miketheterrible wrote:That is classified as trolling you know. Which according to some mods is ban offense.
It's just the reality.
miketheterrible wrote:That is classified as trolling you know. Which according to some mods is ban offense.
miketheterrible wrote:That is classified as trolling you know. Which according to some mods is ban offense.
miketheterrible wrote:
I mean, we can start joking about Chinese tanks in Russian tank thread of its tracks falling off or cannon falling off in Peru. But that is called trolling.
Isos wrote:miketheterrible wrote:
I mean, we can start joking about Chinese tanks in Russian tank thread of its tracks falling off or cannon falling off in Peru. But that is called trolling.
I would add that his comparison to the K, even if it was a joke and you got triggered for no reason, is very interesting because it shows how fast chinese ships are build but also how they still lack the capacity to go with their own designs. It also show that Russia struggle with big ships even for maintenance. In terms of power projection China takes the lead by far, in capacity only because in reality they project nothing further their few islands at their borders.
With that said as the this thread shows the Chines are in full process of producing ships of thier own designs.
they didn't get the cable arresting system from Russia & had to develop their own. R their J-20s, SSNs & SSBNs also copies?Isos wrote:Their designs are copies of russian and US hardware be it ships or the weapons inside. They struggle with a copy of K..
Then they need the 5th generation jet that comes with, nuclear power, catapult, reliability and use it for 30-50 years like US ...
(Just had to) Rolling Eyes
It's just the reality.
Not really no. A newly built ship is different than one that is old and undergoing refurbishment which leads to issues.
I mean, we can start joking about Chinese tanks in Russian tank thread of its tracks falling off or cannon falling off in Peru. But that is called trolling.
So stop being retarded. It isn't that hard.
For some reason I just knew that comment would come.
Take a joke dude, Merry christmas!!!
I would add that his comparison to the K, even if it was a joke and you got triggered for no reason, is very interesting because it shows how fast chinese ships are build but also how they still lack the capacity to go with their own designs.
It also show that Russia struggle with big ships even for maintenance.
In terms of power projection China takes the lead by far, in capacity only because in reality they project nothing further their few islands at their borders.
It is also good to remember that the newest US carrier can't operate the latest carrier based fighter, the f35. Because it's a very expensive nightmare to develop.
UK has two of them but nothing to protect far away from mainland and its navy is lacking money to operate frigates let alone carriers.
France on the other hand is still asking itself if they should get a second carrier while they still have a pretty impressive amount of land to protect far away from the mainland and the only carrier and the few modern frigates they have are not enough.
With that said as the this thread shows the Chines are in full process of producing ships of thier own designs.
K class and its copy are conventional powered with skijump. Nothing really hard to do or operate. CATOBAR are another level.
However, the vessel’s specifications suggest that the atomic behemoth will in fact be used as an icebreaker and speculations that the prototype could pave the way for the country’s first nuclear-powered aircraft carriers are rife.
China will be able to draw valuable lessons from designing, constructing, and operating a nuclear icebreaker. “The use of a nuclear icebreaker can be understood as laying the foundation for the future acquisition of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers,” states Aki Tonami, Arctic researcher and Professor at the University of Tsukuba in Japan.
Oh please... you keep going on about how wonderful the Chinese ship building industry is and how shit the Russian ship building industry is... when the Chinese make a ship that is of unique design with weapons and systems they have developed themselves then I might be impressed... the Russians should be able to crank out plenty of cold war designed ships and subs, but WTF would they do with them?
There was one fire... how on earth can you equate that to the entire Russian ship building industry struggling with maintenance?
Well commander exaggeration, tell me how China has expanded its lead in power projection... and how is that expansion helping them in places like Venezuela and Syria for instance? Could China even mount an operation like the Russian operation in Syria?
Ahh bollocks... They didn't need a nuclear powered carrier for what they wanted conventional power did the job. They also only need cats for AWACS, otherwise they only need fighters which for them means ski jumps work fine... faster to use and effective enough for fighter payloads.
How many nuclear icebreakers (or otherwise, for that matter) r in the USCG? It's a matter of priorities based on, geography, history & economy.It is a little disturbing that they think a nuclear powered icebreaker means they can design and build a nuclear carrier... how many nuclear icebreakers does Russia have compared with nuclear powered aircraft carriers? ..icebreakers don't need armour or to store large amounts of fuel and ammunition, but carriers need to be able to move fast when required...
FYI, they conducted anti-piracy patrols off Africa, exercises in the Med., Baltic, Black, Bering Seas/Indian Ocean, & helped to evacuate civilians from Libya.But like I said chinese do nothing with their ships.
even if all their catapults fail at 1st, & if the ski jump is retained, there will be plenty of time to correct/fix them.And if Chinese succeeded in building K sistership that doesn't mean they will succeed in building a nuclear powered catobar.
GarryB wrote:(Just had to) Rolling Eyes
Another civilised westerner trolling... what a shock... a low blow as usual... but I can understand the butt hurt... after all my last few posts on this thread have been scathing against the Chinese and their navy... don't worry... you just cured me of that. Wonder how real Chinese posters will feel about you ruffling feathers and creating hostility where none was needed...
GarryB wrote: was one fire... how on earth can you equate that to the entire Russian ship building industry struggling with maintenance?
You are confusing shipbuilding and design bureau.
Their shipbuilding industry creates every two years the amount of ships in the french navy.
Those are destroyers, big landing ships, frigates, carriers ... something russian cab only dream of.
So yeah they are very good.
Russian are far behind and are happy when they finish a missile boat. And let's not talk about civilian ships.
The thing is that it is chinese design bureau that suck because they just copy foreign design.
A fire on the only carrier that happened because of lack of security measures.
That should have never happened.
There were also similar fires in many nuclear sub in the last decade that killed many people. There was no progress over the years.
Do you know how to read ? Like really do you know ? Read again what I said.
Here it is : "In terms of power projection China takes the lead by far, in capacity only because in reality they project nothing further their few islands at their borders.
Go on wikipedia and check the numbers. China has now two carrier, big landing ships of improved Ivan Gren like class, something like 20+ modern multi role destroyers.
Russia has what ? Some landing ships and they even had to buy quickly from aboard some civilian ro-ro ships to support its operation in Syria.
Its destroyers can't create an air defence bubble, they need the few kirov and slava for that. They have however the advantage of big transport planes.
But like I said chinese do nothing with their ships. It is expectionnal to see them near Japan or in the middle of pacific. Further than that they mostly never go.
It wasn't my point. Again read carefully what I said. I was talking about construction of carriers.
In terms of construction a K is easy to make because it has nothing really new or complicated and uses conventional power. Most of the work is welding, something that any shipyard can do.
A catobar is another level. And if Chinese succeeded in buildig K sistership that doesn't mean they will succeed in building a nuclear powered catobar. Specially that this time they will also have to come up with a totally home made design.
By increasing/doubling the # of reactors it's possible to get enough power. The CVN-65 had 8 of them.
China’s CVs tipped to team up to target foreign forces aiding Taiwan
Well buhuu, cry me a river.
One fire?
Dry dock sinks...
Crane falls on the carrier....
Carrier cathes fire....
Add to this the last mission to Syria that included two crashes becouse of technical failures on the ship.
If this isnt bad maintence I dont know what.
Absolutely. The French CVN had many problems but not with its reactors AFAIK. The same reactors power their SSBN:Well it comes down to deciding what is safest and what can be achieved...
In 1989 the PLAN was still a brown water navy- as back then, the CCP has no scruples drowning any1 in blood to "preserve societal harmony & stability, to insure China's peaceful rise under its guidance." It's no coincidence that during the recent 70y PRC's anniversary celebrations & the CV-17 commissioning, Chairman Xi wore Mao's suit. The PLA/Armed Police have a role in preserving CCP control/enforcing its will in HK & the PLAN has a role in preventing Taiwan going fully independent.Hahahahaha... yeah, nuclear powered aircraft carriers are excellent for fighting foreign funded protesters...
Isos wrote:Their shipbuilding industry creates every two years the amount of ships in the french navy. Those are destroyers, big landing ships, frigates, carriers ... So yeah they are very good.
The PLAN can send out a few Kilo/Yuan SSKs ahead of time to even the odds.Rubis and soon Barracuda submarines are vastly more stealthy than Chinese subs, just one of those could sink the entire Chinese battle group.
You are confusing fanboy wishes with reality... WTF would Russia even do with ten brand new destroyers and two new CV right now?
There is a big difference between what the CdG battle group can do and what the Shandong battle group can do. Once the Chinese fleet leaves the 1st island chain they are at a severe disadvantage to their French counterparts. PLAN has three distinct problems with their CBG, the most obvious is lack of of catapults which leaves no AWACs and limited payloads, the second is poor ASW and the third is noisy attack submarines. PLAN might be able to slug it out missile for missile as they carry more while France has more accurate one's, but the battle would never get that far. Rafale would be able to engage the Chinese long before they would ever know where the French were. Rubis and soon Barracuda submarines are vastly more stealthy than Chinese subs, just one of those could sink the entire Chinese battle group. It isn't about quantity, it is about quality of the capabilities.
Isos wrote:
That wasn't my point. I was just saying that chinese build ships very fast and in huge quantity that other countries can only dream of.
Chinese may have less capable vessels but they have much more of them than french. And their quality isn't that far from western or Russians. They got 4 Sovromenny that they are upgrading with their own stuff. If their missiles and detectors were so bad they wouldn't be replacing proven russian stuff. They also have s300, tors... from russia that they are copying. I wouldn't underestimate the chinese.
The thing with the french navy is that we have only 1 small carrier that can be destroyed in a sneaky attack. A chinese sub on the bottom of the sea, turned off and listening won't be detected unless you use active sonar. On the other side CdG launching its awacs and rafales can be heard hundreds of km away. When you attack you have the advantage of when and where.
Even north korea destroyed a modern south korean with a midget sub whike the corvette was using its active sonar.
Now that they understood how to build K class they will start CATOBAR. And once they understand how to build them they will pop up 4 or 5 in 10 years.
GarryB wrote:
More trolling... love the irony... you like playing with fire but it is unacceptable for fires to happen on Russian ships...
One fire?
Dry dock sinks...
Crane falls on the carrier....
Carrier cathes fire....
Hahahaha... how dishonest... the dry dock sinking caused the crane to fall, and, what a year later there is a fire related accident... it must be cursed... so why is China copying them?
Add to this the last mission to Syria that included two crashes becouse of technical failures on the ship.
One technical failure that resulted in two aircraft being lost.
If this isnt bad maintence I dont know what.
But that is the point... you have no fucking idea... but luckily fake news doesn't require facts or the truth or even any sense of reality.
A dock sinks because of a power cut. A fire starts because rags were no cleared up decks below where some work was being done... the sky must be falling... fire all the people working at Russian shipyards and just make all Russian ships in China.... is that the solution?
Are they looking after you in that troll farm... do you get a good pay rate, do you get dental with your healthcare package?
Started any good riots in Hong Kong today?
there r plenty of shallow areas in & around China's seas.A Chinese sub on the bottom of the sea would be crushed like a tin can and would lay forever where it sat.
Back in In October 2006, Kitty Hawk and her escort warships were undergoing exercises near Okinawa, and a Chinese Song-class submarine shadowed the group then surfaced within 5 mi (8.0 km) of the group on 26 October 2006. ..Reports claim that the submarine had been undetected until it surfaced.Chinese subs are so noisy no one has any problem tracking them.
The stuff they are replacing is Soviet Era, the only criteria is that they make it indigenously. They don't want to buy Russian anything if they don't have to. What they consider good would be considered unacceptable by Western standards.
The thing about the Chinese Navy is they only have 1 combat capable carrier which can easily be destroyed by a French attack sub. A Chinese sub on the bottom of the sea would be crushed like a tin can and would lay forever where it sat. Chinese subs are so noisy no one has any problem tracking them.
Once Chinese make an actual CATOBAR then their carrier aviation will become more potent, they still suffer from poor ASW and noisy nuclear submarines. That isn't set to change anytime soon.
Tsavo Lion wrote:
there r plenty of shallow areas in & around China's seas.
a Chinese Song-class submarine
relatively shallow- those depths won't crush them & they can lie there in ambush.Who says they will be operating there? You can't park a nuclear submarine in shallow waters and expect to get kills.
they have plenty of quieter SSKs to send out ahead of time along possible CVN route/patrol area, no need to keep up with it. It's been done with the USN; the French Navy ASW isn't any better. Besides, Soviet SSNs were noisier but still at least 1 managed to get a periscope picture of a CVN, & 1 collided with the CV-63: https://www.pbase.com/image/101581592I was referring to nuclear subs, SSKs can't keep up with a carrier group.
There is a big difference between what the CdG battle group can do and what the Shandong battle group can do.
It isn't about quantity, it is about quality of the capabilities.
China & Russia can & will cooperate in improving their ASW as it would benefit both.
Idk. Ask russian admirals. They expressed the need for 30 Gorshkovs when the program started.
That wasn't my point. I was just saying that chinese build ships very fast and in huge quantity that other countries can only dream of.
Chinese may have less capable vessels but they have much more of them than french. And their quality isn't that far from western or Russians.
They got 4 Sovromenny that they are upgrading with their own stuff.
If their missiles and detectors were so bad they wouldn't be replacing proven russian stuff.
They also have s300, tors... from russia that they are copying. I wouldn't underestimate the chinese.
The thing with the french navy is that we have only 1 small carrier that can be destroyed in a sneaky attack. A chinese sub on the bottom of the sea, turned off and listening won't be detected unless you use active sonar. On the other side CdG launching its awacs and rafales can be heard hundreds of km away. When you attack you have the advantage of when and where.
Now that they understood how to build K class they will start CATOBAR. And once they understand how to build them they will pop up 4 or 5 in 10 years.
You cant possibly think that the Russian ship building industry and the Russian navy itself hasnt f****d up quite a few times during the last decades?
Does every accident happed becouse of bad maintenance? No, im sure alot is becouse of inexperienced crews, not following fire and security protocols (Fire hazard training seems specialy out the window in Russia), bad qualtiy on parts and systems, rushed time schedules on vessels that isnt really ready for service or trials for that matter.
And it isnt small things we are talking about here. Several dozen of servicemen and workers have lost thier lives during this period. Im sure more will be lost over the next decade.
What i know of the chinese (copied) carriers hasnt been on fire, they havnt lost any lives and havnt had cranes falling on them. This only seem to happen to the Russians....strange right?
Yet they are buying su-35 because they have better engines than chinese so when russian stuff is better than theirs they keep it. They wouldn't be upgrading the Sovs with their own missiles if they were not better.
When they get this catobar and if they still suffer from bad ASW tools, they will buy it from Russia just like they bought s-400 and su-35.
they r becoming a global empire; ships r needed to escort CV/Ns, protect SLOCs, islands, EEZ, SSBN bastions, interests, citizens, for diplomacy, SAR, C4IR, disaster relief, & research.with no global empire like the US what do you think they are going to do with all these ships?
To have 2 combat ready & deployed 24/7 at sea in a crisis, at least 6 r needed. Also, 1-2 could be used as decoys to draw forces away from the main action; having them at sea beyond the 1st Island Chain will help to locate hostile CSGs &/ keep them farther away from Taiwan & the SC Sea.And what on earth are they going to do with 6 or 7 aircraft carriers?