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These are massive and unprecedented news in my view, this is basically an ultimatum from Russia to NATO, not less...US is currently being presented the terms of their WWIII capitulation 
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Russia - USA Relations
LMFS- Posts : 5169
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mnztr- Posts : 2910
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Hmm Suddenly NATO seems to be willing to talk about providing Russia assurances. Its amazing how 70K heaily armed troops focuses the mind.
Arrow- Posts : 3506
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They will get guarantees that they will break anyway and not obey. Just like most treaties and agreements. Russia's only guarantee is their military power and the development of new weapons.
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LMFS- Posts : 5169
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Arrow wrote:They will get guarantees that they will break anyway and not obey. Just like most treaties and agreements. Russia's only guarantee is their military power and the development of new weapons.
It doesn't matter that the West is unwilling to cooperate. The important thing here is that ultimatums are made just out of a position of strength and this one signals that in the view of the Eurasian powers, the game is basically over. They are showing the West the dotted line by which they will fold, sooner or later, with more or less pain and obviously with better or worse terms, depending on how much more they delay and resist it. Of course you cannot count on EU retards or rabid neocons to understand this just now, but it does not matter in the end, their situation is desperate on most fronts and they will fold.
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GarryB- Posts : 40574
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Even if HATO agreed and signed something... how much would that be worth... they are still the enemy.... by their own choice...
I would not expect much of anything from them at all and the more Russia looks elsewhere for everything they want and need the better for Russia.
I would not expect much of anything from them at all and the more Russia looks elsewhere for everything they want and need the better for Russia.
mnztr- Posts : 2910
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GarryB wrote:Even if HATO agreed and signed something... how much would that be worth... they are still the enemy.... by their own choice...
I would not expect much of anything from them at all and the more Russia looks elsewhere for everything they want and need the better for Russia.
We don't know what was in the Russian proposals. Are they just seeking a single step back from the brink, or are they proposing several steps, where strategic stability could lead to greater cooperation. Perhaps Russia is warning that if they are removed from swift they will disable swift though cyber war and crash the global economy. Of they could simply stop exporting oil and oil prices will go to $200 crashing the global economy. Would it hurt Russia? Hell yes, but much less then an actual shooting war.
LMFS- Posts : 5169
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GarryB wrote:Even if HATO agreed and signed something... how much would that be worth... they are still the enemy.... by their own choice...
I would not expect much of anything from them at all and the more Russia looks elsewhere for everything they want and need the better for Russia.
The list of demands of Russia is nothing like what we have seen before, they are not asking for some conditions but dictating their conditions. Completely different and points out to a fundamentally different balance of power having been reached.
mnztr wrote:We don't know what was in the Russian proposals.
We do, they are public
https://anti-empire.com/russia-publishes-its-list-of-demands-for-dc-empire/
flamming_python- Posts : 9568
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Obviously these terms will never be accepted by Washington
And they're not meant to be. Moscow knows this.
Washington also knows that Moscow knows this. And it knows Moscow's reason for this proposal. Which is to exactly create a state of tension that can be escalated further at any time, and immediately.
The US and pals have played around with egging on the Ukraine to retake the Donbass by force, but also recently have started to dance around the issue of Taiwanese independence recognition.
The US has been co-operating with a pro-separatist party there. Taiwan is de-facto independent from Beijing yet still holds claim over Chinese territory given that it sees itself as the actual legitimate government of China. It's official position does not postulate independence as such. Yet, with the success of the CCP in developing China, that position has been evaporating and political forces are rising that want to declare Taiwan as a separate nation outright.
Well Washington just recently threw a feeler by getting Lithuania to recognize Taiwan.
If Taiwan declares independence formally as a separate nation, China has pledged military intervention
Anyway, the trouble for Beijing is, is that if it comes down to a military showdown to Taiwan, the US can mobilize all of its forces there and stand a good chance of stopping it
And this is exactly where Moscow comes in, which has also been dealing with US demands and military pressure. By heating up the situation in Europe and creating a pretext for ramping up military tensions, Russia can take the heat off China, split America's forces, and create a situation where neither Moscow nor Beijing have to deal with their threats alone. If Washington raises the stakes on one, the tensions will reach breaking-point with the other as well.
Moscow and Beijing have passed the ball back into Washington's court, and I said the later has already figured this out. Therefore it has to be careful on how to respond to Moscow's proposal. If it rejects it outright it serves to give Moscow the initiative, and will de-facto link security in Europe to that of Taiwan's status as well.
Washington will probably seek to drag the negotiations out at the very least. It won't be a great idea to give Kiev the green-light for invading the Donbass either.
All pretty complicated really.
And they're not meant to be. Moscow knows this.
Washington also knows that Moscow knows this. And it knows Moscow's reason for this proposal. Which is to exactly create a state of tension that can be escalated further at any time, and immediately.
The US and pals have played around with egging on the Ukraine to retake the Donbass by force, but also recently have started to dance around the issue of Taiwanese independence recognition.
The US has been co-operating with a pro-separatist party there. Taiwan is de-facto independent from Beijing yet still holds claim over Chinese territory given that it sees itself as the actual legitimate government of China. It's official position does not postulate independence as such. Yet, with the success of the CCP in developing China, that position has been evaporating and political forces are rising that want to declare Taiwan as a separate nation outright.
Well Washington just recently threw a feeler by getting Lithuania to recognize Taiwan.
If Taiwan declares independence formally as a separate nation, China has pledged military intervention
Anyway, the trouble for Beijing is, is that if it comes down to a military showdown to Taiwan, the US can mobilize all of its forces there and stand a good chance of stopping it
And this is exactly where Moscow comes in, which has also been dealing with US demands and military pressure. By heating up the situation in Europe and creating a pretext for ramping up military tensions, Russia can take the heat off China, split America's forces, and create a situation where neither Moscow nor Beijing have to deal with their threats alone. If Washington raises the stakes on one, the tensions will reach breaking-point with the other as well.
Moscow and Beijing have passed the ball back into Washington's court, and I said the later has already figured this out. Therefore it has to be careful on how to respond to Moscow's proposal. If it rejects it outright it serves to give Moscow the initiative, and will de-facto link security in Europe to that of Taiwan's status as well.
Washington will probably seek to drag the negotiations out at the very least. It won't be a great idea to give Kiev the green-light for invading the Donbass either.
All pretty complicated really.
kvs- Posts : 15874
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US generals have already stated that the US would not win a conventional war with China over Taiwan.
Russia is doing the right thing, finally. NATzO will not be getting any concessions and will no "pax". All
of its inane exercises in the Baltics right along Russia's borders and all those dick stroking aircraft and
ship outings "to rub Russia's nose in it" mean diddley squat. NATzO and its owners in Washington rely
on compliance. If there is any intermediate nuclear missile deployment, Russia will respond. This does
not have to involve stationing such missiles in Cuba. Having Poseidon patrols about 1000 km from the US
coast will give Washington a stroke.
Russia is doing the right thing, finally. NATzO will not be getting any concessions and will no "pax". All
of its inane exercises in the Baltics right along Russia's borders and all those dick stroking aircraft and
ship outings "to rub Russia's nose in it" mean diddley squat. NATzO and its owners in Washington rely
on compliance. If there is any intermediate nuclear missile deployment, Russia will respond. This does
not have to involve stationing such missiles in Cuba. Having Poseidon patrols about 1000 km from the US
coast will give Washington a stroke.
LMFS- Posts : 5169
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flamming_python wrote:Obviously these terms will never be accepted by Washington
And they're not meant to be. Moscow knows this.
Not immediately, but, as said above, the crucial change is not that the West has stopped to be stupid and delusional, is that Russia and China see themselves strong enough to stop complaining and start putting up demands and backing them with clear threats, last one for instance:
Russia to create counter threats if NATO turns down security proposals - diplomat
The Europeans must think about the prospect of turning the continent into a filed of military confrontation, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko said
https://tass.com/politics/1377621
Russia and China are moving to the offensive, they will launch their alternative bank payment system in the short term (probably before the end of 2022) and will start to actively threaten not only the foundations of Western primacy but their very economic viability, given the level of indebtedness they carry and their anaemic productive economies. The change in the rhetoric has nothing to do with the Kremlin getting tired or learning anything, but on the fact that their national development and international alliances allow them NOW to openly challenge the West at all levels. China is adopting the same attitude as of late too, BTW. The more the West delays to sign exactly the full package of the proposals issued by Russia, the more they risk seeing their currencies abandoned en masse and crashing their economies really, really badly. It is up to them to chose.
Besides, of course, making these demands now puts the pressure on Washington to chose the road of peace or confrontation and therefore covers eventual escalation by Russia.
Anyway, the trouble for Beijing is, is that if it comes down to a military showdown to Taiwan, the US can mobilize all of its forces there and stand a good chance of stopping it
No, not at all. China would crush US forces in the Western Pacific, and US knows this very well as it has been wargamed with unequivocal results. They stand no chance, similarly to the situation they face in Ukraine, so they decided to explicitly cancel the military path and ramped up the propaganda and the economic pressure, leveraging their still existing dominance of the media and financial institutions that gives them much better return than suffering an embarrassing defeat at the hands of China or Russia. The more the US delay being called out on their military bluff, the better for them.
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Hole- Posts : 11132
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The americans made 20+ war games about China/Taiwan and lost all the time. Their best plan is to send 150.000 soldiers to South Korea which would take 180 days!
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Godric- Posts : 802
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What Russia needs to do/respond if America removes Russia from SWIFT is firstly ban the Sale of Titanium to America and American companies and reduce production so that America can't get the Titanium from 3rd parties who try to increase purchases to help America to bypass the sanction, 2ndly ban the sale of all RD180 rockets to NASA and end all co-operation with NASA and ISIS and starting working in co-operation with the Chinese instead and lastly convince OPEC members to go that one step extra and stop the sale of oil in dollars after OPEC members refused to increase oil production ... Russia and Vladimir Putin has to push back and push back hard if America continues to go ahead with it's anti Russia agenda
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PhSt- Posts : 1494
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The brazen kidnapping of Russian IT specialists continues
I would suggest that Russia create similar bogus charges against US IT experts in third countries and demand their extradition to Russia to face jail time.
Swiss Extradite Jailed Kremlin Technology Adviser to U.S.
Switzerland said it extradited a Russian IT specialist with Kremlin ties to the U.S., where he faces charges of insider trading.
Swiss courts rejected multiple appeals to free Vladislav Klyushin, who worked with the Kremlin and Russian government ministries. He was detained in March on a request by U.S. federal prosecutors after stepping off a private jet at Sion, Switzerland, on his way to a skiing holiday with his family.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-18/switzerland-extradites-jailed-kremlin-technology-adviser-to-u-s
I would suggest that Russia create similar bogus charges against US IT experts in third countries and demand their extradition to Russia to face jail time.
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kvs- Posts : 15874
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America acting out like the mafia state that it is.
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GarryB- Posts : 40574
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The west has pushed and pushed and pushed and are pushing in the direction of conflict and confrontation, but the change is that Putin has looked at his cards and they actually look rather good... he no longer has to compromise, and even more amusing... the things the US is threatening to do... their peak threat to cut Russia out of SWIFT is actually a good option for Russia to do serious damage the the economic world created and controlled by the US... and what better time could there be for the west to change direction and avoid complete collapse... look at the EU... making energy prices much more expensive is not a solution the EU would be choosing for itself if it had the choice... that is coming from the US because the US fears being left out if the EU gets closer to Russia and Asia/China.
So glad to see Putin wearing the big boy boots and I have been impressed in the past with his solutions to the stupidity of the west that resulted in EU food bans and Russian troops being able to help in Syria.
He is getting a whole new range of weapons coming on line now and it will be interesting what he decides to put in to service and point at the west.
Sadly those third countries are unlikely to comply, but I am sure there is plenty of stuff Russia can do to these countries who hand Russian citizens to the US on these trumped up charges.
So glad to see Putin wearing the big boy boots and I have been impressed in the past with his solutions to the stupidity of the west that resulted in EU food bans and Russian troops being able to help in Syria.
He is getting a whole new range of weapons coming on line now and it will be interesting what he decides to put in to service and point at the west.
I would suggest that Russia create similar bogus charges against US IT experts in third countries and demand their extradition to Russia to face jail time.
Sadly those third countries are unlikely to comply, but I am sure there is plenty of stuff Russia can do to these countries who hand Russian citizens to the US on these trumped up charges.
mnztr- Posts : 2910
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Russia should just shut down swift with cyber attacks and offer its on payment system as an alternative. At some point US sanctions become acts of war, in fact you can argue they are past this. If Russia starts sending transactions in swift awry via hacking, it will quickly lose its credibility. Part of me wonders in the conversation with Biden that Putin maybe said in his own cryptic way, that if Russia is cut off from SWIFT it has many means of retaliation that could cause severe disruption to global commerce that would equal of exceed the pain inflicted on Russia. Fresh off the back of Solar Winds and the disruption to US fuel pipelines. I think the US knows Russia can shut it down without firing a single shot.
GarryB- Posts : 40574
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Russia should not resort to hacking and sabotage, just expose examples of US sabotage and hacking and then offer their new system as an alternative to avoid big brother snooping into your private affairs and everything you do.
Russia is an example of an alternative to the shit the west is up to... if it descends to the same crap then they are no longer an alternative... more of the same shit slightly different flavour.
Russia should present itself as what the US used to present itself as... truth and justice are more important than private personal gain... what you can do for your country being more important than being able to list all your personal rights but not having any responsibilities...
Russia should start transactions that bypass SWIFT and as that traffic grows they can slow down using SWIFT to only essential transactions... working with their own payment system will be cheaper or even profitable for them so there is every reason to start using it where sensible.
I doubt the US has the balls to kick them out of SWIFT because they know how destructive it will be for SWIFT... something they currently essentially control... and forcing Iran and China and Russia and loads of other countries to use something else they can't even monitor let alone control would be the worst thing they could think of because they like being able to listen to everyone all the time... it is how they control individuals... look at the extraditions of Russian citizens to the US... you can bet they were all offered deals... it is how the US operates.
Russia is an example of an alternative to the shit the west is up to... if it descends to the same crap then they are no longer an alternative... more of the same shit slightly different flavour.
Russia should present itself as what the US used to present itself as... truth and justice are more important than private personal gain... what you can do for your country being more important than being able to list all your personal rights but not having any responsibilities...
Russia should start transactions that bypass SWIFT and as that traffic grows they can slow down using SWIFT to only essential transactions... working with their own payment system will be cheaper or even profitable for them so there is every reason to start using it where sensible.
I doubt the US has the balls to kick them out of SWIFT because they know how destructive it will be for SWIFT... something they currently essentially control... and forcing Iran and China and Russia and loads of other countries to use something else they can't even monitor let alone control would be the worst thing they could think of because they like being able to listen to everyone all the time... it is how they control individuals... look at the extraditions of Russian citizens to the US... you can bet they were all offered deals... it is how the US operates.
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LMFS- Posts : 5169
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"Everyone understands everything perfectly, the moment of truth is coming in relations between Russia and NATO. You cannot constantly hit Russia's weak spots, you need to be determined ... The conversation must be serious, and everyone in NATO understands very well, despite all the strength and power, that it is necessary to take concrete political steps, otherwise, the alternative is military-technical and military responses from Russia", Gavrilov told the broadcaster Rossiya 24.
https://sputniknews.com/20211220/nato-should-stop-escalation-to-prevent-possible-military-response-from-russia-diplomat-says-1091662447.html
Moscow Needs Urgent Response From US on Security Guarantee Proposals, Deputy FM Says
Russian diplomats announced their proposals on 15 December, publishing the details on the Foreign Ministry's website on Friday.
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov has urged Washington to give an immediate response to the proposals for security guarantees, stressing that the situation surrounding Russia-US relations is difficult.
"I think that there will be no refusal [from the US] as such, but there will be an attempt to add all sorts of wishes, conditions, all sorts of additional ideas just to throw the ball over to our side", the diplomat said.
He noted that Washington will try to slow down the negotiation process, but stated that Moscow needs an answer as soon as possible because the situation continues to deteriorate.
https://sputniknews.com/20211220/moscow-needs-urgent-response-from-us-on-security-guarantee-proposals-deputy-fm-says-1091660845.html
https://sputniknews.com/20211220/nato-should-stop-escalation-to-prevent-possible-military-response-from-russia-diplomat-says-1091662447.html
Moscow Needs Urgent Response From US on Security Guarantee Proposals, Deputy FM Says
Russian diplomats announced their proposals on 15 December, publishing the details on the Foreign Ministry's website on Friday.
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov has urged Washington to give an immediate response to the proposals for security guarantees, stressing that the situation surrounding Russia-US relations is difficult.
"I think that there will be no refusal [from the US] as such, but there will be an attempt to add all sorts of wishes, conditions, all sorts of additional ideas just to throw the ball over to our side", the diplomat said.
He noted that Washington will try to slow down the negotiation process, but stated that Moscow needs an answer as soon as possible because the situation continues to deteriorate.
https://sputniknews.com/20211220/moscow-needs-urgent-response-from-us-on-security-guarantee-proposals-deputy-fm-says-1091660845.html
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Hole- Posts : 11132
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https://thesaker.is/a-throne-of-chinese-skulls-oh-yeah/
It seems China is on board.
It seems China is on board.
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mnztr- Posts : 2910
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The really insane thing, developing close ties with Russia was the USA last and best hope to retain leadership of the world for a longer time. Instead they have driven Russia, with its unlimited energy and resouces, right into the arms of China, unleashing almost unlimited industrial and development potential.The ship has sailed. Too late USA.
mnztr- Posts : 2910
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GarryB wrote:Russia should not resort to hacking and sabotage, just expose examples of US sabotage and hacking and then offer their new system as an alternative to avoid big brother snooping into your private affairs and everything you do.
Russia is an example of an alternative to the shit the west is up to... if it descends to the same crap then they are no longer an alternative... more of the same shit slightly different flavour.
Russia should present itself as what the US used to present itself as... truth and justice are more important than private personal gain... what you can do for your country being more important than being able to list all your personal rights but not having any responsibilities...
Russia should start transactions that bypass SWIFT and as that traffic grows they can slow down using SWIFT to only essential transactions... working with their own payment system will be cheaper or even profitable for them so there is every reason to start using it where sensible.
I doubt the US has the balls to kick them out of SWIFT because they know how destructive it will be for SWIFT... something they currently essentially control... and forcing Iran and China and Russia and loads of other countries to use something else they can't even monitor let alone control would be the worst thing they could think of because they like being able to listen to everyone all the time... it is how they control individuals... look at the extraditions of Russian citizens to the US... you can bet they were all offered deals... it is how the US operates.
That won't be enough. The USA will sanction ANYONE that joins. Taking Russia out of SWIFT is an act of economic war. Russia will never be able to court these nations with the USA carrot and stick.
Godric- Posts : 802
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mnztr wrote:GarryB wrote:Russia should not resort to hacking and sabotage, just expose examples of US sabotage and hacking and then offer their new system as an alternative to avoid big brother snooping into your private affairs and everything you do.
Russia is an example of an alternative to the shit the west is up to... if it descends to the same crap then they are no longer an alternative... more of the same shit slightly different flavour.
Russia should present itself as what the US used to present itself as... truth and justice are more important than private personal gain... what you can do for your country being more important than being able to list all your personal rights but not having any responsibilities...
Russia should start transactions that bypass SWIFT and as that traffic grows they can slow down using SWIFT to only essential transactions... working with their own payment system will be cheaper or even profitable for them so there is every reason to start using it where sensible.
I doubt the US has the balls to kick them out of SWIFT because they know how destructive it will be for SWIFT... something they currently essentially control... and forcing Iran and China and Russia and loads of other countries to use something else they can't even monitor let alone control would be the worst thing they could think of because they like being able to listen to everyone all the time... it is how they control individuals... look at the extraditions of Russian citizens to the US... you can bet they were all offered deals... it is how the US operates.
That won't be enough. The USA will sanction ANYONE that joins. Taking Russia out of SWIFT is an act of economic war. Russia will never be able to court these nations with the USA carrot and stick.
i don't know, when you have OPEC countries including Saudi Arabia rubber earing American calls for increased oil extraction anything is possible China is a huge market for OPEC countries compared to America
mnztr- Posts : 2910
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Godric wrote:
i don't know, when you have OPEC countries including Saudi Arabia rubber earing American calls for increased oil extraction anything is possible China is a huge market for OPEC countries compared to America
The US is completely hypocritical. They whine about NS2, in the meantime, the creation of OPEC+ was partially brokered by them + they import Russian oil.
GarryB- Posts : 40574
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The really insane thing, developing close ties with Russia was the USA last and best hope to retain leadership of the world for a longer time.
And the ridiculous thing is that it could have been so easy... with Russia on their side for a few minor concessions and a few changes in policy they could have avoided some serious conflicts of their own and saved themselves a lot of money in the process... but that is probably the problem.
We as mere mortals think the invasion of Iraq was a stupid mistake... billions wasted, thousands of Americans killed likely hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed... but lots of money to be made first destroying and then rebuilding the country and that is what it is all about.
That won't be enough. The USA will sanction ANYONE that joins.
But America will have to join if it wants to buy oil and gas from Russia let alone diamonds and titanium... everyone that buys from Russia will need to join to be able to pay for things including the Germans to pay for Gas whichever pipe it arrives through.
Taking Russia out of SWIFT is an act of economic war. Russia will never be able to court these nations with the USA carrot and stick.
All the countries that currently buy products and services from Russia will need to join to pay... Russia does not need to tell the US who has joined and nor do the countries who join need to tell the US they have joined or how much they are spending.
i don't know, when you have OPEC countries including Saudi Arabia rubber earing American calls for increased oil extraction anything is possible China is a huge market for OPEC countries compared to America
The US is losing its power because China produces a lot of western stuff made by western companies so more countries rely on trade with China even if the company that makes the products might be based in the US or elsewhere.
ALAMO- Posts : 7529
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mnztr wrote:Godric wrote:
i don't know, when you have OPEC countries including Saudi Arabia rubber earing American calls for increased oil extraction anything is possible China is a huge market for OPEC countries compared to America
The US is completely hypocritical. They whine about NS2, in the meantime, the creation of OPEC+ was partially brokered by them + they import Russian oil.
They whine NS2, while buying Russian oil as fast as they can.
It is jus a business. If you can nail your competitor - why not?