despite China being a communist country and other countries being democracies, and having different religions and cultures, but trading and helping each other to develop and grow in the direction they want to develop and grow in, instead of being replications of the US and its laws and rules.

BRICS countries can have any laws about the death penalty or abortion or alphabet people they want and should not be pressured by other members to change their views.

The group is going to grow and develop faster than the stagnating western based G7, and with new countries that is only going to increase growth and development and lift weak economies up and help poor economies to develop and expand and give their people a better and more comfortable life for more of their people instead of a few rich people.

But even if that happens, the BRICS group will remain a much smaller and weaker economic force than the G7 imperialist bloc.

That does not matter, what matters is that BRICS is not an imperialistic bloc.

And the ruling elites in these countries are often at loggerheads (China v India; Brazil v Russia).

That does not matter, because they are not invading third countries or starting a fourth Reich like the G-7 is trying to do.

They are just a trading group that does not impose culture or politics or religion on other countries in the group.

As I have pointed out in previous posts, even though there has been a relative decline in US economic dominance globally and in the dollar, the latter remains the most important currency by far for trade, investment and national reserves. (...) multilateral institutions that could be an alternative to the existing IMF and World Bank (controlled by the imperialist economies) are still tiny and weak.

Any alternative starts out tiny and weak, til it gains momentum and US actions to stop it only encourage it to expand faster and faster, while G-7 nations are stagnating or going backwards... ironically in some cases because of the actions of the US... like the destruction of the Nord stream pipes delivering energy security to Germany and Europe... with friends like that...

The days of complete domination by the imperialist bloc under the US are over – because globalization ie unimpeded trade and financial flows of the last two decades of the 20th century, is over.

The point is that the US leads a block with money and military might and a demand for resources that a tiny third world country would need relations with if they want farm machinery or mining machinery or expertise, and consumer goods etc etc so they had to have relations with the west, but BRICS is creating an alternative block that wont make you open your markets exclusively to their predatory companies so they can make money on your resources while bribing a few top officials in your government leaving the rest of your country in poverty.

France was robbing Niger of its Uranium resources for peanuts at a time when 90% of Nigers population didn't have electricity... get some Russian or Chinese companies in there to develop their uranium resources and pay them what they are worth and that money alone could pay for all sorts of infrastructure and development for their country.

That is what BRICS offers and why more and more countries will want to join.

Six new countries at the start of next year and that is just the beginning because the more countries the more cooperation and trade and the more nation building... asian countries don't want to become the US, they want to become Singapore... law and order and comfort for more than just a few.

They needed to set clearer requirements for new BRICS members first. Ethiopia is on the brink of the civil war.

BRICS is not military and would not be obliged to send troops to help.

Membership of BRICS might help stability and allow the country to grow and develop... it is not like the existing BRICS members have no experience of civil wars and there would be a lot of advice available if requested.

I don’t think that the BRICS now and expanded, will have much of an effect because too many countries in the BRICS expanded have too much west influence.

The point is that previously progress demanded ties with the west because China on their own or Russia on their own could not provide the breadth and depth of trade to completely replace western countries for growth and development... but now they are together as BRICS there is more breadth and depth and also the lack of an active hand trying to hold you back and stop you from getting out of that third world box they put you in.

And it is not just them helping you, you can help them too... it is mutual growth and development.

caveat emptor wrote:They needed to set clearer requirements for new BRICS members first. Ethiopia is on the brink of the civil war.

Ethiopia's civil war ended, despite whatever attempts by outside actors to prolong it or keep trying to destabilise the situation. It was in any case just confined to part of the country.

And Ethiopia is the 2nd most populous country in Africa after Nigeria and a major friend of both Russia and China. Not a surprise at all that it was accepted.

flamming_python wrote:Ethiopia's civil war ended, despite whatever attempts by outside actors to prolong it or keep trying to destabilise the situation. It was in any case just confined to part of the country.

You're wrong. You're thinking about war with Tigray, which is indeed over. But, this is not what I was talking about. There's a constant strife in a region of Oromia, which is populated by biggest ethnic group in Ethiopia, and also in Amhara, which is one of the two major Habesha groups that basically made Abyssinia and later Ethiopian identity ( Amhara and Tigray). Those two groups are also main proponents of Tewahedo Orthodox Church. 
Unfortunately, Ethiopia is  ethnically very divided and tensions between ethnic groups are running high atm. I could also tell you that thing with Tigray is still not closed for a specific reason, but that would take too much space and it's not worth it. 
As for the country itself, outside of AA and Bahir Dar it is one of the poorest countries in the world. Great demographics (large and very young population) with very undeveloped provinces and big ethnic and systemic problems. 

In any case, it looks like Argentina is not certain, since both houses need to vote for it first and current president is on his way out. Other two main candidates are strongly opposing BRICS ( Milei is very libertarian and pro-USA and wants to introduce USD and recognize Taiwan and Bullrich is also conservative center right and, at the moment, has most votes in polling).

The two opposition candidates in Argentina spoke out against the BRICS. In case of winning, they will cancel the entry

They should have invited Algeria instead...

Indonesia was a perfect candidate, but they it is still too early for them. I expect to see them becoming members in the future.
In any case, we will need to see more BRICS cooperation agreements being signed to be able to judge real impact organization will have.
Building a currency clearing mechanism and setting up proper credit markets should be a first step, imo.

Getting Iran to commit is a big coup in of itself. Flipping Saudi Arabia and UAE is fucking insane.

You think OPECS+ was bad, wait till you see this monster that is the energy of the Middle East wedded to Russian hard power.

What was China thinking? You just handed the keys to this century to Russia

The energy weapon that did the Soviet Union in, is now going to be wielded by her successor to carve out her rightful place in history.

Pure poetry.

higurashihougi wrote:https://www.rt.com/russia/581826-west-not-welcome-brics/

Western countries not welcome at BRICS – Moscow

Only nations that do not enforce sanctions against the group’s members can be admitted, Russian Deputy FM Sergey Ryabkov has said

Speaking at a press conference following the BRICS summit in Johannesburg, South Africa, Ryabkov recalled that one of the key conditions for admittance to the group is “non-application of illegal sanctions against any of the members of the association.”

Meanwhile, Western states “are following exactly the opposite course, so there is no question of inviting anyone from this group not only to join BRICS, but even to participate in its events,” Ryabkov stressed, vowing to stick to this line.

Your country should be looked as prime candidate, along with Indonesia. What was the reason for Vietnam not applying for membership?

Did Algeria want to join?

The new members will mean that 80% of world oil export generating countries will be in one non-US-dominated organization.

kvs wrote:Did Algeria want to join?  

The new members will mean that 80% of world oil export generating countries will be in one non-US-dominated organization.

Yes.

lyle6 wrote:Getting Iran to commit is a big coup in of itself. Flipping Saudi Arabia and UAE is fucking insane.

You think OPECS+ was bad, wait till you see this monster that is the energy of the Middle East wedded to Russian hard power.

What was China thinking? You just handed the keys to this century to Russia

The energy weapon that did the Soviet Union in, is now going to be wielded by her successor to carve out her rightful place in history.

Pure poetry.

Every balance of forces in only temporary. Any such wedding will only last while the West is still a threat and on everyone's case.
Thankfully, the West is only too keen to continue digging themselves a hole.

The key for BRICS is to create a multipolar world and the international practices and structures to go with it, not to function as a bloc itself. That way humanity can actually evolve a little.

kvs wrote:Did Algeria want to join?  

The new members will mean that 80% of world oil export generating countries will be in one non-US-dominated organization.

Algeria wants to join. It probably will in the next round.

ArgentinaGuard wrote:The two opposition candidates in Argentina spoke out against the BRICS. In case of winning, they will cancel the entry

What's the mood on the street in Argentina?

Is there enthusiasm for a different, fairer world order in general, for de-dollarization, and for BRICS?
Because if there is, then the issue can turn out to be important enough for ordinary people for those opposition candidates to effectively disqualify themselves by voicing such opinions.

Or are people brainwashed into neo-liberalism and globalist values in general?

flamming_python wrote:

What's the mood on the street in Argentina?

Is there enthusiasm for a different, fairer world order in general, for de-dollarization, and for BRICS?
Because if there is, then the issue can turn out to be important enough for ordinary people for those opposition candidates to effectively disqualify themselves by voicing such opinions.

Or are people brainwashed into neo-liberalism and globalist values in general?

Bro, i don't think regular guy cares  much about that, honestly. Right now, people suffer severely because of high inflation. Check up the Milei guy. He is very unorthodox, to say the least. For him to get so much traction in the polls best describes how regular people think. Since 2018 country has been plagued by very high inflation and rising poverty. Scale of mismanagement is off the charts. When you look at general picture of the country, there's no reason not to thrive ( decent demographics, high education levels, good infrastructure, rich in commodities). I think that something like BRICS is a very abstract thing and hard to put at the first place in upcoming elections.

flamming_python wrote:
Every balance of forces in only temporary. Any such wedding will only last while the West is still a threat and on everyone's case.
Thankfully, the West is only too keen to continue digging themselves a hole.

Of the 3 superpowers only Russia shares the middle east's interest to extract as much value out of their energy resources as possible - everyone else wants to get that stuff as cheaply as they can. As long as this is true, they will always gravitate to Russia.

Only the west's then military superiority kept this natural partnership at bay. But now that Russia has demonstrated that the west isn't so powerful as everyone thought the Arabs and Persians have simply realized that it is far more profitable to have Russia as their military backer and antagonize the west than it is the other way around.

flamming_python wrote:
The key for BRICS is to create a multipolar world and the international practices and structures to go with it, not to function as a bloc itself. That way humanity can actually evolve a little.

We already have a useless big tent that everyone pisses in - its called the UN. BRICS was similarly useless, but with a couple members with overlapping core interests in the membership it might finally be useful.

But Vietnam did attend the BRICS summit and did express its interest in the development of the group.

Wait for it! 

Just like Algeria, Vietnam will join soon. In the meantime both countries are on such friendly terms with Russia that
a more formal "alliance" isn´t needed to make it clear to the rest of the world.

What was China thinking? You just handed the keys to this century to Russia

But the point of BRICS is not for China or India or Russia to take the crown of the USA... the point of BRICS is to lift everyone else up and bring yourself up to where most of your people can live in comfort and security, Russia does not want to expand at the cost of any other country and they don't want other countries to try to expand at the cost of Russia like Europe was trying to do by getting cheap resources from Russia while doing everything they could politically to keep Russia weak.

Look at the countries that made it... Argentina, Saudi Arabia and Iran... think that has anything to do with trade lines and controlling trade routes?

Your country should be looked as prime candidate, along with Indonesia. What was the reason for Vietnam not applying for membership?

The good thing about BRICS is that it is about free fair trade and growth and helping yourself and others to grow, so the more members become part of it the more options each member has for trade and cooperation and development.

But Vietnam did attend the BRICS summit and did express its interest in the development of the group.

And Vietnam has good bilateral relationship with two key members: China and Russia.

It would make sense to look and listen and make sure it is exactly what it appears to be before signing on, but I hope they realise that in this group they wont be told what type of government they can have and what laws they have to pass and what their preferred religion must be and that if you don't agree with Russia or China or India or any other country in the group then that is fine too.

Every balance of forces in only temporary. Any such wedding will only last while the West is still a threat and on everyone's case.
Thankfully, the West is only too keen to continue digging themselves a hole.

I hope they will set the ground rules to ensure what has happened with the west does not happen with BRICS or anything BRICS evolves into.

I am sure after WWII the Americans with their economically and militarily dominant position led them to think they will clean up these old colonial European countries and get them to follow honest democratic values... truth and justice was the American way... but somehow in their fight against Communism they turned into an imperial state worse than the Europeans all rolled together in the sense that they dominated everything and everyone with a few exceptions... Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, Iran you know the list...

The point is that BRICS is not supposed to gang up on anyone, so using it to damage western countries wouldn't work... if the west dropped all the sanctions it has imposed on all the countries of the world for whatever reason then there would be no good reason to not let them join too... but they wont because they can't... they wont give up power like that.

The key for BRICS is to create a multipolar world and the international practices and structures to go with it, not to function as a bloc itself. That way humanity can actually evolve a little.

Well said.

Before we had every man for himself where a man or a woman could become a billionaire because of the tireless work of others that they clearly don't share their income fairly with, there was the village and the clan and the extended family, where you worked together to survive and helped each other... because with everyone acting on their own selfish interests can't build a house on their own... you need someone to make and deliver parts, you need a car and a dishwasher and an oven and other things you can't make yourself... the roads you drive down and footpaths you walk on etc etc... you can't make it all yourself...

That is what it means by working from the shoulders of giants... it would take years to invent a coherent language that made sense and who knows how long to invent a number system that was actually useful and of course mathematics and physics and other things needed to do anything at all... you need teachers and parents and people to keep you safe and rules to follow etc etc.

The US consumer model of everyone for themselves is inhumane and it leaves 99% of the population living in a trailer park as a workforce to keep the 1% nice and comfortable.

Or are people brainwashed into neo-liberalism and globalist values in general?

That will be the problem... the pro west pro US brigade can't win on truth and logic so they will have to lie and steal and kill to win... and don't think they wont.

The western model means I don't give a shit about the average joe on the street, as long as I am in charge and I get the bribes and a comfortable future the entire population of my country can go screw itself.

Look at US politics... healthcare for everyone... call it communism and it fails. Call it Obamacare and no Republican will vote for it despite it meaning affordable healthcare for all Americans. I am not endorsing Obamacare BTW, I don't know anything about it other than it is for universal healthcare, which I know is a much better system based on what I have heard about what America already has.

We already have a useless big tent that everyone pisses in - its called the UN. BRICS was similarly useless, but with a couple members with overlapping core interests in the membership it might finally be useful.

The UN is a joke, but BRICS is not military and it is not intended to solve problems between states, it is more of a trade group mixed with a support group to help each other sort out internal problems with advice and expertise.

The countries in BRICS and joining BRICS are not perfect but they are joining to work together to get better without the occupation element you get from the west.

lyle6 wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
Every balance of forces in only temporary. Any such wedding will only last while the West is still a threat and on everyone's case.
Thankfully, the West is only too keen to continue digging themselves a hole.

Of the 3 superpowers only Russia shares the middle east's interest to extract as much value out of their energy resources as possible - everyone else wants to get that stuff as cheaply as they can. As long as this is true, they will always gravitate to Russia.

Only the west's then military superiority kept this natural partnership at bay. But now that Russia has demonstrated that the west isn't so powerful as everyone thought the Arabs and Persians have simply realized that it is far more profitable to have Russia as their military backer and antagonize the west than it is the other way around.

Which makes Russia and the Middle East natural competitors rather than business partners if anything

It's just that neither appreciates having their prices, protectionist policies, govt. models, etc... being dictated to by such an overly-entitled customer as the US & pals. Hence why they've banded up.

Truth be told though the Middle East will run out of oil within a decade or two, at least oil that's so cheap to extract. In anticipation of that they're focusing on establishing these new innovative economies right now, opening up, creating cosmopolitan and financial centers. In Dubai's footsteps are following Saudi Arabia, are following Qatar and Bahrain, etc..
And this means that they and Russia will have a lot more to offer each other rather than simply a cartel on prices and security co-operation. We already see it in fact with the development of Islamic finance in Russia, the relocation of Russian capital to Dubai, and constantly rising Russian food exports to the Middle East too.

flamming_python wrote:We already have a useless big tent that everyone pisses in - its called the UN. BRICS was similarly useless, but with a couple members with overlapping core interests in the membership it might finally be useful.

That's because the UN is being griefed by the same US & pals. In fact they've pretty much taken it over. Anyone who speaks out gets a beer bottle smashed over their heads.

You remove those anti-social elements from the equation and suddenly this sort of multi-national format is capable of crossing leaps and bounds in no time and achieving results

flamming_python wrote:
Which makes Russia and the Middle East natural competitors rather than business partners if anything

It's just that neither appreciates having their prices, protectionist policies, govt. models, etc... being dictated to by such an overly-entitled customer as the US & pals. Hence why they've banded up.

Competition implies a zero-sum game where the one side can only gain at the expense of the other - when in fact both sides only lose if they commit to drive down prices together by competing against one another.

For Russia, low energy prices is just an inconvenience, for the middle east it is fatal.

flamming_python wrote:
Truth be told though the Middle East will run out of oil within a decade or two, at least oil that's so cheap to extract. In anticipation of that they're focusing on establishing these new innovative economies right now, opening up, creating cosmopolitan and financial centers. In Dubai's footsteps are following Saudi Arabia, are following Qatar and Bahrain, etc..
And this means that they and Russia will have a lot more to offer each other rather than simply a cartel on prices and security co-operation. We already see it in fact with the development of Islamic finance in Russia, the relocation of Russian capital to Dubai, and constantly rising Russian food exports to the Middle East too.

All true, but security and energy are the bedrock upon which the world economic order sits. You want all that nice stuff you have to build a stable base first.

flamming_python wrote:
That's because the UN is being griefed by the same US & pals. In fact they've pretty much taken it over. Anyone who speaks out gets a beer bottle smashed over their heads.

You remove those anti-social elements from the equation and suddenly this sort of multi-national format is capable of crossing leaps and bounds in no time and achieving results

NATO achieves more stuff done in a lunch break than BRICS could in a month. Just saying.

Argentina’s BRICS membership in doubt as opposition rejects move

https://www.batimes.com.ar/news/argentina/argentinas-brics-membership-in-doubt-as-opposition-rejects-move.phtml

lyle6 wrote:Competition implies a zero-sum game where the one side can only gain at the expense of the other - when in fact both sides only lose if they commit to drive down prices together by competing against one another.

For Russia, low energy prices is just an inconvenience, for the middle east it is fatal.

You will note that they still compete for markets, even if they both agree to keep prices above a certain minimum

As of late they've agreed to co-operate on dividing markets between themselves it seems; by which I mean after the start of the SMO. But that's a temporary gesture in Russia's favour, given the sanctions laid upon it and the Gulf Arab's preference for a multipolar world rather than a US-dominated one.

NATO achieves more stuff done in a lunch break than BRICS could in a month. Just saying.

That's because it's all controlled by one country.

The point of BRICS is to provide an alternative to being dictated to. And yeah it takes some time to work out the kinks and the mechanisms and agree on the best way forward. No big deal. It's not a military alliance or an economic union as such, it doesn't need urgency or unanimity in everything.

BRICS, in the beginning, will mostly be about economic cooperation. For starters, they need efficient payment clearing and settlement mechanism. Also, they need to develop credit markets for government and commercial paper with enough liquidity, in order to sidestep USD system. This is harder part of the job.
NATO is a military alliance. Not at all same thing.