Is Russia safe from F-22 and Β-2?

^^^ Not to mention spending its resources and going bankrupt.

Some say the oil find in the US is worth $200 Trillion. That is huge amounts of money. The oil prices hovering over $70/barrel means extraction would be profitable for the US. Include that in calculations regarding various geopolitics topics in the coming decades.

Economics is fickle. Lack of US oil imports will reduce prices and it might become uneconomical for them to extract all this oil.

If oil prices get high enough you can extract oil from coal and both New Zealand and Russia has an abundance of Coal they could produce oil from if the price was right... NZ would have billions of dollars worth and Russia trillions or more, but it stays in the ground till the price goes up...

Russia: If oil prices go down Russian economy will be in a deficit.

And if the price goes down US extraction becomes uneconomical and the price goes back up again...

China: Several credit and pension type bubbles in vastly bloated economy. Their best hope is US demand is robust to keep them employed in factories.

Rubbish, there are plenty of markets that will buy cheap goods... Asia and Africa are two markets... in addition to Chinas own internal market...

India: Vast internal inefficiencies, corruption, pollution, population hamper growth, infrastructure is 30 years behind the world, no mega export type industries, that country is just sustaining along some how.

A large country with enormous potential and human resources. Greatly increased investment in infrastructure and education and they will rise up as a powerful nation.

So if 21st century is American century again, then be ready for owners of MNCs in your countries to be implementing their rules and any resistance to that would create tensions and tussles of sorts.

Only Americans talk about American centuries. That sort of arrogance will be their undoing. They have forgotten their core values and are just bullies now... it is only a matter of time.

In late 90s after Serbia war, Russia wanted to make an alliance with China and India to have some solid backing against the NATO. Both China and India declined.

Clearly you think they meant a military alliance... do you not read mention of BRIC, or BRICSA?

It is an economic and political alliance between Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa... and there are more than a few other countries that want to join too. Their goals include to stop using non BRICSA currencies in trade between each others countries, and to support each others banks and currencies... the US dollar is built on being the international currency of trade...

China is extremely selfish country and India is meek nation lacking will power to overcome its own internal problems.

Like most normal countries they have their own interests and they don't seek to get involved in things that don't concern them. NATO and the US are the exception and want to act as the worlds police force, but because they are selective in the rules they enforce and only act when their own interests are threatened they are not so much a police force as a brute squad, or lynch mob.

Of course you are not Chinese(Neither am I) and are outsider who gets his/her info about China from BBCs and CNNs of the world. I would say you have no real clue about China.

Very strongly agree here... some say China is a backward nothing that just copies and will always be behind, others claim that the rate of improvement will continue and they will flash past the US and the West and will be our overlords in 30 years time.

I tend to think they are both wrong and that China started a bit behind and is making every effort to improve and I wish them every success. I don't think a strong China is as dangerous as a strong west and strong US has been so far.
I think a strong India and a strong China and a strong Brazil and Russia and South Africa and many other countries is a good thing and should be encouraged... not ruthlessly crushed like the US and west seem to wont to do.

India : India will not want its alternative supplier out of the picture ( they are feed up with U.S pressure about Iran and Kashmir) so to show the West that its not its toy, India will help Russia with hopes of more contracts in return..

Despite rejecting the Mig-35 a large portion of the Indian Air Force has Russian origins... the same for the tank fleet if not more so.

Sometimes there is little between customer and seller, but the relationship is rather more than just that between India and Russia. They have their spats but that is normal... I see a contract to sell submarines to Indonesia has hit a bump because the South Koreans are asking for more money to complete a three submarine deal, so it can happen to the best of them...

The other consideration for China and India is that if the US did attack Russia then they are not safe either and it would be better to fight the US on the side of Russia than ignore it and risk having to fight the US alone later... of course the US will not commit suicide and attack Russia in the first place so the whole idea is moot anyway.

Plus if China was selfish , why does it help the U.S by buying their debt, when no one else wants too.

Indeed China has very much tied itself to the US and if the US goes under they will lose an enormous amount of money.

Also what country isn't selfish? The US has had the money to solve the problems of the world... poverty, hunger, disease etc etc yet it does not do all it can to help... how selfish... when was the last time it did something that wasn't in its interests? Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, etc etc... had nothing to do with the Korean or Vietnamese or Cuban people... it was a fight against communism.

When the Soviets left Afghanistan all the money for those poor Afghans dried up overnight...

Because US is powerful and buys ship loads of Chinese goods.

Rubbish. The US buys lots of Chinese goods because the US is a consumer society that runs best when things are cheap and disposable. 40 years ago here in New Zealand if something broke you had it fixed. These days you throw out perfectly good stuff because you don't use it anymore. Things have changed and not for the better...

Without US demand, China would be in a much worst shape.

It has nothing to do with demand and everything to do with greed. By shifting production to China you can make more profit and avoid additional expenses like healthcare. The west invested in China to save money, and the Chinese used those factories as models and started making more that made western stuff in western designed factories at bargain basement prices.

In 20 years, it is said that Africa and its mineral resources will become a hot economy while China and India will somewhat cool off after reaching some middle level of economics.

That is funny because China is investing a lot of money in Africa... both have enormous growth potential... as long as they don't listen to western economists that seem to always suggest the west will remain dominant... interesting that really.

Only then I will take your statements of US taking on Russia seriously.

The MAD doctrine applies... there is nothing the US could possibly gain from an attack on Russia that will make the resulting nuclear devastation of the US and Russia worth it.

What about bubbles in US accounting books.

The US accounting system of hiding debt has created the current economic problems but I am sure it is Chinas fault...

US is clever, it wants to break Russia the way it broke off the USSR....i.e. by itself. All sorts of pressure, economic isolation, sanctions against allies and attacking them etc. etc. are the steps in the direction of breaking Russia up.

The US is dumb... it is like a soldier poking a detonator with a stick because he wants to kill the guy sitting on the 1,500kg bomb the detonator is attached to that his enemy is sitting on.

The US doesn't know how to share, it wants everything. It respects no one yet demands respect from everyone.

With the mighty US Army in Afghanistan, how come they can't control the drug flow. Because they have openly rejected to do so. This is one example of how to kill a nation from inside.

The thing with drugs of course is that if they can't get one they will get another, or make it themselves.

The US wont be in Afghanistan forever and border security needs bolstering anyway..

That is true but the U.S is also killing its own men in the process...

The huge irony is that the farmers make peanuts on their drug crops, it is the middle men that make the big money... and in this case the middle men are the Taleban... wonder what they do with all that money?

If oil prices get high enough you can extract oil from coal and both New Zealand and Russia has an abundance of Coal they could produce oil from if the price was right... NZ would have billions of dollars worth and Russia trillions or more, but it stays in the ground till the price goes up...

In 2004 the Governor of Montana wanted to create the coal to oil industry from the coal deposits in his state. That time price was estimated at $55/barrel. Do not know what the price would be now. It is also not too good for the environment in certain ways. Btw, just heard that India car maker that came with $2K small car is soon going to come with a compressed air car which will travel 300Km on $2 worth of compressed air. Top speed 105kmh, inventions like these can be really good for the climate and third world economies.

The huge irony is that the farmers make peanuts on their drug crops, it is the middle men that make the big money... and in this case the middle men are the Taleban... wonder what they do with all that money?

The American logic is if farmers do not grow poppy then they will turn to Taliban and become monthly paid soldiers. However, US does not want to invest into industries that would employ these villagers and give them some skill and self esteem. US is being a fool thinking that all the coke/opium is going to Russia only. A big majority is also ending up in western Europe and some of it even in the US.

The US wont be in Afghanistan forever and border security needs bolstering anyway..

Within 6 months after US has left, the Teliban will be back and it will be back to square one regarding Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan and region. US might have to end up denying any entry to folks from Afghan, Pakistan etc. Might be little harsh but only way to keep the terror out. Sarkozy today suggests imprisonment for anyone who even visits the AQ propoganda type websites. That makes some sense although might be difficult to implement.

Guys, might I recommend moving this discussion to the International Politics section? None of this has anything to do with Russia and the F-22.

Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:Guys, might I recommend moving this discussion to the International Politics section? None of this has anything to do with Russia and the F-22.

do the prices of oil and commodities and global relations have anything to do with Russia, F22 and Pakfa?

Think and grow rich!

victor7 wrote: do the prices of oil and commodities and global relations have anything to do with Russia, F22 and Pakfa?

Think and grow rich!

If that's what this thread is about, then the whole thing should probably be moved to the International politics section.

The F-22 was originally conceived to be used against the old Soviet Union, was it not? I am curious as to how it was "supposed" to be used. Any one?
Obviously, present Russia is quite different from the USSR.

Infact B2 bomber and F-117 were made for the USSR. F22 is a meaner and more efficient form of F117 which was subsonic I think.

The cold war ended officially in 1991 but in true sense it never did from the side of the US. What their goals are have been discussed above. Russians went on a holiday in the 90s and when they came back they found the fences of the house encroached upon and house looted to the bare walls.

The arrogantly rude demeanor and haughty but shallow confidence of the US has at times in the recent past brought world to the brink of madness and destroying all what it took 10 decades to build........in just ten minutes. Worst is in this process of bullying others they are weakening the good part of their traits that rest of the world can follow and benefit from.

Thats a harsh way of putting things (although true). The Russians didn't go through what they did in the 90's by choice, did they? And besides, Russia has evolved. Its economy is strong and growing. Previously they had a massive debt, now it is virtually non-existent.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f44/17/24/29/03/34704010.jpg

And besides, Russia has evolved. Its economy is strong and growing. Previously they had a massive debt, now it is virtually non-existent.

It is only the oil and commodity prices that have brought Russian economy to what it is today. Once the energy prices hit their down cycle then Russia will again be in no man's land. The energy down cycle from 1980s plus Afghan war brought USSR to bankruptcy by late 1980s. Rest is history.

Russia has not diversified or added a sector to its economy that would earn them side revenues.

This is what I do not like in democracy. Everyone gets to express their opinions and vote and result is Boris Yeltsin types in power. His crony men looted Russia to bare bones. When people were starving in the country with largest land area, how ironic!........... at that time his men were sending good $3-4B a month to outside banks and safe havens. Putin barely put a cover to that but candidly could not do much to retake the looted funds. Hence Russia is 15 years behind on an answer to F22 and no one knows how many more years after 2015 when we actually see Pakfa in the forces.

It is only the oil and commodity prices that have brought Russian economy to what it is today. Once the energy prices hit their down cycle then Russia will again be in no man's land. The energy down cycle from 1980s plus Afghan war brought USSR to bankruptcy by late 1980s. Rest is history.

With the Iran sanctions ( plus all the usual global meddling by the US ), oil prices are not going to go down any time soon. And I'm sure Russia will be quite well prepared for any such scenario.

Hence Russia is 15 years behind on an answer to F22 and no one knows how many more years after 2015 when we actually see Pakfa in the forces.

Don't forget that one of the main considerations for the Advanced Tactical Fighter program in the 80's ( from which the likes of YF-22 and YF-23 sprang ), was the introduction of the Mig-29 and the Su-27. Those two aircraft form the mainstay of the current Russian air-force. Besides, the Russian air-force, which is one of the best and among the largest in the world ( second largest fighter fleet ), is backed up arguably the best air-defense network in the world.

Somehow, I don't think the PAK-FA is intended as just a Raptor-killer.

victor7 wrote:

And besides, Russia has evolved. Its economy is strong and growing. Previously they had a massive debt, now it is virtually non-existent.

It is only the oil and commodity prices that have brought Russian economy to what it is today. Once the energy prices hit their down cycle then Russia will again be in no man's land. The energy down cycle from 1980s plus Afghan war brought USSR to bankruptcy by late 1980s. Rest is history.

Russia has not diversified or added a sector to its economy that would earn them side revenues.

This is what I do not like in democracy. Everyone gets to express their opinions and vote and result is Boris Yeltsin types in power. His crony men looted Russia to bare bones. When people were starving in the country with largest land area, how ironic!........... at that time his men were sending good $3-4B a month to outside banks and safe havens. Putin barely put a cover to that but candidly could not do much to retake the looted funds. Hence Russia is 15 years behind on an answer to F22 and no one knows how many more years after 2015 when we actually see Pakfa in the forces.

True, that Russia use well oil and gas money to pay off debts, to make the third largest gold and money reserves and invest large sums in industry, agronomy and also tourism. In nineties Russia have to import food, now they are one of the largest food exporters. They have large reserves of clean water. They build new industry, which production grow (military industry included), build new power plants and export electricity, etc. They have large natural resources in land, forests, metal and non metal cores, etc. The point is that Russia is no more so much dependent on oil and gas as it was 10 years ago.

Industry revival enable Russian MoD to enlarge orders and industry to fulfill contracts.

I would have liked to agree with you Medo, but as for now no clear and substantial alternative to energy as the source of revenue. Agriculture offers potential because demand from China and India is very robust but nothing meaningful at the moment.

Rest of the items that you discussed are to do with natural reserves just like oil and gas, nothing man made or cultivated.

oil prices are not going to go down any time soon

Energy and commodities cycle is on the uptrend well into 2016 and may be even 2018 to 2020. Biggest threat is not the demand but the invention of alternative sources.

No need to worry. Amerika not gonna fight a totalitarian war against Russia, they aint that crazy... Tzar Putin have already stated that any conflict bewtween Russia and the "west" Russia will use first strike nuclear capability inorder to defend itself from western aggression. He have made this clear by the removal of iirc a legal document that prevent russia from using first strike.....He also made this clear during the 2008 war that if US forces enter as combatants he will desimate them with tactical nukes!

Now that we speak of is totalitarian war...Lets talk about a hypothetical limited war between US and Russia:
1. F-22 dont have range to reach Russia
2. They will be shot down by Mig-31's if they do
3. They would not be able to penetrate the integrated SAM networks(Long rage, medium rage, short range, very short rage {point defence}) and very strong EW battle ground that russia would inaddition to the density of the SAMS.[b]In order to lauch an attack against your opponent effectively you :
1. Must be able to accept high casualties as they have already dug in
2. Have a large force that outnumbers your enemy 3:1
Neither of which is prensent wrt F-22's

A more probable senario is Russian and American technology clashing in the Third world or the Eastern region


Lets talk about if instead of Mig-31's intercepting raptor , Sukhoi PAK FA did. reasons why the PAK FA is victorious:
1. RCS- PAK FA fuselage closely resembles that of the YF-23, build by Norththrope which had :
a) Better Manueverability than Raptor
b) Better RCS than raptor(which totally opposite of what all analyst say)
2. Longer range and armament
3. May have data links with Modern Russian SAM newtorks and radar stations and thus would be able to track F-22's
4. Longer missles
Reason for F-22 :
1. Radar- AESA is much more powerful and thus better BVR capability
2.ECM/EW suit- May jam missiles and equipment
3.AWACS- acts like S&T radars for f22s
4.Supercruise- harder for missles and IRST to get lock on if afterburner not in use....I dunno though if it got eat absorbant tiles in the exhaust :?

I think it would be an even battle, which as such comes down to skills of the pilots in the end...We know who have better pilots than third world nations

The stealth aircraft the US built were necessary because of the performance of the S-300 and other SAMs and the fact that the Mig-29, Su-27 and Mig-31 were every bit as good as western equivalent fighters in practical terms.

The Soviet pilots might have to operate more switches but the end result is that the performance of their weapons was comparable to NATOs stuff during the 1980s.

The purpose of cruise missiles and ballistic missiles and stealth was to try to defeat the Soviet Air Defence system.

The Russians started their new democracy with few international ties and few products in demand internationally. Most of their industries suddenly lost their Eastern Europe market and most of the rest of their traditional markets had never been in great shape previously because they too were generally shunned by the west.

Welcome to the international community for ditching communism eh?

Without WTO membership trade with Russia is difficult, but then WTO membership will also bring international competition that will crush many Russian businesses anyway... so its delay has allowed Russia to group up its industries into entities that might have a better chance of survival when direct international competition comes.

As mentioned Russia has made great strides in agriculture despite limitations due to climate, and it has to be said that in terms of international trade that defence is increasing its share.

Russia has weaknesses and is working on them and while they wont get fixed overnight they are being dealt with.

Rest of the items that you discussed are to do with natural reserves just like oil and gas, nothing man made or cultivated.

I think you are not getting it in the proper way. Increase in agronomy production also make increase in food industry production with new elevators, bakeries, meat industry, milk industry, etc. Now there is more than 7 billion people on our planet and lesser food, so Russia will quite soon make more money with food and bottled clean water export than with oil and gas.

Large natural reserves only means, that Russia doesn't need to import anything, they all have at home, so their products could be cheaper than others. Their industry production is also growing, be it electronic industry, car industry, shipbuildings, aircraft industry, cloth industry, etc. At now industry is more oriented on internal market to become self sufficient state, what now in times of global financial crisis is the best and only right solution. In few years Russian economy will be far stronger than western one, because they have small debt, large reserves and strong real economy, which make real money.

Air International Feb 2012

F-35: The Good , The Bad and The Ugly
F-22: Raptor Reality

http://www.mediafire.com/?78nhv7t0ai915xl

Thanks for that Austin, will give it a look.

(BTW not written by Carlos Kopp is it... )

Of course at least Kopp knows what he is talking about unlike his equivalents like Felgenheur...

This


And This:

Well after reading that article on the F-22 I am far less impressed by it than I was before.

32 bit 25MHz processing power? That is 486 level stuff!!!

Can't carry AIM-9X sidewinder missiles!

That means in a close in turning fight that even a 1980s Mig-29 has a good chance against it with its superior helmet mounted sight and R-73 missile.

And lack of transmit in terms of data links is very good for stealth, but bad for usefulness because it means that with its super radar and ability to fly deep into enemy territory in most countries unseen it wont be able to share the information about the targets it sees...

In terms of politics it seems that the US politicians have decided to back the F-35... which could be a serious mistake as while it is not an optimised fighter that really doesn't matter as the US never fights fair in air to air anyway... big countries with capable Air Forces like China, Russia and India will simply not be attacked while smaller countries like Afghanistan wont need fighters, and countries with potentially competitive fighters will be attacked with cruise missiles first to weaken them and then large numbers of fighters will be used to overwhelm them.

I think the makers of the F-22 have realised this and are attempting to make the F-22 a multirole aircraft rather than a one trick pony.

The F-22 is not a dogfighter, it was supposed to be a high flying supercruising sniper that hit targets at long range... it achieved long range with its missiles because it was launching the missiles from high altitude at high flight speeds which extended its missile reach, while its high flight speed allowed it to fly towards the target and launch and then turn away to stay out of reach of the lower and slower enemy fighter... preferably with that lower and slower fighter never even realising it was under attack.

If it entered service in 1990 and they made 750 then it would have dominated like the F-15C has dominate the combat zones it has operated in. It is however a case of too little and too late because against enemy fighters that use stealth means there are other snipers up there and their weapons have even greater reach than the F-22 does, and more importantly they have sensors like IRSTs that can use different frequencies that extend the detection range of their systems so they can see further than the F-22 can under certain conditions.

If neither spots the other till they are very close then it comes down to dogfighting... where the F-22 will likely come up short... even against an Su-35.

Regarding those two videos gloriousfatherland just posted, they were amusing and largely accurate, but it is important to keep in mind that with regards to the first video that most aircraft have problems, and corrosion and metal fatigue are constant problems for all aircraft and vessels.

I wouldn't write the F-22 off as an incapable fighter, but with the benefit of hindsight... which the Russian engineers have in developing the PAK FA... they pretty much built the wrong aircraft.

A smaller, cheaper simpler aircraft paired with an even more attack/bomber oriented F-35 probably would have resulted in a more useful balance.

Regarding the second video you need to keep in mind that the vast majority of the countries of the world can't afford to buy and maintain the sort of integrated air defence network the Russians and to a lesser extent the Chinese have, so the ability of the US and NATO to bully little countries will not be as effected as they try to imply.

BTW regarding corrosion issues... what is wrong with these engineers?

It is basic physics that you put different metals together with water and electrolysis will greatly accelerate corrosion...

I would say Mig-31BM and Su-35 will be more than enough against F-22. Both have big and strong PESA radar, capable IRST and data link as well as new long range missiles and ECM suit.

Corrosion could be a big problem for F-22 and F-35, because corroded parts could reduce stealth caracteristics and I don't know if they could use anti corrosion colors and RAM coat. Usual non stealth planes could normally use anti-corrosion colors and normal colors after them, because that will not change much its RCS, but I'm not sure if the same could do stealth planes.

I don't know how much it is true, but I read somewhere years ago, That F-117 have to avoid clouds and rain, because water reduce its stealth capabilities.

medo wrote:I would say Mig-31BM and Su-35 will be more than enough against F-22. Both have big and strong PESA radar, capable IRST and data link as well as new long range missiles and ECM suit.

Corrosion could be a big problem for F-22 and F-35, because corroded parts could reduce stealth caracteristics and I don't know if they could use anti corrosion colors and RAM coat. Usual non stealth planes could normally use anti-corrosion colors and normal colors after them, because that will not change much its RCS, but I'm not sure if the same could do stealth planes.

I don't know how much it is true, but I read somewhere years ago, That F-117 have to avoid clouds and rain, because water reduce its stealth capabilities.

I read that exact same thing, and from a engineering point of view it sounds plausible

- Finally i have some freetime after three ot four days literally hellish at work.

Well after reading that article on the F-22 I am far less impressed by it than I was before.

32 bit 25MHz processing power? That is 486 level stuff!!!

Can't carry AIM-9X sidewinder missiles!

GarryB some two years ago i pointed out, in a debate on another site, that one of the main reasons for F-22s being prohibited by USAF to engage in WVR/near WVR's missile engagements in pasted international exercices with foreign Air Forces (to the contrary to the internal "staged" ones where USAF can do and.... claim what it want) was that the Raptor lacked even only the basis weapon suit -signally HOBS missiles- to fight similar engagements at even with its opponents.
You cannot even imagine what was the hysterical reactions to this simple reality 's attestation : Raptor, incapable to employ AIM-9X still in 2010 ? (a missile,moreover ,designed with the aim to attempt to close the wide gap with....basis R-73 !! ) A true blasphemy for the horde of ignorant, fanatical zombies ,loving to live in theirs immaginary Hollywood-like world.



In reality the quick U-turn on the permission to F-22 to participate in international WVR exercices with missiles engagements was ,likely, son of early bad exeperiences (naturally urgently covered under a thick mist in majority of media).
In this extract from the article of “International Air Power Review “ - 2006 - issue 20, page 45 this appear clear :

"more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long rate. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BVR engagement was canceled, and the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more."

"When this incident was reported on a website frequented by front-line RAF aircrew a senior RAF officer urged an end to the conversation on security grounds"

To prevent the repeat of a similar awkward scenario against another highjly advanced aircraft equiped with HOBS missiles , in the last DACT exercices against French Rafale USAF allowed F-22 to participate only in WVR gun engagement .

[/quote]

To prevent the repeat of a similar awkward scenario against another highjly advanced aircraft equiped with HOBS missiles , in the last DACT exercices against French Rafale USAF allowed F-22 to participate only in WVR gun engagement .

[/quote]
if its red flag ur talking about, i heard the frenchies just went to spyzzz on le american radars