The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

flamming_python wrote:Wouldn't be so sure about that.

Care to elaborate?

I'm personally happy that they are further away from EU. There is enough khokhols around Europe and now Romanians and Bulgarians will spread like a disease.
I only wonder what would those Ukrainian patriots and nationalists would sing when their beloved EU start imposing faggotry and love for EU and it's values.
Not saying that to live under Russian feet is good, but EU is not a effing christ saviour and it's values are contradictory to me as a patriot.

Regular wrote:I'm personally happy that they are further away from EU. There is enough khokhols around Europe and now Romanians and Bulgarians will spread like a disease.
I only wonder what would those Ukrainian patriots and nationalists would sing when their beloved EU start imposing faggotry and love for EU and it's values.
Not saying that to live under Russian feet is good, but EU is not a effing christ saviour and it's values are contradictory to me as a patriot.

   Now, now, Regular, EU ain't that bad.
The only thing I don't like about it, is that liberal-communism is the only allowed ideology there. Like any of those two entities separately aren't causing enough trouble   

Not bad - until now. I don't have much love for it. EU patriotism is one idiocy that makes my boil. It supposed to be economic union not a re-education camp.
Control where it is needed less and no control when it comes to funds. EU Projects are cool to, easiest way to wash money, now gays, before it was with gypsies.

Regular wrote:Not bad - until now. I don't have much love for it. EU patriotism is one idiocy that makes my boil. It supposed to be economic union not a re-education camp.
Control where it is needed less and no control when it comes to funds. EU Projects are cool to, easiest way to wash money, now gays, before it was with gypsies.

And what's so surprising about that?
Find 10 similarities:
http://www.zam.it/images/6582/3.jpg
http://europeanconference.org/wp-content/uploads/33a66c14f9cfc12d602d7fa2269fe6d6.jpeg
 

etaepsilonk wrote:

flamming_python wrote:Wouldn't be so sure about that.

Care to elaborate?

1) In terms of the industrial investments - it's going to take a decade or two to get that investment back, maybe more in some cases. There are other places to put money into, that will turn a profit quicker.
2) That money can be put into Russian industries instead, which will employ Russian citizens on Russian territory
3) The Russian-Ukrainian industries that will be funded will in some cases turn out to be competitors for existing Russian industries; not necessarily a bad thing but they might steal some of their market and then both could turn out to not be unviable in the face of international competition.
4) The Ukraine is still not out of the woods in terms of the risk for default, or for a worsening of its economy. The Ukrainian economy is still performing poorly and thus there is a danger that Russia could lose those investments into Ukrainian securities that it's making
5) The country is highly politically unstable and a new anti-Russian government could very well be elected into power in 2015. This could quickly bring an end to military-industrial co-operation, lead to a loss of investments by Russia into gearing up Ukrainian production, and whatever technology or schematics have been shared with the Ukrainians can then promptly be shared by the Ukrainians with the West.

flamming_python,

(1)-(4) are normal business risks and scenarios that arise always when you have to take a tough decision. They are valid observations but the good thing about them is that even if the investment backfire due to such reasons you will still gonna get a good proportion of your money back and enough compensation for the ones you will not get back as well. Let alone the political and diplomatic and even humanitarian incentives. In other words, is a risk you might lose but it will not turn into a disaster.

(5) is in an other level altogether, because in such a case you are threatened with total disaster, but here comes the argument that if needed Russian, Chinese and CIS investments in Ukraine are so valuable and irreplaceable that if a new pro-Western government decide to "play the hero" then East can guarantee this traitors that Holodomor will be a walk in the park...

Well Russia has several options with the Ukraine:-

1)Give up/or let the Ukraine become part of the EU.

This means the Ukraine in Nato, persecution of many Russians, a gigantic threat to national secuirity. MUch more American meddling. Likely they then target Belarus and the Caucuses and Russian republics, even Moscow etc, with American stooges. Result? Disaster.

2)Some sort of partition of the UKraine.
Losing part of Kiev? A disaster. Its Russia's historical heart. Would be an immense blow to Russia.
Losing Odessa would be terrible too, for various reasons.

Losing the partly pro EU Eastern Ukraine? Again, not at all good. The Carpathian area is an excellent strategic defence for Russia and pro Russian UKrainian areas. Additionally, allowing this area to separate would also mean a victory for the "ethnic cleansers" of the Great Patriotic War. The Nazi supporters in Lvov weren't murdered in their millions by the Nazis. But the Russians were. If it hadn't been for WW2, the make up of the area would have been much more pro Russia, I am sure.

3)Re-Russifying and investing in the UKraine on Russia's terms.
Russia and the Ukraine have a compatibility in industrial, tech, cultural, language and religious terms.
Yes the Far West is a little different. However, I believe that it is compatibility that should win the day.

If countries prosper economically by cooperation, there is nothing to gain by fighting, bickering etc.
France and Germany, ENgland and the US aren't "best friends" but they have shared interests, enhanced by cooperation. Rather than being rivals, what is good for one, is/can be good for the other.

Russian influence needs a "critical mass" in the world. Put simply that means the CIS/CU needs  a particular population to function powerfully. There's near enough 50m people in the UKraine.

I think much of the frustration in the Ukraine is because basically, the Ukraine is currently dirt poor, experiencing the worst of all worlds -lack of cooperation with either east or west.

A big aspect will be sensitivity on tech matters. But the US does it with China, and protects its tech.
I'm sure RUssia can do the same. If the Ukraine intends to be stupid, then the solution is simply. Russia can move its factories east. If the Ukraine benefits, and sees prosperity, it has no need to be stupid. The EU and US realise this is not a battle they are on strong ground in.

Rogozin heheheee

following the geopolityka.org website:

'The pacification of the situation in Ukraine enters its final phase. President Viktor Yanukovych dismissed those colleagues who are fulfilling previous, liberal and moderate pro-Western course administration and announces the final dissertation of the illegal activities of the opposition.

Amongst dismissed were the head of the presidential administration Sergei Levochkin (shifted to an advisor). Analysts are betting on his successor hawk - Home Minister Vitaly Zaharchenko, a follower of EuroMaidan endurance trial. Also left his position a commander of land forces, General Gennady Vorobyov, and (according to unconfirmed signals yet) spokeswoman Daria Chepak, president and director of the National Institute for Strategic Studies Andrey Yermolayev. The President signed a number of laws, including the budget for the year 2014 (including, among others, the absorption of Russian aid), but also amended the Law on the Judicial System and Status of Judges and regulations regarding "additional measures to protect the security of citizens," raising the penalties for participation in mass actions and in order to restrict access to the Internet resources which are used to disseminate information contrary to the state. Also tightened criminal liability for insult and destruction of war memorials and national monuments (which received a blow in the street politics especially in the implementation of "Svoboda", directed against the commemoration of the share of Ukrainians in Great Patriotic War).

Changes are widely regarded as evidence of strengthening the position of President V. Yanukovych, who felt at last that he has freed his hands and could reach the decisive steps as for the organization's own facilities, by getting rid of defeatists and people who didn't prove themselves during the crisis situation and realities of geopolitical reorientation, as well as are no longer able to manage with street "cat music" and an online campaign against him for a year before the presidential election. The opposition will join them as usual divided and quarreling, while the camp of regionalists - is just being re-consolidated.

It is probably not accidental, the date these changes are being made. On 18th January Russia and Ukraine are celebrating the anniversary of their union - Treaty of Pereyaslav. This is a clear signal that the internal and external policies of Kiev again begin to achieve inner harmony.

For those, for whom that day in January 1654 (rightly!) has bad connotation, it should be recalled that the agreement signed Tsar Alexei Romanov - Polish-speaking and would-be ruler of the Polish kingdom, once designated as the successor to the inept John II Casimir. Anniversary is therefore doubly instructive for Poles not to stand across the waves of history - but rather flow with them ​​and to claim their own benefits. Just as for his people chose Viktor Yanukovych.'

source:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?client=tmpg&depth=1&hl=en&langpair=pl|en&rurl=translate.google.com&u=http://geopolityka.org/info-ecag/2630-info-ecga-janukowycz-wymienia-ekipe&usg=ALkJrhhHB1S3hqvwC3YKCnaih05DH04LhQ

Good stuff....another nail in the coffin of EU-Ukraine

This site has a pretty good news coverage on Ukrainian protests (but with anti-Yanuk agenda):
http://www.kyivpost.com/



The whole situation is beggining to look like the 1993 Russian constitutional crisis...

Looks like we're gonna lose that $3 billion that Putin already (generously) transferred to them. Nice one Puts.. Good thing the rest of the $15 bil is still in place; our politicians at least had enough sense to not transfer everything at once.

The Ukraine is a massive drag

etaepsilonk wrote:
The whole situation is beggining to look like the 1993 Russian constitutional crisis...

Agreed. Is there anybody who can try to predict the overall outcome? For Russia didn't end well..at least six years of deep shit.
More important: are there any new politicians in the east and south of the country capable of founding a new political party and nominating a strong candidate for the 2015 election? Today's political landscape seems dominated by weak party and candidates, with the notable exception of the nazis, you know...

Yanukovich simply clears the last resistance. The game won in favor of Russia.
You guys have no faith and you are ready to panic and fly. Inferiority complex in action.

The first casualties are in and ultimatums issued.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25853329

What made the Orange revolution so successful was its non-violent nature. Ukraine won't tolerate a heavy hand.

Bitchko needs to stick to boxing.

I would have thought supporting the Oranges (turned out well eh) would have backed him off from politics.

TR1 wrote:Bitchko needs to stick to boxing.

I would have thought supporting the Oranges (turned out well eh) would have backed him off from politics.

He is only ridiculing himself and damaging its own reputation.

Either he got hit already to often against his head or not enough to correct his stupid political position which only damages Ukraine.

I'm not sure if he is really that naive to think EU is good for Ukraine or just bribed by banks to be a prominent fool to polish the damaged EU image.

Werewolf wrote:

TR1 wrote:Bitchko needs to stick to boxing.

I would have thought supporting the Oranges (turned out well eh) would have backed him off from politics.

He is only ridiculing himself and damaging its own reputation.

Either he got hit already to often against his head or not enough to correct his stupid political position which only damages Ukraine.

I'm not sure if he is really that naive to think EU is good for Ukraine or just bribed by banks to be a prominent fool to polish the damaged EU image.

a) Most of the political elite is indeed bribed

b) Many former Soviets have inferiority complex after the resolution of the USSR and follow West blindly

c) A huge number of Ukrainians don't care about Ukraine, they simply want to fly the country no matter what

b) Finally there is a certain number of retards like in every country that they don't see that Eastern capital totally controls Ukraine and no matter what the game is over.

etaepsilonk wrote:This site has a pretty good news coverage on Ukrainian protests (but with anti-Yanuk agenda):
http://www.kyivpost.com/

Its as rubbish as it can be. That site is funded by the US and it roars fire at everything that is not in line with their thinking which means EU/NATO.

Its the hart of US propaganda machine in Ukraine.

Werewolf wrote:

TR1 wrote:Bitchko needs to stick to boxing.

I would have thought supporting the Oranges (turned out well eh) would have backed him off from politics.

He is only ridiculing himself and damaging its own reputation.

Either he got hit already to often against his head or not enough to correct his stupid political position which only damages Ukraine.

I'm not sure if he is really that naive to think EU is good for Ukraine or just bribed by banks to be a prominent fool to polish the damaged EU image.

Of course he's been bribed. Well 'bribed' as in recruited by German intelligence with the support of the EU and US. He's a German citizen FFS.
The West doesn't even bother to hide it when they install people in power. A lot of the Baltic leaders had/still have Canadian, Swedish, etc... citizenship. Poland's foreign minister Radek Sikorsky, basically lived and studied in England all throughout the 80s. Yushchenko's wife is American. Saakashvilli studied in Columbia and worked throughout Europe. Navalny took classes at Yale (same university as George. W. Bush attended).
Like I said - no-one bothers to hide it; just follow the foreign links. If a prominent Russian/CIS activist or politician studied, worked, has close relatives from, or has citizenship in a Western country - than there is a good likelihood that they are a Western agent. Quadruple points if they are published, quoted and highlighted in Western media - actually not quadruple points; it's pretty much a dead giveaway.

Hannibal Barca wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

TR1 wrote:Bitchko needs to stick to boxing.

I would have thought supporting the Oranges (turned out well eh) would have backed him off from politics.

He is only ridiculing himself and damaging its own reputation.

Either he got hit already to often against his head or not enough to correct his stupid political position which only damages Ukraine.

I'm not sure if he is really that naive to think EU is good for Ukraine or just bribed by banks to be a prominent fool to polish the damaged EU image.

a) Most of the political elite is indeed bribed

b) Many former Soviets have inferiority complex after the resolution of the USSR and follow West blindly

c) A huge number of Ukrainians don't care about Ukraine, they simply want to fly the country no matter what

b) Finally there is a certain number of retards like in every country that they don't see that Eastern capital totally controls Ukraine and no matter what the game is over.

QFT

To Viktor:
I think, I wrote that the site is for news, not political BS.

To zino:
Maybe, march to Kiev?   

Hannibal Barca wrote:Yanukovich simply clears the last resistance. The game won in favor of Russia.
You guys have no faith and you are ready to panic and fly. Inferiority complex in action.

AhrAhrAhr! Hannibal, you always deliver!  
However, here it's not a matter of faith but of facts. Could you share your vision about Ukraine until and immediatly after the 2015 presidential election? Because I can see only a big pile of shit (I'm talking from a pro-russian perspective).

I am shocked that you live in Northern Italy and you are pessimistic. I mean I realize how mighty EU looks from outside like USSR in the 80s but those of us who live inside we more or less realize that we are about to step into a chaotic situation.

FACT IS that Russian and Chinese investments control Ukraine's fate.
FACT IS that the the only loans Ukraine can get is from Russia and probably China but certainly not from EU
FACT IS that Russia is by far the biggest trading partner of Ukraine both export and import wise and China is in the process of being the second biggest (if they are not already, I am not sure right now)
FACT IS that pro-Western traitors acknowledge that once they sign with EU they will have to ask for IMF loans pretty much instantly, and we all now what IMF means, don't we?
FACT IS that EU is in a shitty position? Are we gonna survive? I really don't think so, and every time an emerging economy goes up a new nail is placed in our coffin.
FACT IS that opposition in Ukraine is divided and can be counter bribed as is so common in Ukrainian mentality
FACT IS that opposition's biggest party is in disarray  and Klitchko and the rest still come from a very slow percentage in the elections
FACT IS that demonstrations lost steam after a while in December as Yanukovic and his ministers did the right moves and expose EU's inability to provide immediate economic help
FACT IS that the new demonstrations started after governments new regulations have a purpose to let the chaos hang on and not to succeed anything. Opposition memorandums are completely ridiculous, they don't have more that a few troublemakers anymore and Yanukovich control his ministers his partly and former-PMs very well.

From all this and much more I expect that Ukraine will remain afloat until 2015, Yanukovich will strengthen his position as the only trustworthy solution, China's and Russia's huge investments and support will give prestige to the government, May's EU elections will bring MANY far-right pro-Russian MPs to the parliament and expose more the division inside EU and the last remaining players of the opposition will be either bribed (like what I expect for this chocolate guy I forgot his name) either undermined or exposed like Klitchko or will submit like Timoshenko.
With all this in sight I expect the pro-Russian government to rise EVEN STRONGER after 2015's elections.

Thank you for your reply. I want to underline that I didn't want to be sarcastic or something. For sure you have noticed that my English is a little ehm...embarassing. You provided me a good laugh with the "ready to panic and fly" allegory. About pessimism, I think you are right. It's the Zeitgeist here in Italy, and probably I'm not able to distance me from it.