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RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
Isos- Posts : 11598
Points : 11566
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°576
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
I wonder why india doesn't invest into the r-27AE which is a ARH version with 130km range. It is a missile better than any other actual russian missile but not produced.
medo- Posts : 4343
Points : 4423
Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
- Post n°577
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
This is quite intersting development. India want to replace R-73 with british ASRAAM missiles, but now they buy more R-73 missiles. BVR missiles are even more interesting. India bought basic R-77 with their Su-30MKI and MiG-21 Bison, which have range of 80 km, what was similar to early versions of AMRAAM. India than went to replace them with Israeli I-Derby ER and domestic Astra AAM. Now they are buying R-27 missiles. Most probaly ER and ET versions to get long range missiles. This make their plans with I-Derby and Astra quite strange. Looks like they didn't bring desired results. Anyway, they will again loose time with integration. Radar Bars-M is russian, but the rest of electronics is not. It is from France, Israel, India, etc. Bars-M was modified for Indian needs, so most probably R-27 missiles are not integrated. And they have to integrate them with non russian electronics. It is even more interesting, when you could see, that chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 and J-11 have better air to air armament and capabilities than Indian Su-30MKI, which on paper is far more modern. New Chinese J-16 with new PL-15 AAMs is far beyond any Indian capability. Russian is now also buying similar R-77M, which could be placed on Su-30SM and Su-35 as well as on Su-57. Indian playing with toxic mix of different components from different states is now striking back mand India now have everything and nothing at the same time. I don't know, how Kh-31P anti-radar missile work with Su-30MKI, which doesn't have russian Pastel RWR, but Indian one. Most probably they have to integrate additional targeting pod to work with them. Considering, that ground control have to warn Indian pilots on incoming AMRAAMs, it looks like Indian RWRs didn't work as they should.
It is great, that Indian air force is aware of embarasing failure with Balakot strike and is now going to repair wrong decisions from the past. But this will not be easy task to change whole structure and make it working properly.
It is great, that Indian air force is aware of embarasing failure with Balakot strike and is now going to repair wrong decisions from the past. But this will not be easy task to change whole structure and make it working properly.
medo- Posts : 4343
Points : 4423
Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
- Post n°578
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
Pinto wrote:Post Balakot, the Defence Ministry had given emergency powers to the armed forces to make up for shortages in weapons and ammunition.
In the wake of Balakot, and the Pakistani Air Force's attempts to hit targets in India, foiled by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman and his colleagues, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has begun looking for new armaments for its fighters.
* For any air force, it is not only about a high-quality fighter, but also, armaments, and in this age, missiles fired from beyond visual range (BVR). Wing Commander Varthaman had fired a short-range Russian R-73 missile at the Pakistan Air Force F-16 on February 27 this year. The IAF has just signed a contract for about 400 R-73s missiles worth around Rs 1,000 crore. The IAF sees the heat-seeking T-73 (with a range of about 30 km) as a low-cost, high-efficiency solution as it can be fired from many of its fighter jets, including the newer MiG-21 Bison, the MiG-29 and the Sukhoi-30MKI.
* India has also asked Russia for more X-31 Anti Radiation Missiles (ARM). These can be fitted on to most Russian designed fighters like the Sukhoi or the MiG-29 and even the French-made Mirage-2000 and are very accurate. These are supersonic air-to-surface missiles and the IAF will get about 250 of them (at a cost of about Rs 1,800 crore) and are effective against radar stations. The IAF had got some ARMs from Russia earlier.
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/strengthening-iaf-after-balakot-india-set-to-acquire-new-russia-armaments/455237
Why is India buying additional Kh-31P anti-radar missiles, when they have already developed their own NGARM anti-radar missile and test it from Su-30MKI?
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-tests-new-anti-radiation-missile-to-destroy-enemy-radars/articleshow/67676064.cms
GarryB- Posts : 40515
Points : 41015
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°579
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
The fact that they mention the accuracy of the Kh-31 suggests that is why they are buying them, and presumably they are not too expensive... their domestic model might be cheaper, but could just as easily be more expensive, but if it is less accurate then having to use more than one missile against a target can make it more expensive as well.
The part talking about the R-73 mentioned its cost, but high efficiency... which suggests that they think it is good enough for the job without being enormously expensive like ASRAAM is.
This is perfectly normal... the Javelin is a reasonable capable system... if they were super cheap they would be a rather good system, but they are not super cheap, they are actually rather expensive, so a system like Metis has similar range and much much cheaper, with a more powerful warhead... you could probably buy 20 or 30 Metis missiles for the price of one Javelin, which makes the Metis more affordable to actually use in combat against a range of targets.
On paper the Javelin is superior, but in practise most of that capability is a bit moot.
Equally the ASRAAM likely has a better seeker than the R-73 model the Indians are using but the R-73 seems to hit targets often enough to make it a useful missile.
The part talking about the R-73 mentioned its cost, but high efficiency... which suggests that they think it is good enough for the job without being enormously expensive like ASRAAM is.
This is perfectly normal... the Javelin is a reasonable capable system... if they were super cheap they would be a rather good system, but they are not super cheap, they are actually rather expensive, so a system like Metis has similar range and much much cheaper, with a more powerful warhead... you could probably buy 20 or 30 Metis missiles for the price of one Javelin, which makes the Metis more affordable to actually use in combat against a range of targets.
On paper the Javelin is superior, but in practise most of that capability is a bit moot.
Equally the ASRAAM likely has a better seeker than the R-73 model the Indians are using but the R-73 seems to hit targets often enough to make it a useful missile.
Isos- Posts : 11598
Points : 11566
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°580
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
medo wrote:This is quite intersting development. India want to replace R-73 with british ASRAAM missiles, but now they buy more R-73 missiles. BVR missiles are even more interesting. India bought basic R-77 with their Su-30MKI and MiG-21 Bison, which have range of 80 km, what was similar to early versions of AMRAAM. India than went to replace them with Israeli I-Derby ER and domestic Astra AAM. Now they are buying R-27 missiles. Most probaly ER and ET versions to get long range missiles. This make their plans with I-Derby and Astra quite strange. Looks like they didn't bring desired results. Anyway, they will again loose time with integration. Radar Bars-M is russian, but the rest of electronics is not. It is from France, Israel, India, etc. Bars-M was modified for Indian needs, so most probably R-27 missiles are not integrated. And they have to integrate them with non russian electronics. It is even more interesting, when you could see, that chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 and J-11 have better air to air armament and capabilities than Indian Su-30MKI, which on paper is far more modern. New Chinese J-16 with new PL-15 AAMs is far beyond any Indian capability. Russian is now also buying similar R-77M, which could be placed on Su-30SM and Su-35 as well as on Su-57. Indian playing with toxic mix of different components from different states is now striking back mand India now have everything and nothing at the same time. I don't know, how Kh-31P anti-radar missile work with Su-30MKI, which doesn't have russian Pastel RWR, but Indian one. Most probably they have to integrate additional targeting pod to work with them. Considering, that ground control have to warn Indian pilots on incoming AMRAAMs, it looks like Indian RWRs didn't work as they should.
It is great, that Indian air force is aware of embarasing failure with Balakot strike and is now going to repair wrong decisions from the past. But this will not be easy task to change whole structure and make it working properly.
Russians said no for british and israeli missiles. If Indians do it by themselves they will have to pay russians much more for future maintenance.
Indian bars-M can use r-27 from the begining, they have a huge stock of r27 for MKIs. The weapon system and radar are russian made.
Pl 12 which is more used than pl15 uses russian seeker, the same as indian r77. Pl 15 is a long range missile that they will try to use against big planes.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Join date : 2010-10-24
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- Post n°581
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
Isos wrote:Russians said no for british and israeli missiles. If Indians do it by themselves they will have to pay russians much more for future maintenance.
Indian bars-M can use r-27 from the begining, they have a huge stock of r27 for MKIs. The weapon system and radar are russian made.
Pl 12 which is more used than pl15 uses russian seeker, the same as indian r77. Pl 15 is a long range missile that they will try to use against big planes.
You are correct, SU-30MKI have R-27 missiles, they bought them from Ukraine, but they are actually very rarely used. They mostly use R-77 and now they also have Astra missiles. Urgent buy of R-27, R-77 and R-73 missiles is in that way quite interesting. Of course Russia say no tom instal british ASRAAM to Su-30MKI as they don't want to give their keys to Brits to integrate their missiles with Bars-M radar. Oposite is also true, Brits, French and Israelis don't want to give keys for their electronics to install russian weapons.
In Indian Su-30MKI only radar and IRST are russian made. Central computer and weapon control system are made in India as well as tarang RWR. Navigation system is French Sagem, data link and EW equipment is from Israel, etc. In this mix of different providers of components, every provider have to give their keys of electronics, that any new weapon could be integrated and this is why this process in India is slow and all providers want to keep their key codes secret to others and there is always a problem of compatibility between components. We see this problem in Balakot, where all israeli made Spice-2000 guided bombs miss their targets and hit another hill and were dropped from modernized Indian Mirage-2000 jets.
PL-12 have range of 100 km, what is longer than with old R-77. Max. range of french Mica AAM is also 80 km as with R-77. India now got with I-Derby ER and Astra missiles with similar range as PL-12, while China is arming their J-10, J-16 and J-20 with PL-15 missiles with cca 200 km range.
R-27ER is still Indian longest range AAM and is quite surprising, that in time of Balakot tensions Su-30MKI were not armed with them, when they know well, that PAF F-16 and JF-17 have missiles with longer range than R-77 and Mica. With R-27ER/ET, Su-30MKI could fire back, when PAF F-16 launched their AMRAAMs against them.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Join date : 2010-10-24
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- Post n°582
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
It is quite interesting comparison between Indian Su-30MKI and Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2. On paper Indian Su-30MKI is far better with Bars-M PESA radar, canards, TVC engines and western electronics. On the other hand Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 are fully Russian jets. They both use the same russian armament, R-73, R-77, R-27ER/ET AAMs, KAB-500Kr, KAB-1500Kr, Kh-29T, Kh-59ME/MK, Kh-31A/P. Indian Su-30MKI also use KAB-500L and KAB-1500L with Israeli litening targeting pod, while Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 use chinese LS-500J laser guided bombs with their domestic targeting pods. China also integrate PL-12 and PL-8 AAMs and KD-88/A TV/IIR guided cruise missiles with range of 200 km. India integrate Astra AAM and is in proces of integration of NGARM and Brahmos missiles. China make their intgrations quite quickly as planes are fully russian and have no problem with russian key codes. They also integrate Baidou SATNAV in them, domestic KL700A ECM pod to work together with russian ECM pods and their own data link. Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have standard russian IFDL and air to ground data link, so they are capable of group working. Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have russian IFDL and air to ground data link, but are now integrated into AFNET network, but this is only air to ground data link and with israeli data link to work with A-50EI.
Su-30MK2 with PL-8 and PL-12
Su-30MKK with KD-88 training round
Su-30MKK with additional ECM pod
India is only now bringing their Su-30MKI to the level of Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2, which they have for quite some time now. Su-30 are good strike planes for China and they are not much more interested in upgrading them as they now receive far more capable J-16 in large numbers, together with specialized EW version J-16D and with newer and more capable armament.
Su-30MK2 with PL-8 and PL-12
Su-30MKK with KD-88 training round
Su-30MKK with additional ECM pod
India is only now bringing their Su-30MKI to the level of Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2, which they have for quite some time now. Su-30 are good strike planes for China and they are not much more interested in upgrading them as they now receive far more capable J-16 in large numbers, together with specialized EW version J-16D and with newer and more capable armament.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Join date : 2010-10-24
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- Post n°583
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
Points : 7341
Join date : 2016-11-06
- Post n°584
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
Medo in terms of performance, what are characteristic differences between the two jets? Bars M vs N001VEP?
Isos- Posts : 11598
Points : 11566
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°585
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
The good thing for India is that Pakistan used it two main fighter's radars where india had lot of EW in listening mode as the amraam was used so f-16 radar was on war mode just like the jf-17.
Now they can optimize the jammer on their frequency band.
Now they can optimize the jammer on their frequency band.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
- Post n°586
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
miketheterrible wrote:Medo in terms of performance, what are characteristic differences between the two jets? Bars M vs N001VEP?
Su-30MKI have engines with TVC, engines in both Su-30MKI and SU-30MKK/MK2 have equal thrust. Both have 12 hardpoints and carry up to 8 tons of payload. Russian armament is more or less the same. Bars-M is PESA radar nad have max range of 400 km, targets track at 200 km. It can track 15 targets simultaenously and engage 4 targets simultaneously. N001VEP is mechanical radar with higher peak power at 6 kW. Its max range is 350 km, it could detect 3 m2 target at 150 km. N001VEP track 10 targets simultaneousloy and engage 4 targets simultaneously. Both radars have air to air, air to sea and air to ground modes.
Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have full russian data link complex with IFDL and air to ground, so they could work in groups, with AWACS planes and IADS. China also install their own data link to improve their network capabilities. Chinese Flankers have russian Pastel RWR, chaffs and flares and Gardenia/Sorbtsia ECM pods. China also add their domestic ECM pods to increase their ECM capabilities. Basic AA weapons are R-27ER/ET, R-77 snd R-73 as with Indian Su-30MKI, but China also integrate their domestic PL-8 short range AAM and PL-12 medium range AAM. PL-12 have more versions and B and C versions have better domestic ARH head and are more capable than export SD-10 used on JF-17. Indian Astra use the same russian ARH head and data link as R-77 and this is why it is easily integrated to Su-30MKI. In that way Chinese Su-30MKK/MKI have better missile with PL-12, than Indian Su-30MKI with Astra. Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have russian data link complex neither russian RWR and ECM. Indian networking is actually big questionmark. They made data netwotk AFNET, where operations are guided from ground centers. Su-30MKI have data link with A-50EI as both are Israeli equipment, but there is a good question, if their networking is on the same level as in Chinese air force. We could already see, that chinese networking between ZDK-03 AWACS and JF-17 in PAF work just fine, when they shot down Indian MiG-21Bison.
Regarding air to ground capabilities, they use the same Russian armament. Indian now is integratind domestic Brahmos anti ship missile and NGARM anti radar missile. China integrate domestic laser guided bombs and KD-88 cruise missile with 200 km range with TV or IIR homing head for night and all weather strikes. China have similar anti ship missile to Brahmos YJ-12 with range up to 400 km flying at Mach 4, which could be used by Su-30, but their main users will be H-6, JH-7A and J-16. India is planing to integrate israeli gliding guided bomb Spice 2000, which could glide up to 60 km, on Su-30MKI. China also have their own family of guided gliding bombs, but is not known, if they are also in use with Su-30 or they are in use with their domestic jets.
Although chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have less sofisticated radar and doesn't have engines with TVC, but they work in better data network with Chinese AWACS planes, IADS, drones, etc and have better armament. Other story is J-16. Russian upgraded Su-30SM with new russian armament is equal or better, Indian Su-30MKI is not.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Join date : 2010-10-24
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- Post n°587
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
To continue in this topic, in this after balakot strike border clash, it could be seen, that Chinese data link network between ZDK-03 AWACS and JF-17 worked smothly as well oiled machine. On the other hand Indian data link network leave bitter taste. All we have here are Indian stories.
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-officer-told-wg-cdr-abhinandan-to-turn-back-but-he-couldnt-hear-her/213337/
MiG-21Bison have tactical data link, but as it seems Abhinandan didn't have wider picture of situation and was on his own. It looks like he has only voice communication with ground control. Next, ground control have to warn Su-30MKI pilots with voice communications for incoming AMRAAM missiles. Where is data link? And at last, ground control vectored Su-30MKI to Pakistani jets which cross the border, which were far away and could not launch missiles back at F-16, instead of Mirage-2000, which were far closer to Pakistani jets and couls easily engage them with Mica missiles. It looks like Indian data network doesn't work that well. Without working data link network, Indian Su-30MKI is very vulnerable against chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 in their well working data link network.
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-officer-told-wg-cdr-abhinandan-to-turn-back-but-he-couldnt-hear-her/213337/
New Delhi: “Turn cold, turn cold”, a young woman IAF controller sitting in a secure control room in Punjab shouted repeatedly, exactly a month ago. But Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman could not hear anything inside his MiG-21 Bison.
Not realising that he had crossed the Line of Control, Abhinandan locked on to an F-16 of the Pakistan Air Force and fired his R-73 air-to-air missile seconds before his plane was shot at. In a matter of seconds, both aircraft went tumbling down into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
What the woman officer was telling the Wing Commander was to abandon and return as he had crossed over, top sources in the Indian Air Force told ThePrint.
An analysis of the dogfight of 27 February by the IAF has revealed that Abhinandan could not hear the command being given by the officer. The IAF believes this could be because of radio jamming by Pakistan.
Sources said that around 9:30 am, IAF flight controllers noticed that a large package of PAF aircraft had taken off in a matter of minutes. These aircraft, numbering about 24, included at least 11 F-16s, and got airborne in a span of 15 minutes.
Sources said more than half of them headed to the LoC, while a few remained along the international border.
While India’s Sukhoi Su-30s were on a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) in the Rajasthan sector, two Mirage 2000s were on CAP at the LoC.
The officer in question was sitting in the control room at the time, giving instructions and coordinating the response to the challenge thrown by the Pakistan Air Force. She realised that things could get difficult and immediately ordered the scampering of more Su-30s and MiG-21s, which took off from the Srinagar and Awantipur air bases.
She alerted the Indian pilots to the use of F-16s, which have better beyond visual range or BVR missiles than the Sukhois and the MiGs.
It was her alertness and instructions that allowed the Indian pilots to take preventive measures and escape the AMRAAM missiles fired by the F-16s.
MiG-21Bison have tactical data link, but as it seems Abhinandan didn't have wider picture of situation and was on his own. It looks like he has only voice communication with ground control. Next, ground control have to warn Su-30MKI pilots with voice communications for incoming AMRAAM missiles. Where is data link? And at last, ground control vectored Su-30MKI to Pakistani jets which cross the border, which were far away and could not launch missiles back at F-16, instead of Mirage-2000, which were far closer to Pakistani jets and couls easily engage them with Mica missiles. It looks like Indian data network doesn't work that well. Without working data link network, Indian Su-30MKI is very vulnerable against chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 in their well working data link network.
Isos- Posts : 11598
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Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°588
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
MiG-21Bison have tactical data link, but as it seems Abhinandan didn't have wider picture of situation and was on his own. It looks like he has only voice communication with ground control. Next, ground control have to warn Su-30MKI pilots with voice communications for incoming AMRAAM missiles. Where is data link? And at last, ground control vectored Su-30MKI to Pakistani jets which cross the border, which were far away and could not launch missiles back at F-16, instead of Mirage-2000, which were far closer to Pakistani jets and couls easily engage them with Mica missiles. It looks like Indian data network doesn't work that well. Without working data link network, Indian Su-30MKI is very vulnerable against chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 in their well working data link network.
India sending mig-21 means they were not ready for the attack. They should have had at least 24 MKI and 12 mi-29 ready for any intruders after they bombed in Pakistan. Indians are stuck in the past and think they will be always better than pakistani without training and preparation. Good lesson for them.
That mig-21 pilot is an asshole. He should have never followed alone the pakistani jets into a clear ambush. Israeli used similar tactics against Syrians and Egyptians and they are very well known by any decent air force. And he was probavly told by the sukhoi pilots what was waiting for him on the radio.
In terms of integration, the mki is the most awful plane on earth. Israeli, french, indian made and now british equipment. All are russians enemies (at least on the weapons market) so they may give pakistani lot of usefull informations just to help them destroy sukhois so that they can sell more of their own systems. India is the biggest market on world. Sukhoi should have never let other countries implement their productions into the mki.
If the mirages were that close, why were they not engaged by pakistani. They are not stealth at all.
medo- Posts : 4343
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- Post n°589
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
India sent MiG-21 Bison jets, because they are stationed in the nearest air bases to border. Su-30MKI are based deeper inside India. I would not say, that this Indian pilot was whatever. It was whole Indian air force structure, that sucks. Fact is, that india colaborate with Israel in creating their data link network, which will be ground centred. MiG-21Bison have tactical data link and it is not old soviet GCI lazur. It is Indian or israeli one. MiG-21Bisons were armed with a pair of R-77 and a pair of R-73 AAMs. Normaly Indian ground control would vector fighter pairs into proper point to launch R-77 missiles to intercept PAF jets inside Indian air space, but they didn't and this Indian pilot than follow PAF jet visualy in Pakistani air space to launch short range R-73 AAM and got shot down. He have only voice communication with ground control and he lost it too by jamming. PAF do their job fine to vector JF-17 to shot down IAF MiG-21 in Pakistani air space with SD-10 missile.
Why India didn't vector Mirage-2000 against PAF jets is a good question for IAF. It looks like they have bad control over situation in the air. PAF on the other hand have good control through their AWACS planes and ground control and they see well, that Mirages are not vectored against them, but Sukhois are and launched AMRAAMs against incoming Sukhois to keep them on distance and they succede. Sukhois didn't come that close, that they could launch missiles against PAF jets, which than already return to Pakistani side of border.
India also doesn't have proper IADS. It is very hard to build it, when you have uncompatible complexes like S-300/400, Barak and Spyder and now they are also buying South Korean Biho. Result we see, when Spyder shot down their own Mi-17. To repair bad decisions from the past, it will be very hard work for India. In that time others around will not stand still and wait for India, but further improve already well working capabilities. India is too much dependent on foreign technology from different providers, like Israel, France, UK, US, Russia and at the end this mix doesn't work as they think it will.
Why India didn't vector Mirage-2000 against PAF jets is a good question for IAF. It looks like they have bad control over situation in the air. PAF on the other hand have good control through their AWACS planes and ground control and they see well, that Mirages are not vectored against them, but Sukhois are and launched AMRAAMs against incoming Sukhois to keep them on distance and they succede. Sukhois didn't come that close, that they could launch missiles against PAF jets, which than already return to Pakistani side of border.
India also doesn't have proper IADS. It is very hard to build it, when you have uncompatible complexes like S-300/400, Barak and Spyder and now they are also buying South Korean Biho. Result we see, when Spyder shot down their own Mi-17. To repair bad decisions from the past, it will be very hard work for India. In that time others around will not stand still and wait for India, but further improve already well working capabilities. India is too much dependent on foreign technology from different providers, like Israel, France, UK, US, Russia and at the end this mix doesn't work as they think it will.
George1- Posts : 18514
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- Post n°590
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
medo wrote:It is quite interesting comparison between Indian Su-30MKI and Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2. On paper Indian Su-30MKI is far better with Bars-M PESA radar, canards, TVC engines and western electronics. On the other hand Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 are fully Russian jets. They both use the same russian armament, R-73, R-77, R-27ER/ET AAMs, KAB-500Kr, KAB-1500Kr, Kh-29T, Kh-59ME/MK, Kh-31A/P. Indian Su-30MKI also use KAB-500L and KAB-1500L with Israeli litening targeting pod, while Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 use chinese LS-500J laser guided bombs with their domestic targeting pods. China also integrate PL-12 and PL-8 AAMs and KD-88/A TV/IIR guided cruise missiles with range of 200 km. India integrate Astra AAM and is in proces of integration of NGARM and Brahmos missiles. China make their intgrations quite quickly as planes are fully russian and have no problem with russian key codes. They also integrate Baidou SATNAV in them, domestic KL700A ECM pod to work together with russian ECM pods and their own data link. Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2 have standard russian IFDL and air to ground data link, so they are capable of group working. Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have russian IFDL and air to ground data link, but are now integrated into AFNET network, but this is only air to ground data link and with israeli data link to work with A-50EI.
Su-30MK2 with PL-8 and PL-12
Su-30MKK with KD-88 training round
Su-30MKK with additional ECM pod
India is only now bringing their Su-30MKI to the level of Chinese Su-30MKK/MK2, which they have for quite some time now. Su-30 are good strike planes for China and they are not much more interested in upgrading them as they now receive far more capable J-16 in large numbers, together with specialized EW version J-16D and with newer and more capable armament.
Chinese use their Su-30MKKs as bombers for their Navy
medo- Posts : 4343
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
George1 wrote:Chinese use their Su-30MKKs as bombers for their Navy
No, Chinese NAVY use Su-30MK2. Chinese air force use SU-30MKK as ground attack fighter bomber, because its N001VE radar doesn't have air to sea modes. They were added to N001VEP radar in Su-30MK2. KD-88 missile used by Su-30MKK is land attack cruise missile, not anti-ship missile. Indian air force doesn't have equivalent to KD-88 cruise missile.
George1- Posts : 18514
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
India has signed a contract for the purchase of 1,000 air-to-air guided missiles in Russia
As reported on July 30, 2019, the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) of the Russian Federation, India and Russia signed a contract for the supply of about 1,000 missiles to India. “Some time ago, fairly large contracts for aviation missiles were signed, involving the supply of about 1,000 missiles of various purposes,” the FSMTC reports.
In turn, the magazine "Jane's Defense Weekly" in the article Rahul Bedi, Dmitry Fediushko "India signs USD700 million deal with Russia for 1,000 additional air-to-air missiles" reported that military sources in New Delhi and Moscow confirmed the fact of signing in early July 2019, agreements on the purchase by India in Russia of 1000 air-to-air guided missiles worth about $ 700 million.
The delivery will include 300 medium-range air-to-air missiles of the R-27 series, 300 short-range R-73E missiles and 400 medium-range RVV-AE missiles. The R-27 series missiles belong to the Р-27Р1/ЭР1 and Р-27Т1/ЭТ1 modifications and are intended for armament of Su-30MKI and MiG-29 UPG fighters of the Indian Air Force, RVV-AE and R-73E missiles. in addition to these two types of fighter jets, the MiG-21 UPG fighters are also arming themselves. Also, the Indian Air Force are working to integrate the R-73E missiles into the weapons of Dassault Mirage 2000H fighters.
A day earlier, on July 29, 2019, the Indian news agency ANI reported, citing sources in the Indian government, that the Indian side had signed a contract with Russia for the purchase of a large batch of medium-range air missiles of the R-27 class of Rs. 1,500 crore (about 217.5 million dollars). Earlier in June, the Indian government reported that the planned purchase of another 700 air-to-air guided missiles for the Indian Air Force in India — 300 short-range R-73E missiles and 400 medium-range RVV-AE missiles — was reported by the Indian government; India’s supply of these missiles has not been reported.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3726399.html
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
I wonder why india doesn't invest into the r-27AE which is a ARH version with 130km range. It is a missile better than any other actual russian missile but not produced.
We have read a lot about the R-27AE ARH missile but has anyone actually seen it?
It has often been suggested as simply a combination of the R-27 with the ARH seeker of the R-77, but if no one has paid for the development or integrated it into an aircraft design, perhaps the reason India didn't buy R-27AEs is because they only exist in mockup form and paper designs.
Why spend money investing on an improve R-27AE when you can just buy R-77 instead, plus the new R-77M is just about to enter Russian service with even better range and likely upgraded electronics... so buy R-77s now, and newer missiles when available.
I would think with its experience with Brahmos that a joint development with India and Russia to make new very long range scramjet powered AAMs would be a nobrainer too...
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
Russia has proposed to India to re-engine all Su-30MKI's with the AL-41F1S engines
https://aviation21.ru/rossiya-predlozhila-indii-zamenit-dvigateli-na-vsex-samolyotax-su-30mki/
https://aviation21.ru/rossiya-predlozhila-indii-zamenit-dvigateli-na-vsex-samolyotax-su-30mki/
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- Post n°595
Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
Cyberspec wrote:Russia has proposed to India to re-engine all Su-30MKI's with the AL-41F1S engines
https://aviation21.ru/rossiya-predlozhila-indii-zamenit-dvigateli-na-vsex-samolyotax-su-30mki/
This deal must be signed as soon as possible, supply and change of engines of 272 su30mki and the 18 more su30mki india is going to sign in october 2019 might be with AL41 engines
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The two nations have engineered a scheme under which they can make transactions that evade sanctions imposed by Washington
With new agreements in the works and a way to skirt US sanctions, the Kremlin is hoping to grow its backlog of major arms deals with India, which currently stands at an impressive US$14 billion.
New Delhi is expected to cement several arms deals with Moscow at the next session of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission on military industrial cooperation, to be held in October, AINonline reported.
These would include a contract on 18 additional kits for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI heavyweight multirole fighter for assembly at HAL’s Nasik plant. This would bring the grand total of such aircraft procured since 1999 to 240.
Additionally, the Indian Air Force would receive “over 20” used MiG-29 lightweight interceptors from the Russian Air and Space Force for their subsequent conversion into Mig-29UPG multirole aircraft, the report said.
Apart from the fighters, New Delhi is seeking to procure about 1,000 air-to-air missiles. The local media has specifically reported on 300 R-73E and 400 RVV-AE (exportable R-77) weapons developed by the Vympel design bureau.
Reports also emerged recently concerning the procurement of R-27s worth US$217 million. The most recent R-27 purchase was in 2013, when around 400 were bought from Ukraine, where a production line is located.
Since then, Russia’s Tactical Missile Corporation (TRV) has mastered production of the R-27 and improved R-73, sometimes referred to as the R-74, at its own facilities.
It is interesting to note that the decision to purchase Russian missiles comes after an earlier announcement that India would test MBDA missiles on the Su-30MKI. However, no request for permission to do this was filed with Moscow by India, the report said.
New Delhi is also looking to set up local production of the Igla-S shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missile in a manner similar to the recently agreed deal for Kalashnikov assault rifles.
This burst of new purchases in Russia is at least partially due to the fact that Moscow and New Delhi have recently worked out a new set of payment methods and procedures that enables arms deals between them within the conditions of the newly introduced US sanctions such as CAATSA.
In July, Dmitri Shugayev, who heads FSVTS, Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told journalists that the two engineered a scheme under which they can make transactions in a way that evades sanctions imposed by Washington, the report said.
A mutually agreed set of payment methods and mechanisms was developed specifically for the S-400 contract, involving the national banking systems and special-purpose vehicles.
Yet another major development in relations between the two nations has been the establishment of a joint after-sales support group under the umbrella of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission on military-industrial cooperation.
“We agreed to expedite entering the interstate agreement on joint production of spare parts and expendables on Indian soil,” FSVTS deputy head Vladimir Drozhzhov told AINonline.
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/article/india-to-add-more-russian-multi-role-fighters/
With new agreements in the works and a way to skirt US sanctions, the Kremlin is hoping to grow its backlog of major arms deals with India, which currently stands at an impressive US$14 billion.
New Delhi is expected to cement several arms deals with Moscow at the next session of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission on military industrial cooperation, to be held in October, AINonline reported.
These would include a contract on 18 additional kits for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI heavyweight multirole fighter for assembly at HAL’s Nasik plant. This would bring the grand total of such aircraft procured since 1999 to 240.
Additionally, the Indian Air Force would receive “over 20” used MiG-29 lightweight interceptors from the Russian Air and Space Force for their subsequent conversion into Mig-29UPG multirole aircraft, the report said.
Apart from the fighters, New Delhi is seeking to procure about 1,000 air-to-air missiles. The local media has specifically reported on 300 R-73E and 400 RVV-AE (exportable R-77) weapons developed by the Vympel design bureau.
Reports also emerged recently concerning the procurement of R-27s worth US$217 million. The most recent R-27 purchase was in 2013, when around 400 were bought from Ukraine, where a production line is located.
Since then, Russia’s Tactical Missile Corporation (TRV) has mastered production of the R-27 and improved R-73, sometimes referred to as the R-74, at its own facilities.
It is interesting to note that the decision to purchase Russian missiles comes after an earlier announcement that India would test MBDA missiles on the Su-30MKI. However, no request for permission to do this was filed with Moscow by India, the report said.
New Delhi is also looking to set up local production of the Igla-S shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missile in a manner similar to the recently agreed deal for Kalashnikov assault rifles.
This burst of new purchases in Russia is at least partially due to the fact that Moscow and New Delhi have recently worked out a new set of payment methods and procedures that enables arms deals between them within the conditions of the newly introduced US sanctions such as CAATSA.
In July, Dmitri Shugayev, who heads FSVTS, Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told journalists that the two engineered a scheme under which they can make transactions in a way that evades sanctions imposed by Washington, the report said.
A mutually agreed set of payment methods and mechanisms was developed specifically for the S-400 contract, involving the national banking systems and special-purpose vehicles.
Yet another major development in relations between the two nations has been the establishment of a joint after-sales support group under the umbrella of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission on military-industrial cooperation.
“We agreed to expedite entering the interstate agreement on joint production of spare parts and expendables on Indian soil,” FSVTS deputy head Vladimir Drozhzhov told AINonline.
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/08/article/india-to-add-more-russian-multi-role-fighters/
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
I would like to hear more details about that Kalashnikov production deal... are they only producing AK-203s, which are AKMs upgraded to AK-74M standard to AK-103, and then further upgraded to AK-12 level with improved kit mounting options and improved mechanisms?
Or are they making AK-308 which is basically an AK12 in 7.62x51mm NATO calibre... or both?
I would think both would make a lot of sense, with the 7.62x39mm round for close in use in urban areas, while in more open terrain they also have SiG model AR-15 clones in 5.56mm calibre, but as recent experience in deserts and mountains where targets can be seen at extended distances (ie 600m plus) at which range the 7.62x39mm and 5.56mm rounds are ineffectual, that a 7.62x51mm round would be rather useful...
Or are they making AK-308 which is basically an AK12 in 7.62x51mm NATO calibre... or both?
I would think both would make a lot of sense, with the 7.62x39mm round for close in use in urban areas, while in more open terrain they also have SiG model AR-15 clones in 5.56mm calibre, but as recent experience in deserts and mountains where targets can be seen at extended distances (ie 600m plus) at which range the 7.62x39mm and 5.56mm rounds are ineffectual, that a 7.62x51mm round would be rather useful...
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
GarryB wrote:I would like to hear more details about that Kalashnikov production deal... are they only producing AK-203s, which are AKMs upgraded to AK-74M standard to AK-103, and then further upgraded to AK-12 level with improved kit mounting options and improved mechanisms?
Or are they making AK-308 which is basically an AK12 in 7.62x51mm NATO calibre... or both?
I would think both would make a lot of sense, with the 7.62x39mm round for close in use in urban areas, while in more open terrain they also have SiG model AR-15 clones in 5.56mm calibre, but as recent experience in deserts and mountains where targets can be seen at extended distances (ie 600m plus) at which range the 7.62x39mm and 5.56mm rounds are ineffectual, that a 7.62x51mm round would be rather useful...
As per reports it seems only AK203 only but you never know inside details of deal with Russia which mostly remain classified in details
https://www.janes.com/article/87011/india-russia-inaugurate-manufacturing-plant-for-ak-203-assault-rifle
Recent example being that India signed R27 deal but sources tells that many versions of long range and medium n short range have been signed. i have seen many comments saying why no longer versions were not procured but the truth lies classified and this happens in many deal with Russia
another glaring example being indian signed 5 batteries of s400 and no further details but cost amounts to over 4 b $ though China got at different rates
George1- Posts : 18514
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
Contract for the modernization of Indian Project 15 destroyers
As the Government of India reported on September 12, 2019, the Indian Ministry of Defense signed a contract with the Russian joint-stock company Rosoboronexport for the modernization of the Kashmir (Shtil) anti-aircraft missile systems and the Fregat-MAE radar systems on three Project 15 Indian destroyers (type Delhi). The work will be carried out in India, with the involvement of the Indian industry as a supplier of a number of components.
Recall that destroyers of the Indian project 15 were designed in the 1980s with the leading role of the Northern Design Bureau (St. Petersburg) and are equipped almost entirely with weapons and equipment made in Russia. The lead destroyer of Project 15 D 61 Delhi was laid down at the Indian shipyard Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) in Mumbai in December 1992 and delivered to the Indian Navy in 1997, and two other ships (D 60 Mysore and D 62 Mumbai) were introduced in operation 1999 and 2001.
It can be assumed that the modernization of the Kashmir (Shtil) air defense system on destroyers of this type will include the transition to 9M317E series anti-aircraft guided missiles.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3773629.html
As the Government of India reported on September 12, 2019, the Indian Ministry of Defense signed a contract with the Russian joint-stock company Rosoboronexport for the modernization of the Kashmir (Shtil) anti-aircraft missile systems and the Fregat-MAE radar systems on three Project 15 Indian destroyers (type Delhi). The work will be carried out in India, with the involvement of the Indian industry as a supplier of a number of components.
Recall that destroyers of the Indian project 15 were designed in the 1980s with the leading role of the Northern Design Bureau (St. Petersburg) and are equipped almost entirely with weapons and equipment made in Russia. The lead destroyer of Project 15 D 61 Delhi was laid down at the Indian shipyard Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) in Mumbai in December 1992 and delivered to the Indian Navy in 1997, and two other ships (D 60 Mysore and D 62 Mumbai) were introduced in operation 1999 and 2001.
It can be assumed that the modernization of the Kashmir (Shtil) air defense system on destroyers of this type will include the transition to 9M317E series anti-aircraft guided missiles.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3773629.html
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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Re: RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts
another glaring example being indian signed 5 batteries of s400 and no further details but cost amounts to over 4 b $ though China got at different rates
I rather suspect if India is paying more for their S-400s it is because China is getting and paying for the bare minimum deal, and the Indians are perhaps buying all the extras and perhaps the production rights to perhaps produce the missiles themselves... or mostly anyway.