North Macedonia inter-ethnic violence

zg18 wrote:Thank you for interesting and honest answer.

I mean , Albania should do more effort to familiarize neighbours about itself. News from Albania , honestly are perceived like news from India or South Africa.

Second problem , are Kosovo Albanians , with all respect to them , they are not doing Albanians from Albania like you any favor in the region (you are perceived through them by others) , and they are not of good reputation (Kanon of Leka Dukagjini , kanun , vendetta , organized crime , position of women , arranged marriages from childhood etc.).

I`m sorry if sound too uncomfortably honest  , but , what the hell , even forums like this we can use to understand each other and raise awareness about certain things.

I've killed all my prejudices about Albania while driving through it (the whole of it, from Montenegro - to Macedonia) with my Hieromonk friend. I expected troubles, but had none.
Albanians are nice people (in Albania), not quite like those we have here (no offense intended really, but it's true).
Since then, whenever I go to Ohrid, I take a day or two and visit Pogradec and have some Ohrid trout (you can't get it here, it's forbidden by law).
And I always plan my visit on Sundays so that I can take the kids to Liturgy in the morning. The priest in Pogradec is one of the nicest guys I've met. A real Orthodox Christian, doesn't care about nationality, only cares about Christianity.
As it should be. Always comes to Sveti Naum on "Slavas" as well. Listening to the Liturgy in Albanian is quite a treat for me...

zg18 wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

zg18 wrote:Honestly , i don`t know how Albanians stick together as one people with all religious and dialectal (Gheg - Tosk) differences , that is quite un-Balkanic....

Well basically because of Communism. Uncle Enver mashed up everything. Now we can't unthread some threads, I personally would like clear cut. So my son dates a Northern Albanian girl. I loathe them. Then it was fun times, since we were all stuck under the red eye. Now we have no qualms hacking eachother. But this is within Albania. Kosovars on the other side, look like people from the Moon. Macedonian Albanophones like people from Mars. And then you have exiles, who aren't people at all.

Geg/Toskë is indeed about a perceived Christian Rift. From Korça down you have originally orthodox people (before the conversions), From Korça and up you have mainly catholic people originally. Then you have the Epirotes, orthodox almost impossible to tell them out from Greeks, Moreans that were a mixed bag, with a lot moving out of Greece and keeping a Griko/Arberesh cult in southern Italy. But there is also about who's what. Toskë people (like myself) are generally more sleuth and usually more down to biz. Northerners have this in group/out group logic that sends us all 50 years aback when their head starts to jam. See the whole Kanun revival. It took the communists 10 years to stop that crap with very heavy hands, and now it's all over the country and even Europe. It's worse than the Sicilian Faide.

On Pandeli (Gabeli) Majko (means Gyspy) and his we ought to defend Albanians everywhere, that's the usual knee jerk reaction, his native region Gjirokastra usually has given Albania notable people with a VERY distinctive chauvinist method (Enver Hoxha being from the same neighbourhood albeit 50 years earlier).

However Pandeli is a sham, former commie, then socialist? then just crap. Don't ming his babbling.

Thank you for interesting and honest answer.

I mean , Albania should do more effort to familiarize neighbours about itself. News from Albania , honestly are perceived like news from India or South Africa.

Second problem , are Kosovo Albanians , with all respect to them , they are not doing Albanians from Albania like you any favor in the region (you are perceived through them by others) , and they are not of good reputation (Kanon of Leka Dukagjini , kanun , vendetta , organized crime , position of women , arranged marriages from childhood etc.).

I`m sorry if sound too uncomfortably honest  , but , what the hell , even forums like this we can use to understand each other and raise awareness about certain things.

Now you know why with all our "might" we did nothing to help those idiots during Communism. It changed drastically when Enver died, but generally Yugoslavs didn't seem to notice that input. However what broke the balance was the fact that Yugoslavia went down and we were akin to Zimbabwe and stashed with weapons. Primitive, yes, but an AK is and AK.

So everything came down with the 97 crisis, that we created on our own, albeit I have people on the record saying that they would meet people from the US, say that the Ponzi scheme was going to blow, and they still would nod for more "funds". The other thing you couldn't say openly back at MP.net was that the first batches of KLA goons were trained and formed with Italian and US input. Some came directly from Germany. After Operation Pelikan, the Italian base in Durrës was akin to Afghanistan. People would be trained there and sent to inflitrate Yugoslavia. Worse, now even our press is all proud of how we helped form "freedom fighters".

I really wanted to have that discussion at MP.net because of a huge influx of US-alboz ignorants but what can I say. Well that's also a problem, there is a huge lack of regional thinking in Albania proper. A part from Greek for immigration, very few try to learn slavic languages, unless necessity. And that only widens the gap between you and us.

zg18 wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:Cakmak? Wasn't he Gorazhdi?

No , the guy that lived in Thessalonika , forget his name , i think it was Bundy or something.

Al Bundi? Yeah, yeah the lukewarm Albanian.

macedonian wrote:I've killed all my prejudices about Albania while driving through it (the whole of it, from Montenegro - to Macedonia) with my Hieromonk friend. I expected troubles, but had none.
Albanians are nice people (in Albania), not quite like those we have here (no offense intended really, but it's true).
Since then, whenever I go to Ohrid, I take a day or two and visit Pogradec and have some Ohrid trout (you can't get it here, it's forbidden by law).
And I always plan my visit on Sundays so that I can take the kids to Liturgy in the morning. The priest in Pogradec is one of the nicest guys I've met. A real Orthodox Christian, doesn't care about nationality, only cares about Christianity.
As it should be. Always comes to Sveti Naum on "Slavas" as well. Listening to the Liturgy in Albanian is quite a treat for me...

Having Albanian Catholic friends , i can see your point , Albanian Catholics from Kosovo in Zagreb are nothing like their Kosovo Muslim cousins.

It is horrific how religion used in wrong way can hurt and twist entire ethnic groups from their true self. This is not Islamophobia , i have a lot Muslim friends from Bosnia , this is about wrong practice of Islam that is being used by Albanian Muslim clergy in Kosovo and Macedonia , northern Albania.

IMHO Regional countries and Churches have to do everything to help fellow Albanian Christians to tame such practices , and integrate Albanians with others , it`s no good if Albanian people have siege mentality due to differences with Slavic and Greek neighbours (which is certainly case in Kosovo and Macedonia).

macedonian wrote:

zg18 wrote:Thank you for interesting and honest answer.

I mean , Albania should do more effort to familiarize neighbours about itself. News from Albania , honestly are perceived like news from India or South Africa.

Second problem , are Kosovo Albanians , with all respect to them , they are not doing Albanians from Albania like you any favor in the region (you are perceived through them by others) , and they are not of good reputation (Kanon of Leka Dukagjini , kanun , vendetta , organized crime , position of women , arranged marriages from childhood etc.).

I`m sorry if sound too uncomfortably honest  , but , what the hell , even forums like this we can use to understand each other and raise awareness about certain things.

I've killed all my prejudices about Albania while driving through it (the whole of it, from Montenegro - to Macedonia) with my Hieromonk friend. I expected troubles, but had none.
Albanians are nice people (in Albania), not quite like those we have here (no offense intended really, but it's true).
Since then, whenever I go to Ohrid, I take a day or two and visit Pogradec and have some Ohrid trout (you can't get it here, it's forbidden by law).
And I always plan my visit on Sundays so that I can take the kids to Liturgy in the morning. The priest in Pogradec is one of the nicest guys I've met. A real Orthodox Christian, doesn't care about nationality, only cares about Christianity.
As it should be. Always comes to Sveti Naum on "Slavas" as well. Listening to the Liturgy in Albanian is quite a treat for me...

Yeah but Korça and Pogradec are the best Albanians cities, people wise, if you get down to Tepelena, it's Ok, Saranda, they're all sellouts there, cheap bastards until you're in need. Then you have the Labs. Married one, never want to see them again.

As for the big difference, I guess that most of it boils down to an inferiority complex. Albanians in Albania have their own set of rules. Good, bad, they're ours and we know it ain't easy. The people you have, just don't want to be "oppressed", in the sense that evrything to them is oppression. You catch them stealing IN Albania, you're like Shkej you oppress us. They sell dope in Albania, you're like Macedonians, you oppress us. They abduct girls in Albania, it's ok we're brothers...

And this doesn't mean Albanians are angels. To the contrary. But at least we can't blame oppression at any given moment.

KoTeMoRe wrote:Now you know why with all our "might" we did nothing to help those idiots during Communism. It changed drastically when Enver died, but generally Yugoslavs didn't seem to notice that input. However what broke the balance was the fact that Yugoslavia went down and we were akin to Zimbabwe and stashed with weapons. Primitive, yes, but an AK is and AK..

He he i remember reading when Kosovo guy visited Albania in early 90`es when Red Star from Belgrade won European championship , he was totally shocked that Red Star had many fans in Albania.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Yeah but Korça and Pogradec are the best Albanians cities, people wise, if you get down to Tepelena, it's Ok, Saranda, they're all sellouts there, cheap bastards until you're in need. Then you have the Labs. Married one, never want to see them again. As for the big difference, I guess that most of it boils down to an inferiority complex. Albanians in Albania have their own set of rules. Good, bad, they're ours and we know it ain't easy. The people you have, just don't want to be "oppressed", in the sense that evrything to them is oppression. You catch them stealing IN Albania, you're like Shkej you oppress us. They sell dope in Albania, you're like Macedonians, you oppress us. They abduct girls in Albania, it's ok we're brothers...
And this doesn't mean Albanians are angels. To the contrary. But at least we can't blame oppression at any given moment.

Strange, the Macedonians in Ohrid are the worst lot of Macedonians you could find...

Back on-top, a new video:

macedonian wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Yeah but Korça and Pogradec are the best Albanians cities, people wise, if you get down to Tepelena, it's Ok, Saranda, they're all sellouts there, cheap bastards until you're in need. Then you have the Labs. Married one, never want to see them again. As for the big difference, I guess that most of it boils down to an inferiority complex. Albanians in Albania have their own set of rules. Good, bad, they're ours and we know it ain't easy. The people you have, just don't want to be "oppressed", in the sense that evrything to them is oppression. You catch them stealing IN Albania, you're like Shkej you oppress us. They sell dope in Albania, you're like Macedonians, you oppress us. They abduct girls in Albania, it's ok we're brothers...
And this doesn't mean Albanians are angels. To the contrary. But at least we can't blame oppression at any given moment.

Strange, the Macedonians in Ohrid are the worst lot of Macedonians you could find...

Back on-top, a new video:

Jesus these were hand picked. Same haircut, same demeanor. I liked the Qjifsha Nonën (F. your mother) from a Macedonian policeman? very eloquently put. Anyway, this aren't the Islamist garabage back in the late 2000. Thank God these are just mobsters.

zg18 wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:Now you know why with all our "might" we did nothing to help those idiots during Communism. It changed drastically when Enver died, but generally Yugoslavs didn't seem to notice that input. However what broke the balance was the fact that Yugoslavia went down and we were akin to Zimbabwe and stashed with weapons. Primitive, yes, but an AK is and AK..

He he i remember reading when Kosovo guy visited Albania in early 90`es when Red Star from Belgrade won European championship , he was totally shocked that Red Star had many fans in Albania.

Well, we all become Balkanic when football is concerned. Especially when the Champion's Cup was at stake.

@KoTeMoRe

About language and Albanian culture, Zagreb has good tradition when it comes to Albanology (Milan Šufflay- one of the founders).

Belgrade is the eldest when it comes to Albanology as science ( founded by Henrik Barić in 1920 ) , ironically , Serbian politicians never found Albanology as serious tool for solving their Albanian issue although they had world top hacks when it comes to Albanian language , literature and culture. Big mistake for their part.

zg18 wrote:@KoTeMoRe

About language and Albanian culture, Zagreb has good tradition when it comes to Albanology (Milan Šufflay- one of the founders).

Belgrade is the eldest when it comes to Albanology as science ( founded by Henrik Barić in 1920  ) , ironically , Serbian politicians never found Albanology as serious tool for solving their Albanian issue although they had world top hacks when it comes to Albanian language , literature and culture. Big mistake for their part.

But there is nothing more that could have been done during Yugo times...FFS Kosovar Albanophones had everything, WE didn't. They could emmigrate, make money, come back. We were stuck in Albania. I've exchanged very rude words with a Kosovar acquintance in 1986 in Paris, regarding how we were free, and their brother weren't. Shit yeah, free...My per diem was 8 USD/60 franks then. I couldn't spend it without ticket. I had a zampoit/political bug on my ass all day. He had a E28 5 series, just paid half a year of my income at the table and basically was dressed like my big boss and all he had was a small construction business.

I told him to come by next time, so he could witness freedom. Understand me, I wouldn't have changed places with him, but the facts were there. HE was free, I wasn't. yet he had this huge inferiority complex...you can't help those people.

This has developed in to an interesting thread indeed!

KoTeMoRe wrote:Jesus these were hand picked. Same haircut, same demeanor. I liked the Qjifsha Nonën (F. your mother) from a Macedonian policeman? very eloquently put. Anyway, this aren't the Islamist garabage back in the late 2000. Thank god these are just mobsters.

As I said: great to have someone that understands Albanian to decipher things for us. Though even I understand Chifcha Nonen! (Ta Chifcha Nonen!) many Albanians use it here. LOL
Remember that some of the Policemen are ethnic Albanians. One of the fallen also is. And many of the people (Albanians) had only good words to say about the Police. Quite surprising!
Many Albanians here are also confused as to what's going on...at least those that comment on Macedonian forums.

Though, still - the Americans' move is the most logical answer to me...even if the perpetrators are mere criminals (even they don't make a move without an American say-so).

magnumcromagnon wrote:This has developed in to an interesting thread indeed!

All Balkan threads do.

Latest info is that the captured terrorists have spilled the beans on where they've hidden some of the other weapons, and the cops have recovered them.
Quite an interesting arsenal it seems. Will try to keep you posted on the latest, but the interesting thing is that most of the AKs they used were of UKRAINIAN origin.
Doesn't have to mean anything, since we don't know the batch number or year of production, but is interesting in the current stand of things.
Looking at the anti-government protests outside right now...they're protesting and asking for the government to resign...

______________
Edit:
KoTeMoRe, what do you make of this?
Would be grateful for your insight on the comments as well mate.

macedonian wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:Jesus these were hand picked. Same haircut, same demeanor. I liked the Qjifsha Nonën (F. your mother) from a Macedonian policeman? very eloquently put. Anyway, this aren't the Islamist garabage back in the late 2000. Thank god these are just mobsters.

As I said: great to have someone that understands Albanian to decipher things for us. Though even I understand Chifcha Nonen! (Ta Chifcha Nonen!) many Albanians use it here. LOL
Remember that some of the Policemen are ethnic Albanians. One of the fallen also is. And many of the people (Albanians) had only good words to say about the Police. Quite surprising!
Many Albanians here are also confused as to what's going on...at least those that comment on Macedonian forums.

Though, still - the Americans' move is the most logical answer to me...even if the perpetrators are mere criminals (even they don't make a move without an American say-so).

magnumcromagnon wrote:This has developed in to an interesting thread indeed!

All Balkan threads do.

I agree that these people being only wannabees and mere political pawns doesn't help understanding who, what, why. And from the videos the police hasn't stepped over any line. The civilians could have even tipped the police. Especially when you see the large Kosovar presence among the captured.

IMO this smells very bad. Foreign backed move, thwarted by Serbian/Kosovar tipoff in order to both get rid of undesirable elements and prove "loyal" to the guys up West? Very Byzantine, very likely. Yes one one of the fallen is ethnic Albanian. And clearly given the accents in Albanian from the Police, there are ethnic Albanians in the task force. There's even an asshole former policeman among the captured.

How about what's being said in the link?
Can't seem to Google-translate it for some reason.

macedonian wrote:Latest info is that the captured terrorists have spilled the beans on where they've hidden some of the other weapons, and the cops have recovered them.
Quite an interesting arsenal it seems. Will try to keep you posted on the latest, but the interesting thing is that most of the AKs they used were of UKRAINIAN origin.
Doesn't have to mean anything, since we don't know the batch number or year of production, but is interesting in the current stand of things.
Looking at the anti-government protests outside right now...they're protesting and asking for the government to resign...

______________
Edit:
KoTeMoRe, what do you make of this?
Would be grateful for your insight on the comments as well mate.

What did I tell you before?

For the others: The title says, we were betrayed by some inhabitants.

In brief the NLA idiots complain that they were not trying to fight (cell was being setup) but that some people from the neighbourhood invited the police to "slay them, perform a massacre). They appologize for the damage and loss of life bla bla. But that some of the neighbours should apologize too (lunacy 100%).

Now the juicy part.

They allegate that the band was acting alone on the field and that there was no other group. Furthermore there is an imbroglio with two other groups "AKSH- Armata Kombëtare Shqiptare"  and "GRI-Garda e Republikes se Illirides" who are said to have left the premises from the start. So there too seems to be a feud brewing and people tipping off and setting off.

Other than that they say the same old crap. We have weapons, we have men, we are ready yada yada yada.

The Sokoli guy is Commander Sokoli, real name Sami Ukshini. Asshole of the worst kind, Specialty rape.

They threaten Macedonia of retaliation and ask for Kosovar and Albanian support both in kind and regarding the situation with the "Foreign" powers and Institutions.

The fight continues etc. A lot of bullshit, reads like written by a 15 year old on Xanax. Clearly there will be other actions, but this has hit them.

If the AK's are from UA this means only one thing, we're going to see these popping up in near future.

I will translate the article fully by tomorrow.

Oh and this is who these fvckers are/ It's in Albanian, but I will translate.

http://lajmi.net/ja-kush-jane-kosovaret-e-dorezuar-mbreme-ne-kumanove/

MOst of them are from the Dukagjin AO. Kosovo. Most are Ramush Haradinaj associates...yes, the guy who was indicted and that Thaci wanted to hang dry. Mafia wars in Kosovo, kill innocents in Macedonia. TIB.

Thanks.
And, yes, I share the sentiment - we'll see more of this in the future.
Sponsored by "the truest democracies®" in the west. Same as it ever was.
People do seem to be waking up here though. On many forums people prefer to go against America even to our own detriment.
Hopefully, many more people around the world will awake, and US power will weaken.

Last comment from a Macedonian forum I follow: Answering the question: "What did the Russians ever do for us"? - What should they do?! What did we ever do for them?! The Russians need not help us, we'll take care of it by ourselves...at least the Russians are not AGAINST us like the Americans...

______
Edit:
Now the claims of police brutality have surfaced (about those in captivity).
I'm sure the Americans will ask for a thorough investigation...
'Hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

You know, as juicy as the American connection could be in all this - not every event that happens in the world is neccesserily connected to great power politics or actions, even if it appears to benefit one or more or them, even if they are quite convenient.

A lot of things just happen. Gavrilo Princip just happened. Lenin and OBL just happened too; even though they certainly used other powers to achieve their own goals in their time.

CIA's Team B made that mistake in analysis back in the 80's, they got carried away and started suspecting Soviet involvment in literarly every single terrorist organization or insurrection in the world; even the ones that clearly had nothing to do with them - like the PLO and Provisional IRA.

My advice to you fellas is not to get carried away until we have more verified facts, too.

flamming_python wrote:You know, as juicy as the American connection could be in all this - not every event that happens in the world is neccesserily connected to great power politics or actions, even if it appears to benefit one or more or them, even if they are quite convenient.

A lot of things just happen. Gavrilo Princip just happened. Lenin and OBL just happened too; even though they certainly used other powers to achieve their own goals in their time.

CIA's Team B made that mistake in analysis back in the 80's, they got carried away and started suspecting Soviet involvment in literarly every single terrorist organization or insurrection in the world; even the ones that clearly had nothing to do with them - like the PLO and Provisional IRA.

My advice to you fellas is not to get carried away until we have more verified facts, too.

40-60 guys armed to the teeth with .50 cals and various other armaments and go unnoticed by the main spy entity IN the region and none of the guys would know anything about? Yes sure, this is as plausible as Croatian shipment of weapons to Saudi Arabia getting lost in Syria and Croatia knowing nothing about.

Remember this is the Balkans, such an op, with so many holes, that still goes unnoticed all that while the US are trying hard to derail Turkish Stream? Coincidence...OK.

What Turkish stream has to do with this?

Best of luck Makedonac !

Hopefully all western backed terrorist will be shoot.

Viktor wrote:Best of luck Makedonac !

Hopefully all western backed terrorist will be shoot.

It's only the beginning of the troubles coming to the Balkans, just recently the pro-NATO crackpot took control of the Croatian govt., she may end up being just as bad as Porkyshenko...she's already trying carve up Serbia even more so, creating another micro-state in Northern Serbia made up of ethnic Hungarians...it's up to Viktor Orban to prevent this!

Hannibal Barca wrote:What Turkish stream has to do with this?

This!

http://sputniknews.com/business/20150414/1020873717.html

Mother***s, it's all about the stream isn't it. From what i read above looks like Serbia might be targeted too, then what, Hungary?

You know, as juicy as the American connection could be in all this - not every event that happens in the world is neccesserily connected to great power politics or actions, even if it appears to benefit one or more or them, even if they are quite convenient.

Possibly, but let's not forget that truth is stranger than fiction. To use another saying directly related, "follow the money"- who would benefit most in the current geostrategical situation from unrest in Macedonia? Who supported and armed the KLA, who created the Kosovo abomination, not to mention stirring and fanning the yugoslavian disintegration? Given their history, it is wiser that they (the americans) must be assumed guilty until proven otherwise, and not the other way around.

mack8 wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:What Turkish stream has to do with this?

This!

http://sputniknews.com/business/20150414/1020873717.html

Mother***s, it's all about the stream isn't it. From what i read above looks like Serbia might be targeted too, then what, Hungary?

You know, as juicy as the American connection could be in all this - not every event that happens in the world is neccesserily connected to great power politics or actions, even if it appears to benefit one or more or them, even if they are quite convenient.

Possibly, but let's not forget that truth is stranger than fiction. To use another saying directly related, "follow the money"- who would benefit most in the current geostrategical situation from unrest in Macedonia? Who supported and armed the KLA, who created the Kosovo abomination, not to mention stirring and fanning the yugoslavian disintegration? Given their history, it is wiser that they (the americans) must be assumed guilty until proven otherwise, and not the other way around.

Ironically this may cause a 'Balkinization' of the Pan-Turkic diaspora. If current issues end up preventing the Turkish Stream, they're literally preventing the greater influence of pro-Turkish influence in the EU/World. Pan-Turks will need to make a choice, either drop the KLA like a bad habit for their stupidity, or lose a chance of a lifetime to seriously hold a trump card over the EU. Either way one side or another of the Pan-Turkic forces will end up getting a raw deal in the end, or possibly both sides leaving in bad shape.

Viktor wrote:Best of luck Makedonac !
Hopefully all western backed terrorist will be shoot.

Thanks stari. Doesn't really seem so...leave it to our politicians to fcuk things up (as per usual):

The epilogue of the whole thing so far is the resignation of the Minister of Interior and the DBK (Secret Police and Counterintelligence). The guy who ran the DBK was also the cousin of our PM (such is nepotism here).
Now, even the opposition media are claiming>> (Macedonian) that the resignations follow a secret meeting with "a western" Ambassador, and was secured by "intercepted conversations presented to the persons involved" by this unspecified western Ambassador. The opposition media is absolutely gloating about this! Such is the life of puppets.
The pathetic pro-Govt. media claim that "this is a very smart tactical move by the Prime Minister", but seems obvious (at least to me it does) that this Government is about to fall. So I don't think any more terrorist attack are now needed.
And, FP - call me a cynic, but I don't really believe in coincidences in geopolitics... I think what couldn't be achieved by terrorism, was achieved by good ol' blackmailing. I'm sure they've got SERIOUS dirt on "our" politicos, since their hands are as dirty as it gets.