RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

It competed against what exactly? Pantsir is a well proven system, this other system is not.

Tunguska may not be sufficient now compared to Pantsir. But the Pantsir would be far superior to this Korean system in every perameter. I'm assuming S.Korea offered a better deal overall which if that's the case, then S.Korea won they won.. in other words, Russia will have to offer better some other time.

But we know what the real answer is in all of this. India uses military procurements as influence. They get terrible equipment and pay a fortune for it, but they do it for influence. To counter China, they are going with all of China's neighbors minus Russia because they know they don't have the same influence on Russia.

As well, they already purchased AD systems from Russia so they are looking from other sources to "diversify" suppliers.

It says the Indians received a broadside from the Russians... but does not quote it... interesting...

Says in the article the guns on the South Korean system are effective to 3km which is not better than Pantsir or Tunguska at 4km and its missiles have a range of 5km, with Pantsir reaching 20km and Tunguska reaching 10km... perhaps the testing was skewed to favour the SK system?

I suspect this is the problem:

“It is a boon to Korea that India is attempting to move away from its dependence on Russia for arms since the early 2000s,” said Cho Choong-jae, a researcher at the Korea Institute for International Economic Policy. “Korea should emphasize defense cooperation with India to help New Delhi diversify its weapons sources.”

From the original Korean article... the Korean system is the Rafale in this case...

GarryB wrote:Says in the article the guns on the South Korean system are effective to 3km which is not better than Pantsir or Tunguska at 4km and its missiles have a range of 5km, with Pantsir reaching 20km and Tunguska reaching 10km... perhaps the testing was skewed to favour the SK system?

Actually the so-called missile of Hybrid Biho are... MANPADS. And I suspect that MANPAD is actually Korean version of Russian Igla.

India buy large number of Igla-S MANPADs for 1,5 billion $ in November 2018. Interesting is, that India buy Igla-S and not newer and better Verba. Competitors were MBDA from France and SAAB from Sweden, what means Mistral and RBS-70.

India buy S-400 and Igla-S from Russia, Barak-8 and Spyder from Israel and now Biho from South korea. How will they work together in effective IADS only God knows as they are not compatible. India most probably choose Biho for diversifications, like Igla-S from Russia and Biho from South Korea as western side. Also there could be a price also a factor. Biho cost 12 million $ while Tunguska-M1 and Pantsir-S1 cost around 15 million $. India waste too much money on too expensive toys, that now they have to economy on SHORAD gun-missile complexes.

medo wrote:India buy large number of Igla-S MANPADs for 1,5 billion $ in November 2018. Interesting is, that India buy Igla-S and not newer and better Verba. Competitors were MBDA from France and SAAB from Sweden, what means Mistral and RBS-70.

India buy S-400 and Igla-S from Russia, Barak-8 and Spyder from Israel and now Biho from South korea. How will they work together in effective IADS only God knows as they are not compatible. India most probably choose Biho for diversifications, like Igla-S from Russia and Biho from South Korea as western side. Also there could be a price also a factor. Biho cost 12 million $ while Tunguska-M1 and Pantsir-S1 cost around 15 million $. India waste too much money on too expensive toys, that now they have to economy on SHORAD gun-missile complexes.

God knows if the Indian military has a practical military doctrine. Just look at how Saudi Arabia buys arms for influence; from a practical point of view that military doctrine was a complete and utter disaster/failure in Yemen. Suffice to say, they're (DRDO) going to have to find out the hard way, maybe it requires a 'Grozny' like scenario in Kashmir for them to get their shit together. Lets not even talk about the failure of the Arjun MBT.

Indian Armed Forces actually are not that bad, they still manage to gain significant victories during the time when most of their weaponry are Western.

If we look back at the depth of the history, we can understand why pro-West factions persist in Indian military. India begin as a Western-type army with Western weapons. Only in the late 19xx they managed to acquire Soviet weapons, and although the amount of Soviet/Russian equipments have a good trend to increase, pro-West factions are still strong and they will make violent resistance.

But we can see clearly what is the trend for Indian military. India begin with Shermans and Centurions, but know it is inevitable that T-72 and T-90 is the building blocks for Indian Armoured Forces, while Arjun remains at a pathetic level of numbers. Similarly MiG-29 and Su-30 enjoyed a good position while Rafale contract is clearly just to appease the anti-Russia figures. And INSAS is basically AK with 5,56 ammo.

I still believe that sooner or later Indian Armed Forces must find a way to purge the anti-Russia factions so that they can grow and develop.

How will they work together in effective IADS only God knows as they are not compatible.

Against Pakistan, they don't need such big IADS with state of the art communication and radars integration. Systems working by their own with radio communication between them is enough. Su-30 are also enough to deal with pakistan. S-400 will be used as ABM while other air def system won't see action to be honest.

China is big but their air force is still old. So again good radio communication between system should be enough.

Isos wrote:

How will they work together in effective IADS only God knows as they are not compatible.

Against Pakistan, they don't need such big IADS with state of the art communication and radars integration. Systems working by their own with radio communication between them is enough. Su-30 are also enough to deal with pakistan. S-400 will be used as ABM while other air def system won't see action to be honest.

China is big but their air force is still old. So again good radio communication between system should be enough.

Man the more you post, the more you prove how little you know. Both Pakistan and China have cruise missiles in their arsenal, more than enough reason to have IAD.

Actually the so-called missile of Hybrid Biho are... MANPADS. And I suspect that MANPAD is actually Korean version of Russian Igla.

Oh dear... that is actually rather pathetic... most modern fighters and attack aircraft/helos can launch guided weapons from outside MANPADS range... even the Hind can launch Ataka missiles from 6km...

India buy large number of Igla-S MANPADs for 1,5 billion $ in November 2018. Interesting is, that India buy Igla-S and not newer and better Verba. Competitors were MBDA from France and SAAB from Sweden, what means Mistral and RBS-70.

Igla-S is a good system, relatively cheap and fully portable, it has a proximity fuse so it can destroy tiny targets like small UAVS without having to hit them directly.

I remember that trials with older model Iglas... can't remember if it was Igla or Igla-1, where they launched 9 missiles at 9 Malyutka targets (AT-3 ATGMs), which is a rather small target. I seem to remember there were 5 kills (ie direct hits) but the four near misses meant the target was not effected because without hitting the small target the warhead of the Igla did not detonate.

The result was the Igla-S with a proximity fuse for use against small targets.

India buy S-400 and Igla-S from Russia, Barak-8 and Spyder from Israel and now Biho from South korea. How will they work together in effective IADS only God knows as they are not compatible. India most probably choose Biho for diversifications, like Igla-S from Russia and Biho from South Korea as western side. Also there could be a price also a factor. Biho cost 12 million $ while Tunguska-M1 and Pantsir-S1 cost around 15 million $. India waste too much money on too expensive toys, that now they have to economy on SHORAD gun-missile complexes.

If that is the case then the Russian systems would still be the better choice as the command guided missiles of both Russian systems are relatively cheap to use and off vastly better performance.

It would be interesting to see the actual details of the tests to see how MANPADS could beat the Tunguska or Pantsir....

Similarly MiG-29 and Su-30 enjoyed a good position while Rafale contract is clearly just to appease the anti-Russia figures.

To be fair the Mirage 2000 was a good aircraft if a little expensive. The Rafale is a medium fighter that costs three times more than their heavy fighter and probably even more than the projected price of their new 5th gen fighter project...

And INSAS is basically AK with 5,56 ammo.

Hopefully it will be replaced with AK-103s in 7.62x51 and 7.62x39mm calibres.

Against Pakistan, they don't need such big IADS with state of the art communication and radars integration. Systems working by their own with radio communication between them is enough. Su-30 are also enough to deal with pakistan. S-400 will be used as ABM while other air def system won't see action to be honest.

Have you ignored what has happened in Syria.... Israel and the US wont venture into Syrian held airspace... even with F-35s and F-22s... and it wasn't really the S-300... it was the IADS...

China is big but their air force is still old. So again good radio communication between system should be enough.

Are you suggesting that good systems on their own is all you need... no need to coordinate them or manage their use?

There is a reason why a police force can deal with individuals or small groups of armed criminals... but when the numbers start to increase the tendency is to call in the national guard.

Dealing with one intruder or smuggler, sure, use individual air defence systems, but a coordinated attack requires a coordinated response.

A defence with no IADS is fragmented and vulnerable, a defence with an IADS is much much stronger and much more capable... even with just the same air defence weapons.

If that is the case then the Russian systems would still be the better choice as the command guided missiles of both Russian systems are relatively cheap to use and off vastly better performance.

It would be interesting to see the actual details of the tests to see how MANPADS could beat the Tunguska or Pantsir....

Rosoboroexport propose to India both Pantsir-S and Tor-M2 and in past they even install Tor-M2KM module on Tata truck for India. But I don't remember that there would be any information, that either Tor or Pantsir are actually in India for tests. Pantsir is battle proven in Syria, where in actuall combat conditions shot down different home made rockets, Grad rockets, aerostats, big and small drones, cruie missiles including stealth like JASSM and Scalp/Storm shadow, different bombs including GBU-39 SDB, different israeli cruise missiles and suicide drones, etc. And what is more important, israeli attacks went with heavy ECM support. Remember when F-16I Sufa was shot down in Syria although they use jamming. I don't know, if there is any other SHORAD, which shot down so many different targets in actual combat conditions. Integrated in IADS syrian Pantsirs also work well against massive attacks and prevent a lot of damage.

I would not buy any Indian claim, that Biho is better than Pantsir. Capabilities of Biho are similar to capabilities of BMPT. Difference is that Biho have search radar, which BMPT doesn't have and that BMPT have far stronger armor together with ERA. If BMPT is coordinated with Barnaul-T, than it have the same capabilities as Biho.

China is big but their air force is still old. So again good radio communication between system should be enough.

I hope this is a joke. China already have large number of multirole Su-30MKK/MK2 and J-11B. They have hundreds of multirole modern J-10 fighters. But what India really need to worry is new J-16, which is based on Su-30MK2, but far more improved and they made specialized version J-16D for electronic warfare and SEAD DEAD missions similar to EA-18G Growler. China have very modern armament for their fighters, so Indian air defense without proper IADS will be a joke against China. Also, in air defense, Russia is No.1 in the World and China is No.2 in the World. It means, that India is also facing the second best air defense in the World, when facing China.

A defence with no IADS is fragmented and vulnerable, a defence with an IADS is much much stronger and much more capable... even with just the same air defence weapons

True and we could see this very clearly in Syria, where Syrian air defense newly traind by Russians and connected in modern IADS broke massive attacks of the most modern western and Israeli weapons with modernized existing air defense complexes, which were very vulnerable and uneffective in past.

It's no competition. The Pantsir is significantly better than this South Korean system. Significantly greater range, Command guided missiles with future prospects thanks to Hermes-K, and combat proven.

It was placed in favor over the other systems just because......just because.

Logistics is going to kill Indian army. I remember reading about Indian soldiers running out of ammo at a base up in the mountain during Kargil war. From my understandings, they were packing mixture of AKM's and INSAS rifles. Obviously, two different kind of bullets. But to add to it, they used SVD's (well, their variant) and other rifles as well. Pakistani troops didn't have the same issue, they all used their own G3's with the appropriate ammo.

Interesting that the IAF could of gotten 2 Su-30's for every one Rafale they would of planned on purchasing.

In India, the French Rafale called inappropriate purchase

Indian throwing about the acquisition of certain types of weapons have long become the hallmark of this country. But if earlier violent disputes, discussions, accusations of the presence of a corruption component unfolded before signing contracts, now in India it has reached the point that already signed contracts with foreign suppliers are subject to sharp criticism. This situation manifests itself in relation to the contract with the French fighter manufacturer Rafale.



Earlier, India signed a contract for the purchase of about three dozen (exact number - 36, according to the Indian Defense Ministry) French fighters to upgrade the Air Force fleet. Now it suddenly turns out that in India they counted the funds that would have to be spent on servicing these planes, and came to the conclusion that “with the contract, they may have been quick. Military experts have joined the criticism, believing that Rafale does not in any way add to the Indian Air Force’s combat capability.

The article of Bharata Karnada in the India Today publication says the following:

The French Rafale fighter is a military irresponsibility. This is an inappropriate, cost-ineffective purchase that does not add to the real operational value of the Indian Air Force. Moreover, the aircraft adversely affects the order of preparation for combat operations built in the Indian Air Force, disrupting all logistics.

The author says that the manufacturers' capabilities of Rafale are too exaggerated, as well as the capabilities of its air-to-air missile weapons.

From the material:

For those funds that have to pay for one Rafale, for its armament and for its maintenance, one could buy or build two Su-30s.

Further frankly mocked the initiative of India on the possible acquisition of American F-16. Earlier, the United States made New Delhi such a proposal, and the Indian authorities promised to think.

From the article:

Place F-16 today in the Indian Air Force can be only one. And this place is a museum of military aviation. Donald Trump's desire to sell these old planes is understandable. But why are they the Indian Air Force? In a possible confrontation with the Pakistan Air Force, they definitely will not help.

If the Indian authorities decide to buy American fighters, then this, according to the author of the material in the Indian media, will eventually be a "hellish logistic mix in the air force." According to him, there are already prerequisites for such a “mixture” - in connection with the acquisition of Rafale from the French.

https://topwar.ru/152422-v-indii-francuzskie-rafale-nazvali-neumestnoj-pokupkoj.html

2 Su-30's for every one Rafale they would of planned on purchasing would mean that for 126 Rafale Dassault's, they could've got 252 Su-30's, and they could've guaranteed they were built in India, and more likely to be delivered on time. Interesting how 'diversifying' their weapons portfolio has completely backfired and the Indian military/MIC has suffered and gotten weaker because of it.  HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) is having a hard time paying their employees on time:

Indian Cabinet of Ministers accused of defense problems due to the abandonment of FGFA

The Indian concept of "Do in India", related to the production of military equipment and weapons, has encountered significant difficulties. These difficulties are financial. Thus, the largest Indian aircraft manufacturer HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) for the first time in a relatively long time was unable to pay wages to thousands of its employees on time.

As it turned out, this is due to the fact that a number of investors decided to withdraw their funds from the assets of HAL. In turn, the decision of investors may be caused by constant difficulties in the choice of the government of a country in rearmament issues: they are going to maintain their own manufacturer in New Delhi, decide to buy aircraft in France, or discuss the possibility of locating production of American F-16s. All this leads to nervousness in large defense enterprises, which can not but reflect on investor sentiment. The board of directors of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited said that in January the situation was reduced to the need to take a loan of 10 billion rupees (about 142 million dollars) to pay wage arrears.

In the Indian media, HAL, as one of the main representatives of the defense industry, was guilty of the Indian government, which decided to withdraw from the joint project with Russia to create a 5th generation FGFA fighter, as well as from contracts for the licensed assembly of other aircraft countries.

From the material in The Economic Times:

The defense company relied on this (fighter production). Instead, workers in the public sector giant have nothing to do now. To date, only the helicopter component still continues to work. Most other lines are practically inactive.

It is noted that it is still unclear whether India will return to the FGFA project, which promised great prospects, or will not.



The head of the HAL trade union association, Suryadevara Chandrashekhar, states that the union’s defense company has sent a letter to the government asking for a clear answer about future plans.

Chandrashehar:

At least we will be able to analyze whether it makes sense to purchase raw materials for aviation production or not, and all projects are completely closed.

https://topwar.ru/152435-v-indii-pravitelstvo-obvinili-v-problemah-oboronki-v-svjazi-s-otkazom-ot-fgfa.html

Well if they ever do actually buy F-16s and operate them with the Indian Air Force they are going to have to spend a lot of money and time and effort to ensure Indian Air Force and Army and Navy personnel can tell the difference between Pakistani and Indian F-16s... that is an accident waiting to happen right there...

Every knowledgeable person knows that Rafale, and Tejas, Jaitapur, Biho, Arjun... are just bullshits which are aimed to appease the pro-West factions and are no way to function as the backbone of Indian Armed Forces.

The issue here is why pro-West faction still survive in India and how Indian people are going to eliminate them for their own progress.

Russia's $5.4 billion contract to supply S-400 systems to India will be fulfilled in 2020-2023.

http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/news/2019/0109/155550432/detail.shtml

This will be interesting because the US claims the purpose of their sanctions against countries that buy major Russian weapons is to stop the purchases and that any waivers are only temporary so the country can see the light and realise what they really need is the US equivalent to the Russian system they are buying...

Don't see this working so India is going to get US sanctions...

Wonder how this will effect existing deals on other systems... C-17, P-8, Ah-64s etc etc... especially when a different political party takes office in the US... will they try to be hard line or more flexible?

You can bet your ass the Indians wont be told who they can or cannot buy from...

Something is quite strange regarding Biho. Japanese claim, that their Type 87 SPAAG is better than Biho because of stabilization with full capabilities to fire on the move and that Biho hardly have any stabilization. It is interesting, when you read about Biho, no stabilization is mentioned. This could mean, that Biho is excellent with firing stationary, but not when firing on the move.

How could K30 Biho beat new Tunguska-M1, which have full stabilization and could effectively fire on the move with guns?

It become more clear now. Biho doesn't have stabilization, so its capabilities to fire on the move are very limited to say it mildly. I realy wonder, how Biho could be better than Tunguska, not to say Pantsir. This is really about political correctnes and to please pro western lobby in Indian army. Even old Shilka have full stabilization.

Looks to me to be a case of diversification of sources rather than anything to do with the merits or otherwise of the product.

Sad that they want to do this to their forces for the illusion of import reliability... AFAIK Russia has never refused to deliver anything the Indians have paid for, and the only problems they ever seem to have was problems with delivery of spare parts and support because they were not included in the original contract...

GarryB wrote:Looks to me to be a case of diversification of sources rather than anything to do with the merits or otherwise of the product.

Sad that they want to do this to their forces for the illusion of import reliability... AFAIK Russia has never refused to deliver anything the Indians have paid for, and the only problems they ever seem to have was problems with delivery of spare parts and support because they were not included in the original contract...

This is what happens when European countries like Russia put all their proverbial eggs in the basket of these third world, morally corrupt nations like India.

We have far more in common with European countries. For instance 10% of Russians exports go to the Netherlands. If the Kremlin tries, they will surely be able to sell weapons to EU countries as well, apart from cash rich Arab states.

Taiwan’s Mirage 2000s ‘need only 6 mins’ to intercept PLA warplanes
Yet since it was commissioned, Taiwan’s Mirage fleet has suffered from low operational readiness, high maintenance costs and higher-than-expected wear and tear, possibly due to the island’s subtropical climate.
If they "suffer" in subtropics, how the Rafales will avoid that in India?
Vietnam & Indonesia also have Su-27/-30s, but I never heard them suffering from hot & humid conditions.
OTH, the Mirages were used mostly in temperate/desert climates, & AFAIK, they weren't deployed to tropical French Guiana/Polynesia to give the designers in their air conditioned offices a valuable feedback:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III#Exports_and_license_production
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5#Operators
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Operational_history
The RoCAF's Mirages have suffered from low operational readiness and high maintenance costs; the harsh environment and high operational tempo had caused higher-than-expected wear and tear. After the presence of cracks in the blades of the aircraft's engines were detected in 2009, Dassault worked with Taiwanese authorities to successfully rectify the issue and provided compensation for the engine damage. By the following year, normal training hours of 15 per month had resumed and the fleet's operational readiness had been restored, after having reportedly dropped to 6 hours per month because of the engine troubles. In addition to this issue, there were considerations of mothballing the entire Mirage fleet because of its high maintenance costs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000#Taiwan

I doubt that the Rafale won't be a deja vu!

This is what happens when European countries like Russia put all their proverbial eggs in the basket of these third world, morally corrupt nations like India.

Hahahahahha... please don't talk about morally corrupt nations and European countries in the same sentence... the centre for moral corruption is Europe... though the US really does make a case for the top crown it has not been doing it as long as those dirty europeans.

We have far more in common with European countries.

No you don't.

They hate you.

For instance 10% of Russians exports go to the Netherlands.

Funny... if you want to find a psychotic racist angry Israeli that is happy to murder for his own entertainment start by looking for one with an American accent... because it is their right to kill and murder and anyone that defends themselves is a terrorist.

Look to South Africa or New Zealand or Australia and most of the hard line racists have dutch accents... that is not an accident either...

If the Kremlin tries, they will surely be able to sell weapons to EU countries as well, apart from cash rich Arab states.

Yeah... they would be just as likely to pass those weapons on to Chechen separatists and Ukrainian "freedom fighters".

Why do you suck up to the west so much... don't you understand you are a challenge... a rival... and they don't share power...

If Europe had its way, Russia today would look much like the Soviet Union would if Hitler had won... but it would be provinces split up amongst the major EU countries... sharing out known resources like oil and gas and minerals, with the locals serving as the manual labour force to dig in the mines...

Look at the UN... sometimes China and India votes with Russia or at least does not vote against it... all the countries of the EU vote against Russia and enjoy doing so... and not just to please their masters in Brussels and London and Washington.

In the EU there are a couple of countries that might be worth good relations with... by all means trade with them all... but don't provide weapons to your enemy if you can help it... and if you do... make them pay top dollar... like Saudi Arabia.

Personally I would go through all the EU meeting notes and take note of the way each country voted when the issue of Russia or Russian sanctions came up... it will be pretty clear from that who Russia can constructively trade with and who they can trade only on very beneficial terms with.

jhelb wrote:If the Kremlin tries, they will surely be able to sell weapons to EU countries as well, apart from cash rich Arab states.

No.

Buying Russian weapons is not profitable for Western politician.

Russia only provide good and effective weapons, not services of money laundering.

GarryB wrote:Hahahahahha... please don't talk about morally corrupt nations and European countries in the same sentence... the centre for moral corruption is Europe... though the US really does make a case for the top crown it has not been doing it as long as those dirty europeans.

Corruption is in order of magnitude higher in third world countries - African, India etc than it is in Europe. In fact corruption keeps them poor.

If Russia continues to deal with these corrupt states, sooner than later Russia will become as much corrupt as these African, Asian countries.

GarryB wrote:They hate you.

They envy Russia, not necessarily hate.

European culture is more or less the same. But imagine African, Hindu etc. Morally bankrupt, intellectually pauper. There is no common ground with rich Russian culture.