Russian Army ATGM Thread

d_taddei2 wrote:

Hole wrote:It seems the new version can´t be reloaded from inside the vehicle. The turret is fixed on top.

Yeah that's what I thought, I thought the design of retractable down into the vehicle was good idea not just for reloading. But disguising the vehicle as any other tigr vehicle which could be useful when in convoys, especially with drones these days picking off key vehicles. It also keeps vehicle profile low.

This is exactly the difference. ATGM version with twin independent launchers is clear ATGM. It could reload inside vehicle and it engage targets in frontal sector, not in 360^o. On long distance, tanks will not drive that quickly around it. This version with single fully rotating combat module with 4 missiles more reming on air defense complex like Gibka-S. They both are reloading from outside, but Kornet with range of 10 km, give longer range than Igla-S or Verba on Gibka-S. Interesting is radar antenna in frontal part of combat module, which is angeled to look upward, what is caracteristical for air defense complexes, not for ATGMs, which targets are on the ground. It also have data link and big monitor on the left side of operator, as it could be seen from the open door behind the journalist woman. This one will most probably use missiles with proximity fuse and will be used for protection against helicopters and UAVS for ATGM units, or together with Gibka-S to protect convoys. No doubt, it could use standard anti-tank missiles as well, it have standard Kornet launcher and EO guiding complex.

Couldn't they find another letter instead of the S used by russia for the krisanthema-S ? They copy even the name. It's not dangerous to use another letter like maybe X or M for missile.

Tigr is also well battle proven in real combat, from Chechnya to Syria...

This is the Kornet-D1. Launchers can be retracted. 8 + 8 missiles. In one of the "Combat approved" shows they showed how easy the driver or operator can replace the empty canisters with new missiles.


Same missiles/configuration. Taifun as base.

Some called the optics/radar + 4 missiles configuration on the BTR-MDM for the VDV a recon and command vehicle. Maybe the new Tigr-M bases version has the same job.

Roof with hatches

Inside

Reloading

Thanks Medo for posting that Arabic video.
The English version should appear soon on RT where it is called Kalashnikova show.
The presenter, Anna Kinishenko is cute.

That new Kornet turret is the version for the airborne (VDV).
Advantages and disadvantages vs the twin retractable turrets:
+ : Turret is more sturdy, can be rotated while driving
+ : Turret rotates full 360 degrees
+ : Turret takes little or no space inside vehicle where additional missiles can be stored
+ : Radar on turret can be used for reconnaissance and can be used to shoot at air targets
-  : Has only 4 ready to fire missiles vs 8 for the other model
-  : Missiles cannot be reloaded from inside the vehicle

New Kornet D1.

Nice... incorporating night and all weather capable radar with optics makes it more capable and able to operate when other systems are useless.

It would also probably allow targets to be detected and tracked in situations where other systems are not so effective either.

Same version as the one for the VDV.

So it has optics and radar... nice.

Hole wrote:Some called the optics/radar + 4 missiles configuration on the BTR-MDM for the VDV a recon and command vehicle. Maybe the new Tigr-M bases version has the same job.

Yes, I heard for recon and command vehicle designation. But few points doesn't went for it. This vehicle have crew of two, driver and commander/operator. Command vehicle need at least three crew members. Other thing is radar. It have circle radar antenna fixed in combat module, what show it is engagement, tracking radar and it is little angeled upward. Modern PESA/AESA technology give to that radar capabilities to detect targets in its sector of scanning. For recon porpouse it need surveilance radar, which could rotate or move on vider sector of surveilance, like Credo-1 radar. I would still say, this is more combat vehicle, that recon and command vehicle, only poprouse is different. Radar could detect smaller drones at longer distances that thermal imager.

I like these two different versions.

Both seem light and highly mobile, while one has two separate launchers each with four ready to launch Kornets... I wonder if that means they could also carry the smaller Bulat missiles... two per Kornet meaning potentially up to 8 per launcher ready to fire.

The effective range of these missiles should allow it to be used at effective standoff distances and in the ground to ground role the potent HEAT rounds should deal with any current armoured vehicles even if it requires a double tap of two missiles miliseconds apart riding the same laser beam to the same target.

In the HE role the range is extended to 10km and it can deal with drones relatively efficiently and effectively which makes it quite a versatile vehicle when plugged in to the local air defence network as well as the local battle management network where enemy armour formations are displayed and shared.

What I don't like so much about that launcher is that the optics are on the bottom as independent optics on an arm that can be raised and turned 360 degrees without getting in the way of the other launcher would give it the best arcs of fire.

These two separate four shot or 8 shot launchers probably have limited angles of fire... I suspect when engaging one target one set of missiles will be raised for the engagement so it has 360 rotation but it can only look in one direction at a time so you lose the capacity to have better threat coverage.... say with one set of missiles engaging enemy ground targets with HEAT missiles, while the other scans the air for enemy drones with HE rounds.

The other launcher I like the optics being extended upwards to the level of the missiles, and the radar seems to suggest night and all weather capability and perhaps also the ability to launch other missiles.

The round dome and the flat rectangular array below it suggest perhaps a radar and a datalink... when using Kornets it might not do much except a moving target might attract attention so zoomed optics can see well camouflaged targets, but the potential for missiles like Pine because it is laser beam riding too, but also Khrisantema with laser beam riding or radio command or SARH mmw radar homing options... but also with datalinks perhaps even LMUR type missiles could also be carried and fired where the datalink would allow the missile to be launched based on radar signals of targets at 10km plus ranges through heavy rain or snow with the missiles IIR seeker sending back a view of the target detected by the radar by its movement... when the missile gets within visual range it can send back a proper airborne view of the targets to be engaged and the operator can then select the target to be hit.

It might even be used for controlling drones operating ahead of the force spotting for targets out of line of sight the missiles can be launched towards and have the drones mark the targets for the terminal part of the attack out of line of sight of the launch vehicle.

Laser beam riding Kornets can't be stopped by DIRCMS... they have no optical port pointing at the target for the DIRCMS to dazzle and blind..., and because they are laser beam riding the aiming system essentially determines what they can be used against but they should be able to be used against practically anything... even if they have to be tracked manually.

Having tube launched missiles like Kornet, Khrisantema, SOSNA-R/Pine, as well as Verba and Igla-S and the new MANPADS called Mark or Label some sort of rotary launcher with tubes loaded on it that can mount different weapons could be rather interesting for ground and air vehicles.

Perhaps a launch position at the bottom of the rotary launcher with a ring the full radius of the rear fuselage of the UAV that is hollow through the centre, with perhaps 15-20 tubes around the circumference of the fuselage that can rotate around with a sheet metal cover/fairing around all the positions except the bottom two or three, so you can carry missiles in all sorts of combinations and rotate them round till they get to the 6 o'clock position for launching.

You could fire at air or ground targets, hard or soft... you could even mount 122mm unguided rockets in there too... in their own tubes...

It would be like a CAS UKSK launcher that could be loaded depending on the mission.

A big aircraft like an An-2 replacement could have an opening in the top of the compartment where tubes from inside the aircraft could be loaded, so you might have large numbers of missiles available per mission... perhaps even the new bombs designed for UAVs as well... or RPO rockets and RPG-29 rockets and SPG-9M rockets....

The students of the 5th course of the Mihailov Military Artillery Academy in the composition of the anti-tank missile complex "Kornet" destroyed the armored technical conditional opponent in the study of the Luzhen Polygone district.

Well considering the threat I would ask how many obsolete ATGMs they have in storage, because swapping out the HEAT warheads for HE frag warheads would allow them to be used against any visible drones for the price of using up old stocks of missiles.

Something like this vehicle (the VDV one with the radar and presumed powerful optics) should allow guidance of a range of missile types and if you track the outgoing missile and the target you should be able to command detonate an old wire guided or command guided missile at a useful distance from the target where a blast of ball bearings would shred any drone and yet be non lethal at distances of more than 20m, making it not dangerous to friendly forces or civilians in the area.

With rocket pods I would say the laser homing versions would probably be best for engaging enemy drones with obviously a laser target marker highlighting targets with little or no radar or IR signature.

57mm rockets would probably be best because you wont need a powerful warhead... if you can get the warhead close enough to the target before the warhead is set off then even a relatively small HE frag warhead would do.

Some sort of coded laser beam that perhaps flashes a specific code to set off the warhead as it approaches the target could be used instead of a proximity fuse to set off the payload close enough to the drone... most small light drones are rather fragile so a barrage of ball bearings shattering the small drones structure and more importantly its props should bring it down every time.

It would be relatively cheap and effective enough.

I would say your own drones with EW jammers mounted on it together with a 40mm grenade launcher with command detonated grenades would be very useful too.

Even when used against ground targets command detonated grenades would be useful.

Russia made anti-air versions of ATGMs in last time. First was special version of Ataka ATGM with HE-frag warhead and proximity fuse, which is used by helicopters and on the ground by BMPT and Uran-9 robot. Krizanthema is also meant to engage slow and low flying targets and they made new missiles with extended range to 10 km, so they could modify thermobaric version to be able to engage flying targets. Now we see this with Kornet missile.

Why would they go for anti-air version of missile?. One reason is laser guidance of missile, so it is cheap and simple for production and second is price. Kornet missile according to Wikipedia, cost 6.230 $ in 2012. on the other hand Igla MANPAD cost 60.000 to 80.000 $ in 2003. Igla-S and Verba are most probably more expensive. IR homing head is more expensive. So for the price of one Igla MANPAD, you could get 10 Kornet missiles. To engage drones, Kornet is more cost effective. Other reason is the size. Sosna is bigger and is placed on BMP-3, MT-LB or BTR-82 vehicle, while Gibka-S and Kornet-D1 are placed on Tigr-M or Typhoon-K 4x4. Smaller and faster vehicles, more suitable for convoy protection and fast deployments.

I think changings in tactics and drone engagements were reasons to create this different version of Kornet-D1, for anti-tank warfare standard twin launcher version is good enough.